I'd rather have Goins than Tulo at SS for 2016+. AINEC.

[Sammy225]

Well this thread officially got derailed and surprise look who is in the middle of it......

[Rajais Mitten]

crying for mods doesn't help. Turning this into a legit baseball conversation is what stops these guys from starting more threads. Once people learn this the forum improves. Barring that you completely change the subject and the thread dies of natural causes.

 

Could always just implement an 100 post minimum before you can start a thread that way you can get rid of many people who make multiple accounts to start new threads.

[TheHurl]

Well this thread officially got derailed and surprise look who is in the middle of it......

 

f***ing Cyborg

[Nabru]

Could always just implement an 100 post minimum before you can start a thread that way you can get rid of many people who make multiple accounts to start new threads.

 

Not a bad idea. But what do you do when posters rip off 100 spam posts within a 2 hour period?

 

I'll admit that I didn't help this topic one bit. There was a baseball discussion going on but we know who jumped in way over his head. It's like a 5 year old sitting down with his parents to discuss the economy. Yes, this an open forum for anyone to use, but at least think to yourself and ask if you really belong in a conversation you know nothing about.

[BigCecil]

1. Goins is a + glove who has improved his BB rate and overall offensive performance for a relatively short period of time.

 

2. Tulo is an established 5 WAR player who was struggling(for him) on O for a relatively short period of time with the Jays.

 

Troll post or not, making judgements about Goins as our fulltime SS > Tulo at this point is silly. Goins put up a 63 and 27 wRC+ in 2013 and 2014.

 

No disrespect to Goins, who has been doing a solid job 2015, but Tulo's worst offensively is probably still going to be much better than Goins over a season.

[FrozenRopes]

1. Goins is a + glove who has improved his BB rate and overall offensive performance for a relatively short period of time.

 

2. Tulo is an established 5 WAR player who was struggling(for him) on O for a relatively short period of time with the Jays.

 

Troll post or not, making judgements about Goins as our fulltime SS > Tulo at this point is silly. Goins put up a 63 and 27 wRC+ in 2013 and 2014.

 

No disrespect to Goins, who has been doing a solid job 2015, but Tulo's worst offensively is probably still going to be much better than Goins over a season.

 

This should be pinned

[Dick_Pole]

How about this.

 

The Jays keep Tulowitzki AND Goins. Then for the first time in about two decades us fans can go into an off-season without wondering what MIF will be taken out of the dustbin and put into a starting role at 2B/SS.

 

Whatever holes the Jays will have in the outfield or the starting rotation after 2015 is over will be a lot easier to fill in the current FA market or on the farm than going through the exercise of finding middle infielders again.

[Stangstag]

You're AA. It's July 2016. You're evaluating what kind of value Troy Tulowitzki's contract holds to the team relative to what his projected performance is... And Jose Reyes figures into that discussion?

 

Yes, because you are swapping 2.5 years of Reyes for 2.5 years of Tulo. A more important evaluation would be Tulowitzki's age 33-35 seasons for 54 million dollars. (After the Reyes contract would have been over)

[Stangstag]

How about this.

 

The Jays keep Tulowitzki AND Goins. Then for the first time in about two decades us fans can go into an off-season without wondering what MIF will be taken out of the dustbin and put into a starting role at 2B/SS.

 

Whatever holes the Jays will have in the outfield or the starting rotation after 2015 is over will be a lot easier to fill in the current FA market or on the farm than going through the exercise of finding middle infielders again.

 

Middle infield of Tulo-Travis with Goins as the bench guy/injury back-up.

[BTS]

Yes, because you are swapping 2.5 years of Reyes for 2.5 years of Tulo. A more important evaluation would be Tulowitzki's age 33-35 seasons for 54 million dollars. (After the Reyes contract would have been over)

 

No, you're not following the conversation.

[JoeCarter]

1. Goins is a + glove who has improved his BB rate and overall offensive performance for a relatively short period of time.

 

2. Tulo is an established 5 WAR player who was struggling(for him) on O for a relatively short period of time with the Jays.

 

Troll post or not, making judgements about Goins as our fulltime SS > Tulo at this point is silly. Goins put up a 63 and 27 wRC+ in 2013 and 2014.

 

No disrespect to Goins, who has been doing a solid job 2015, but Tulo's worst offensively is probably still going to be much better than Goins over a season.

 

Totally reasonable. The one element that is going un-acknowledged in the analysis is the small matter of $18 Million that would be used on a front of rotation guy (or elsewhere). It's a convenient strawman to assume that OP was saying merely ZOMG GOINS > TULO TROLLOLOLOL but that's just silly. Tulo is obv better than Goins and barring an injury, I'd bet on Tulo's WAR to be higher than Goins' in every year through 2020. The only argument worth considering is whether the Jays are better with [Goins+Travis+$18M] or with [Tulo+Goins/Travis]. And if you believe in WAR and cost-per-win calcs, I'm not even sure it's all that close. Market price prior to 2014 season was ~$6M/win. For Tulo's 0.5 win > Goins, we're paying $18M (or $36M / win), 6x above market.

[GeorgiaPeach]

Would you give free agent Tulo $100M right now for his age-31-35 seasons? I think of he's not currently a Blue Jay that poll goes something like 50/50 on this forum.

 

Didn't we just pay Buehrle pretty much the same and most of the forum sucked the cock of that deal.

[Trouba95]

Was LTR banned that he's creating all these alternate accounts?

[GeorgiaPeach]

Look at the Hanley and Sandoval contracts. Tulo is a much better player than both of those guys.

 

Dude, he never mentioned Hanley or Pablo.

[gruber92]

Guys, you all know how much i have been supporting the notion over the past two years that Goins can be an every day middle infielder for an MLB team if he had proper guidance and coaching regarding his offensive approach. I knew the tools were always there but just needed to be reconfigured a little bit. It seems like Brook Jacoby may have unlocked something with Goins and that's truly fantastic, but to pencil him in as the starting SS right now and dismiss Tulo (i know the contract is a huge factor) is premature. Tulo hasn't been given enough time in a new city and a new league. Some people just take longer to adapt to a new environment than others, especially given the fact he has been in Denver since he was drafted. I think it's fair to give Tulo until the ASB 2016 before making any assumptions.

[Governator]

I don't understand why there is even an argument happening here. It's ok to enjoy nice things. Goins will get a lot of play time next year, it's not a Tulo vs Goins argument, having cheap depth that can fill in multiple roles while providing > replacement level support is a thing of need for most teams, us included.

[GeorgiaPeach]

And to think, I got shredded all the time about youth movements and value.

[Masterbather]

Yes, because you are swapping 2.5 years of Reyes for 2.5 years of Tulo. A more important evaluation would be Tulowitzki's age 33-35 seasons for 54 million dollars. (After the Reyes contract would have been over)

 

So, if you think Tulo on the open market would be a $20 million player, combined, over the next two years ($10 mill per year) you are saying it's like him being a $32 million dollar player per year since you get the $10 million in value for two years plus the value of not paying Reyes $22 mill per year over that same term? Or am I misunderstanding your point?

[Boxcar]

Totally reasonable. The one element that is going un-acknowledged in the analysis is the small matter of $18 Million that would be used on a front of rotation guy (or elsewhere). It's a convenient strawman to assume that OP was saying merely ZOMG GOINS > TULO TROLLOLOLOL but that's just silly. Tulo is obv better than Goins and barring an injury, I'd bet on Tulo's WAR to be higher than Goins' in every year through 2020. The only argument worth considering is whether the Jays are better with [Goins+Travis+$18M] or with [Tulo+Goins/Travis]. And if you believe in WAR and cost-per-win calcs, I'm not even sure it's all that close. Market price prior to 2014 season was ~$6M/win. For Tulo's 0.5 win > Goins, we're paying $18M (or $36M / win), 6x above market.

 

Using the savings to pay for a free agent pitcher is an even worse use of funds.

[Boxcar]

And to think, I got shredded all the time about youth movements and value.

 

Yeah because being in first place with an older team is such a drag

[BTS]

Didn't we just pay Buehrle pretty much the same and most of the forum sucked the cock of that deal.

 

Buehrle earned every penny he was paid.

[Stangstag]

So, if you think Tulo on the open market would be a $20 million player, combined, over the next two years ($10 mill per year) you are saying it's like him being a $32 million dollar player per year since you get the $10 million in value for two years plus the value of not paying Reyes $22 mill per year over that same term? Or am I misunderstanding your point?

 

I'm saying we were stuck with Reyes anyways for 2016 and 2017 at 22 million a year. The evaluation in question should be whether or not AA believes Tulo to be worth 54 million from 2018-2020, since that's the extra money we are taking on past the Reyes contract we would have had anyways.

[Stangstag]

Buehrle earned every penny he was paid.

 

And I remember his contract being pretty ludicrous when he was first signed by Miami. Funny how baseball works

[Spanky99]

Buehrle earned every penny he was paid.

 

No + value, but yeah, he's earned his contract. You were against it initially, as was I, but Cooler Heads Prevail...

[Stangstag]

Guys, you all know how much i have been supporting the notion over the past two years that Goins can be an every day middle infielder for an MLB team if he had proper guidance and coaching regarding his offensive approach. I knew the tools were always there but just needed to be reconfigured a little bit. It seems like Brook Jacoby may have unlocked something with Goins and that's truly fantastic, but to pencil him in as the starting SS right now and dismiss Tulo (i know the contract is a huge factor) is premature. Tulo hasn't been given enough time in a new city and a new league. Some people just take longer to adapt to a new environment than others, especially given the fact he has been in Denver since he was drafted. I think it's fair to give Tulo until the ASB 2016 before making any assumptions.

 

I still don't think Goins is an everyday SS. He is perfect in the role he has now, bench guy and backup infielder.

[Spanky99]

I still don't think Goins is an everyday SS. He is perfect in the role he has now, bench guy and backup infielder.

 

He's a 25 guy, nothing more, we'll have to roll with that.

[BTS]

No + value, but yeah, he's earned his contract. You were against it initially, as was I, but Cooler Heads Prevail...

 

I was against giving up assets for him, but I'm pretty sure my comment at the time was that Buehrle would be the biggest addition of the three principal Miami pieces. I've always loved Papa Buehrle.

[Spanky99]

I was against giving up assets for him, but I'm pretty sure my comment at the time was that Buehrle would be the biggest addition of the three principal Miami pieces. I've always loved Papa Buehrle.

 

Same. Although JJ was a huge disappointment.

[Masterbather]

I'm saying we were stuck with Reyes anyways for 2016 and 2017 at 22 million a year. The evaluation in question should be whether or not AA believes Tulo to be worth 54 million from 2018-2020, since that's the extra money we are taking on past the Reyes contract we would have had anyways.

 

So if somebody offers you a player that you feel is worth $100 million through 2020, but has the same contract as Tulo, whereas you see Tulo as a player that, if you were to sign him to a contract, you would value him as no more than 70 million over the same period, how does Reyes money factor into the analysis? Would you make that deal, or not make that deal?

[fireballW]

But it absolutely does given the context of your point. Is Tulo's contract potentially an albatross. If the Jays signed him for that amount then the point you're making would have some merit. But they didn't, that has to be factored in because if the trade wasn't made we would paying 22 mil a year for a hyperactive slow no arm AAA ss

 

Wait... did you really just accuse Reyes of having no arm?