Mark Beuhrle - HoF Material?

[Captain Adama]

No, I didn't make this thread after tonight, but this is a question that's been nipping at me for a while now.

 

I have a buddy whom lives in Chicago, this guy tells me how Mark Beuhrle is the greatest thing since sliced bread, and he deserves to go in the Hall of Fame no question. But I told him, that I don't think he will, he has the longevity, but he was never elite, he brings up the perfect game, no hitter, world series championship, yeah, yeah, yeah. (He's not real big on statistics) I brought up Hersheiser, whom isn't in the Hall, but has got basically the same "mystique" as Beuhrle does, and unlike Mark, has a stellar postseason resumé, which goes well with HoF voters. Plus, many mediocre pitchers have pitched no-hitters and perfect games.

 

I know fangraphs underrates him pretty hard, he's proven to outperform his DIPS (he's got a career WAR of 47 on FG) but BRef has him at a career WAR of 58, in Beuhrle's case I'd put more stock in BRef's eval over FG's. But still, it's below what I'd consider Hall worthy, (even if that term makes me cringe), I'm almost certain he doesn't, but does anyone else think Beuhrle has a shot?

[Daniel Labude]

No, I didn't make this thread after tonight, but this is a question that's been nipping at me for a while now.

 

I have a buddy whom lives in Chicago, this guy tells me how Mark Beuhrle is the greatest thing since sliced bread, and he deserves to go in the Hall of Fame no question. But I told him, that I don't think he will, he has the longevity, but he was never elite, he brings up the perfect game, no hitter, world series championship, yeah, yeah, yeah. (He's not real big on statistics) I brought up Hersheiser, whom isn't in the Hall, but has got basically the same "mystique" as Beuhrle does, and unlike Mark, has a stellar postseason resumé, which goes well with HoF voters. Plus, many mediocre pitchers have pitched no-hitters and perfect games.

 

I know fangraphs underrates him pretty hard, he's proven to outperform his DIPS (he's got a career WAR of 47 on FG) but BRef has him at a career WAR of 58, in Beuhrle's case I'd put more stock in BRef's eval over FG's. But still, it's below what I'd consider Hall worthy, (even if that term makes me cringe), I'm almost certain he doesn't, but does anyone else think Beuhrle has a shot?

 

If he pitches until he is 40-42 he might have a chance....really long shot to put it nicely

[Jimcanuck]

how many wins does he have?

[BigCecil]

Amazing career ...durability and consistency. He is a pitcher. But no.

[GD]

No, I didn't make this thread after tonight, but this is a question that's been nipping at me for a while now.

 

I have a buddy whom lives in Chicago, this guy tells me how Mark Beuhrle is the greatest thing since sliced bread, and he deserves to go in the Hall of Fame no question. But I told him, that I don't think he will, he has the longevity, but he was never elite, he brings up the perfect game, no hitter, world series championship, yeah, yeah, yeah. (He's not real big on statistics) I brought up Hersheiser, whom isn't in the Hall, but has got basically the same "mystique" as Beuhrle does, and unlike Mark, has a stellar postseason resumé, which goes well with HoF voters. Plus, many mediocre pitchers have pitched no-hitters and perfect games.

 

I know fangraphs underrates him pretty hard, he's proven to outperform his DIPS (he's got a career WAR of 47 on FG) but BRef has him at a career WAR of 58, in Beuhrle's case I'd put more stock in BRef's eval over FG's. But still, it's below what I'd consider Hall worthy, (even if that term makes me cringe), I'm almost certain he doesn't, but does anyone else think Beuhrle has a shot?

 

Fangraphs RA-9 WAR has him at 59.4 WAR

[Captain Adama]

Fangraphs RA-9 WAR has him at 59.4 WAR

 

I'm dumn, thanks GD, didn't know Fangraphs had that.

[GD]

bow down to our overlord Fangraphs.com

[FrozenRopes]

No as a pitcher, but he could manage himself in.

[RealAccountant]

No. Though he will break cy young record this year. 200lp 10 wins

 

He shouldn't retire

 

He can go to NL and still pitch for a few years

[Atothe]

No as a pitcher, but he could manage himself in.

 

If he plays for another 3 years he's in the convo

[jaysblue]

14 straight seasons of 200+ innings is quite remarkable, though doubt MB gets into the HofF as much as I like him. If he pitches until he gets 300 wins, then sure though doubt that happens.

[LTR]

Durability is great and everything but if Mark Buehrle gets into the HOF I'm going to go and take a big steaming dump in their lobby (during peak business hours).

[LTR]

14 straight seasons of 200+ innings is quite remarkable, though doubt MB gets into the HofF as much as I like him. If he pitches until he gets 300 wins, then sure though doubt that happens.

 

That would take another 10+ seasons, I'm going to go ahead and say no... that won't happen.

[Key22]

No. He doesn't seem to be good enough on the new stats front and he's certainly not good enough for the old timers on wins for a career or wins per season - he's never won 20 and he's never won the CY Young award - top ranking was 5th in voting - had that year been a year he had emulated ten straight years that might be something else.

 

Indeed, I would probably sooner vote for Jamie Moyer over Mark Beurhle - Moyer won 20 and 21 and from 1997-2003 had a pretty awesome run. He won 269 games vs 204 for MB and was in the CY Young running three times with a 4,5 and 6 place vote.

 

The Cy Young has a number of factors from what I can see - you have to have career numbers - you have to be considered elite when you pitched - so if you were the best pitcher for 5 years - even if the numbers are less pretty than another 5 year stretch - the fact that you were best at the time you pitched overrides just the pure numbers. Which may explain why some guys who get in have lesser numbers than other guys who didn't make it.

 

Morris is always in the conversation but it would be really hard to say that Morris was a better pitcher at the time over Dave Steib who no one talks about - but really Steib was arguably the better pitcher out of the two. Moyer's best 10 year run would probably be as good as MB's best ten year run.

 

Ultimately it boils down to this - the hall of fame should be about the best pitchers getting in and the best pitchers are Aces - can you really say that either MB or Moyer are ace pitchers? I think the answer to that is no - and as such no they are not HOF material.

 

Sandy Koufax managed to get into the hall of fame for essentially throwing 6 elite seasons in a 12 year career with 169 wins. BUT he was widely regarded to be utterly sick for those 6 seasons. Still longevity and the hall don't seem to count as much as being unhitable for the time you actually pitch.

[TwistedLogic]

While I don't think that he'll accrue the statistics that are usually fitting of a hall of famer, if I was voting, I'd put him on my ballot. When I decided that I wanted guys like Bonds in the hall, it was because I accepted that the hall of fame is a museum of baseball history; I think Mark Buehrle belongs in that museum. I don't know if we'll ever see another pitcher like him. Even if he falls slightly short on the numbers, his other incredible achievements really add a weight to the way I look at his career that most other guys don't have. The absolutely incredible levels of consistency he's displayed over such a long period of time, the amount of durability he's shown throughout his career, the fact that he was able to do so much with the limitations that his scouting report might put on him, and him being one of the greatest fielding pitchers in history, I think those factors are enough to nudge him into my hypothetical ballot.

 

I don't think that he'll ever get in, I understand the argument for those that wouldn't induct him, and I would not argue with people that think he doesn't deserve it. That being said, I personally think that he is a very important character in baseball history, and I'd like to see a Mark Buehrle plaque in Cooperstown.

[Spanky99]

Really^^^^ *shoot me now*

[Caper]

I don't know how he does it. I just didn't think it was possible to throw that slow and still have success.

[reedjohnsonfan]

You have to remember that Bert Blyleven got inducted. He pitched a crazy amount of innings (different era) but might be a decent comparison to Buehrle. Doubtful he gets in but I wouldn't say there's "no chance in hell".

[SaskJaysFan_2]

bow down to our overlord Fangraphs.com

 

I love the Fangraphs.com

 

But me in the very solid career but not HoF list.

 

Tim Raines should be in the hall, however. Travesty.

[NorthOf49]

[reedjohnsonfan]

I love the Fangraphs.com

 

But me in the very solid career but not HoF list.

 

Tim Raines should be in the hall, however. Travesty.

 

I don't understand why he's not in.

[Molitor]

I don't understand why he's not in.

 

Because he's not beeg and strongg

[Captain Adama]

You have to remember that Bert Blyleven got inducted. He pitched a crazy amount of innings (different era) but might be a decent comparison to Buehrle. Doubtful he gets in but I wouldn't say there's "no chance in hell".

 

Bert Blyleven was actually really good and deserved to be put in a lot sooner though. Not really a good comp at all.

[GD]

Blyleven was ridiculous. 3.6 WAR at 19, 7.5 at 20, a 10 WAR season, and a ridiculous streak of above average performance from 1970 to 1986.

[TheHurl]

I don't understand why he's not in.

 

sorry for subjecting you to Bryant Gumbel, but I figured no one would read the actual transcripts. This is the sole reason Raines is not in.

 

 

My favourite part from these trials that gets ignored is that Willie Mays was selling amphetamines...yet everyone freaks out when I say he was a steroid user.

[SaskJaysFan_2]

sorry for subjecting you to Bryant Gumbel, but I figured no one would read the actual transcripts. This is the sole reason Raines is not in.

 

 

My favourite part from these trials that gets ignored is that Willie Mays was selling amphetamines...yet everyone freaks out when I say he was a steroid user.

 

Oh right, that. I forgot about that.

[NorthOf49]

Blyleven was ridiculous. 3.6 WAR at 19, 7.5 at 20, a 10 WAR season, and a ridiculous streak of above average performance from 1970 to 1986.

I don't know how Blyleven got the reputation of a compiler. He truly dominated the game for two whole decades. His 1973 is the fourth-best season of the modern era by fWAR, better than any season from legends like Koufax and Mathewson: 325 innings of 59 FIP- ball.

[Atothe]

I don't know how Blyleven got the reputation of a compiler. He truly dominated the game for two whole decades. His 1973 is the fourth-best season of the modern era by fWAR, better than any season from legends like Koufax and Mathewson: 325 innings of 59 FIP- ball.

 

He pitched in an era where advanced stats weren't a thing. Hindsight and all but the perception of major league pitchers were different

[NorthOf49]

He pitched in an era where advanced stats weren't a thing. Hindsight and all but the perception of major league pitchers were different

Wins and ERA were though and he won 20 games and pitched to a 2.52 ERA (63 ERA-).

[Atothe]

Wins and ERA were though and he won 20 games and pitched to a 2.52 ERA (63 ERA-).

 

Right but looking at those stats, how many other pitchers had similar stats that year?