Mark Shapiro leading candidate to replace Beeston

[HERPDERP]

Poor LaCava. Showing loyalty to the organization but he's still 2nd fiddle.

[Laika]

Why are all Indian fans saying "good riddance?"

 

Because he's been a top dog there since 2002 and they haven't had a lot of success. Two playoff appearances + a 93 win team that didn't make the playoffs, but those brief successes were quickly forgotten.

 

It's hard to be consistently good when your team payroll is almost always in the bottom ~6 in the league.

[HERPDERP]

The Indians fanbase is pretty big too. Remember they had something like +500 consecutive sell outs? They are a sleeping giant, like the Jays. Maybe they need new ownership.

[o2cui2i]

Because he's been a top dog there since 2002 and they haven't had a lot of success. Two playoff appearances + a 93 win team that didn't make the playoffs, but those brief successes were quickly forgotten.

 

It's hard to be consistently good when your team payroll is almost always in the bottom ~6 in the league.

 

this coming off season will be very interesting. a lot of things changing.

 

 

Jays will have Buehrle, Navarro and Romero money to put into next season. is that enough to get price signed?

[o2cui2i]

The Indians fanbase is pretty big too. Remember they had something like +500 consecutive sell outs? They are a sleeping giant, like the Jays. Maybe they need new ownership.

 

they have a good fan base. I'm surprises they cant/wont spend more money.

[KingKat]

they have a good fan base. I'm surprises they cant/wont spend more money.

 

I don't really think that's the issue. I think they just aren't a very interesting FA destination at the moment. They are not unwilling to spend money. It's just that in their case, spending money means overpaying for second tier talent (Bourn, Swisher).

[o2cui2i]

I don't really think that's the issue. I think they just aren't a very interesting FA destination at the moment. They are not unwilling to spend money. It's just that in their case, spending money means overpaying for second tier talent (Bourn, Swisher).

 

not really sure why they paid so much for either of those guys. Hard to know without an inside viewpoint.

 

It's kind of like the jays, people say no one wants to come to TO as a FA. We don't know if that's true and if it has been true, making the playoffs would change that completely.

[dineke]

No one ever wants to go to cleveland. Even if they're winning.

[KingKat]

not really sure why they paid so much for either of those guys. Hard to know without an inside viewpoint.

 

It's kind of like the jays, people say no one wants to come to TO as a FA. We don't know if that's true and if it has been true, making the playoffs would change that completely.

 

I think it was just one of those "spend money to spend money" moves. It got them a lot of positive press and fan reaction. Mainstream media and casual fans love to see the willingness to spend money. They love the big splash. It was probably similar to the Jays in the off-season of 2012-2013 where a moribund franchise felt they badly needed to do something to drum up interest.

[RealAccountant]

Alex has acquired elite talent

[Dr Negative]

The Indians fanbase is pretty big too. Remember they had something like +500 consecutive sell outs? They are a sleeping giant, like the Jays. Maybe they need new ownership.

 

One of their problems it that their branding is simply an embarrassment in the year 2015. They need to go back to being the Cleveland Spiders.

[Brownie19]

I don't really think that's the issue. I think they just aren't a very interesting FA destination at the moment. They are not unwilling to spend money. It's just that in their case, spending money means overpaying for second tier talent (Bourn, Swisher).

 

It's actually a very similar market to Toronto from a fanbase / FA destination perspective.

[Brownie19]

As far as restocking the system quickly, wasn't that in large part because of the prior draft rules that got changed? Without type B free agency and an unlimited draft budget, have the Jays really been all that great at drafting the past couple of years? It will take AA much longer to fix the farm system now than it did in 2010-13.

 

There is some truth to this, but you also have to give AA credit for exposing the system to benefit the Jays.

[o2cui2i]

I think it was just one of those "spend money to spend money" moves. It got them a lot of positive press and fan reaction. Mainstream media and casual fans love to see the willingness to spend money. They love the big splash. It was probably similar to the Jays in the off-season of 2012-2013 where a moribund franchise felt they badly needed to do something to drum up interest.

 

I agree that the casuals just see them bringing in "name" brand players, but the long term fans don't like moves just for the excuse of making moves. If Buehrle hadn't held to his career norms that deal would have been a complete sack of s***. JJ, Reyes, Bumfiasco.... "shuddering" at the end of this year the jays end of that trade has run it's course.

 

I'm just glad we have a good team this year. We will see what we have going forward with new leadership. They will have money to spend next year. Maybe if we can make the division series this year they can attract a solid ace next year to go with Hutch, Stroman and Osuna.

 

I'd love them to keep price if they can get a "reasonable" deal, but I doubt the jays will give the years he will want.

[eastcoastjaysfan]

It's actually a very similar market to Toronto from a fanbase / FA destination perspective.

 

Lmao you cannot be serious. Cleveland is the laughingstock of America. Their entire economy is based on Lebron James.

[Laika]

I don't really think that's the issue. I think they just aren't a very interesting FA destination at the moment. They are not unwilling to spend money. It's just that in their case, spending money means overpaying for second tier talent (Bourn, Swisher).

 

Bourn and Swisher weren't even terrible contracts. Bourn instantly went from a 4+ WAR player to s*** after signing. Basically the same thing with Swisher. It's remarkable how bad Cleveland's FA luck has been. They finished 5 games back last year while Swisher and Bourn combined for -1.2 WAR. If those two have league average years, like they would have been projected to when they signed their contracts, then Cleveland possibly wins the division.

[BTS]

I don't really think that's the issue. I think they just aren't a very interesting FA destination at the moment. They are not unwilling to spend money. It's just that in their case, spending money means overpaying for second tier talent (Bourn, Swisher).

 

I actually really liked the Bourn and Swisher signings at the time. Thought they were low-risk bargains on pretty good players.

[Brownie19]

Lmao you cannot be serious. Cleveland is the laughingstock of America. Their entire economy is based on Lebron James.

 

reading and/or comprehension isn't you're strong suit eh?

 

Toronto and Cleveland are not desirable locations for free agents. See what Buehrle just said about TO. Toronto and Cleveland both have very strong fan bases. This shouldn't be so difficult.

[Brownie19]

I agree that the casuals just see them bringing in "name" brand players, but the long term fans don't like moves just for the excuse of making moves. If Buehrle hadn't held to his career norms that deal would have been a complete sack of s***. JJ, Reyes, Bumfiasco.... "shuddering" at the end of this year the jays end of that trade has run it's course.

 

I'm just glad we have a good team this year. We will see what we have going forward with new leadership. They will have money to spend next year. Maybe if we can make the division series this year they can attract a solid ace next year to go with Hutch, Stroman and Osuna.

 

I'd love them to keep price if they can get a "reasonable" deal, but I doubt the jays will give the years he will want.

 

Doesn't it all come down to the fact that Toronto isn't a place where free agents want to sign? We've basically had to trade for every elite player we have because even if we want to spend money, nobody will take it. Here's hoping that winning changes that...Buehrle needs to fly our flag all over the place too haha

[NotThatGuy]

I don't really think that's the issue. I think they just aren't a very interesting FA destination at the moment. They are not unwilling to spend money. It's just that in their case, spending money means overpaying for second tier talent (Bourn, Swisher).

 

 

Swisher was coming off 3 consecutive seasons where his Value was $25.5M or higher. They signed him for 4 years, $14M each. He just got injured and took a dive.

 

Bourn had 4 consecutive seasons where his Value was $26.6M or higher (including a $40.1M season the season before the Indians signed him). They signed him for 4 years, $12M each. He, too, just happened to tank.

[o2cui2i]

Doesn't it all come down to the fact that Toronto isn't a place where free agents want to sign? We've basically had to trade for every elite player we have because even if we want to spend money, nobody will take it. Here's hoping that winning changes that...Buehrle needs to fly our flag all over the place too haha

 

you have to win to get them to come. Late 80s and early 90s the jays had no trouble getting players to come. if players think the team can win they will sign on. If the jays can make the playoffs a couple times players will be taking the jays off of their no trade lists.

[NotThatGuy]

Lmao you cannot be serious. Cleveland is the laughingstock of America. Their entire economy is based on Lebron James.

 

 

http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/01/31/chris-davis-opens-up-about-his-adderall-suspension-it-was-a-moment-of-weakness/

[Boxcar]

I think it was just one of those "spend money to spend money" moves. It got them a lot of positive press and fan reaction. Mainstream media and casual fans love to see the willingness to spend money. They love the big splash. It was probably similar to the Jays in the off-season of 2012-2013 where a moribund franchise felt they badly needed to do something to drum up interest.

 

Bourn had just come off a 6 win season and had three seasons averaging 4 wins prior to that. I thought the contract was pretty savvy at the time but then Bourn fell apart as a player. Mysteriously stopped stealing bases and somehow stopped being really good on defense.

 

Swisher was a consistent 3-4 win player, then he fell apart too. I think the signings were bad in hindsight but at the time they seemed quite good. Just a couple of absolute worst case scenarios.

 

Oops, I see like 3 other people have said this. Sorry!

[Atothe]

Bourn had just come off a 6 win season and had three seasons averaging 4 wins prior to that. I thought the contract was pretty savvy at the time but then Bourn fell apart as a player. Mysteriously stopped stealing bases and somehow stopped being really good on defense.

 

Swisher was a consistent 3-4 win player, then he fell apart too. I think the signings were bad in hindsight but at the time they seemed quite good. Just a couple of absolute worst case scenarios.

 

I honestly thought Bourn was gonna flop.

[Brownie19]

I honestly thought Bourn was gonna flop.

 

Signing 30 year old guys who rely primarily on their speed (Reyes) never seems to work out. That said - it was very hard to argue with Bourns results the previous 3 years. As a minimum, you wouldn't expect such a sharp drop off (more like Reyes' decline I guess).

[reedjohnsonfan]

Signing 30 year old guys who rely primarily on their speed (Reyes) never seems to work out. That said - it was very hard to argue with Bourns results the previous 3 years. As a minimum, you wouldn't expect such a sharp drop off (more like Reyes' decline I guess).

 

Exactly. 29 other teams knew what Bourn's WAR was and had their own valuation of him. He either wasn't a fit or they realized exactly what you said, it was a bad contract the moment it got signed. Swisher's seemed ok, he's battled some injuries so there's still time for him to make a small comeback.

[glory]

Bourne and Swisher were not signed by Shapiro. At least he wasn't the GM at the time.

[KingKat]

Bourne and Swisher were not signed by Shapiro. At least he wasn't the GM at the time.

 

This came up in response to a 'why don't the Indians spend more' question. Wasn't actually being used to discuss Shapiro's record.

[Dick_Pole]

I'd love them to keep price if they can get a "reasonable" deal, but I doubt the jays will give the years he will want.

 

If I were the Jays I'd offer him one year at $30M+ and see if he bites. He might say yes because:

 

1. The 2016 team with him as an ace would have a very good chance to win.

2. With this offense he has a chance to pad his stats for a year then take that into free agency.

3. Any long-term contract he signs would likely be back loaded, he gets a huge pay day for 2016 under this scenario.

4. A one year delay on free agency shouldn't impact his ability to get a huge contract after that too much, unless he gets injured.

[KingKat]

a great late-offseason value buy

 

Sometimes it seems like the market has a knack for identifying duds before we do. I don't know if the bust rate on these kinds of signings is higher than on FA signings in general but it often seems that way. I would be interesting to look into that as a real (or possibly merely imagined) phenomenom.