Joey Votto: "The stat I value most is wRC+"

[LunchBox]

Right, I'm not arguing that there's not many factors that go into projecting wins. Ok so let's go back to the one question I had that BTS wasn't able to answer. Do you know if players that are probably more volatile get paid more than other players with similar projections? Yes there's lots to go into it but there could be a general rule of thumb. I ask a question and you don't know the answer to it so you tell me off through a screen, I see not much has changed since last time I was a frequent poster .

 

Go take a long walk off a short "peer" please.

[Smedley Butler]

You idiots think I'm actually trolling. I'm looking for why a certain contract is given out, there's way more to it than "we pay better players more money".

 

Holy f***ing s***. I really don't wish to join the self-inflicted mockfest you seem determined to bring onto yourself, but are you f***ing serious right now?! Just STFU already and hope that, in time, people forget all about this.

[Smedley Butler]

Votto is awesome. Wish he was ours.

 

Well, he COULD have just signed here as a FA, but obviously as a proud Canadian he was loyal to Cincinnatti, Ohio.

 

Ahem.

[reedjohnsonfan]

Go take a long walk off a short "peer" please.

 

Ok so, player inconsistency and they contract they receive is not an important question? Oh you're just a sheep to Nox and BTS like I remember.

[bzapple]

Other than his sub par 2012, he has been good in every offensive statistic every year. It's not like he's cherry picking the one stat that makes him look good.

 

Unlike JPA who only cares about "RBIs relative to other American League catchers"

 

I guess you mean "sub par" in terms of HRs and RBIs (because he missed some time with injury that year), but I'm still going to nitpick and note that Votto's 2012 numbers are amazing . Of course, even without the counting stats, he could still impress traditionalists with his batting averages.

 

AG's point is moot though since Votto has already gotten as big a contract as he's every going to.

[G-Snarls]

I guess you mean "sub par" in terms of HRs and RBIs (because he missed some time with injury that year), but I'm still going to nitpick and note that Votto's 2012 numbers are amazing . Of course, even without the counting stats, he could still impress traditionalists with his batting averages.

 

AG's point is moot though since Votto has already gotten as big a contract as he's every going to.

 

Jeez, you're right. .337/.474/.567/1.041 slash line in 2012 is not a sub par year is it? Point taken, I was glossing over too quickly.

[TwistedLogic]

Right, I'm not arguing that there's not many factors that go into projecting wins. Ok so let's go back to the one question I had that BTS wasn't able to answer. Do you know if players that are probably more volatile get paid more than other players with similar projections? Yes there's lots to go into it but there could be a general rule of thumb. I ask a question and you don't know the answer to it so you tell me off through a screen, I see not much has changed since last time I was a frequent poster .

 

Seriously. The dumbest. Ever.

[crmr]

Given that wrc+ is a summary statistic I really doubt it had made Votto a better player. My guess, as has been mentioned by others here is that he probably uses it as a good measure of his performance if he had to look at one stat. Actually looking at ones wrc+ offers very little chances to improve as all the factors are packed in, and thus it would probably be more instructive to look at the make-up of it to improve, and I wonder if Votto does that.

 

As far as Jpa goes, it's hard to believe that using wrc+ would help him any as looking at the formula, hrs are more valued than walks ( it doesn't take into account, AFAIK the 'availability' of each, and someone of jpas mental stature may simply think he needs more hrs!

 

This thread, however is quite dumb as the main posters are attempting to indirectly cite jpas ( one of the worst players) struggles as his rejection of saber stats and Votto ( one if the best) as his acceptance.

 

It would seem much more logical to me that their difference is actually that Votto is good because he's talented and Jpa is bad because he's not. I can't suspect, to any significant level either of their wrcs would change if they looked at other stats. ( real question is: can Jpa even take walks??)

 

But it's nice to see this forum still trying to win the $/war crown

[crmr]

I agree it would be dumb. Those are the two most used names here, and I see no reason why they are even being used in the same thread. I believe Ackley is another player who uses saber and it hasn't worked out for him so far... one could find lots of good and bad players who use and don't use saber. I really doubt there is much relation between ones numbers and whether or not they look at a saber stat.

[crmr]

As was mentioned by I believe you ( and I agree), saber is useful for the front office, and probably to a lesser extent ( and I doubt it has happened yet in a serious way) coaches. At the actual player level I highly doubt there is any, or that one could even find any evidence where this were true

[G-Snarls]

As was mentioned by I believe you ( and I agree), saber is useful for the front office, and probably to a lesser extent ( and I doubt it has happened yet in a serious way) coaches. At the actual player level I highly doubt there is any, or that one could even find any evidence where this were true

 

Right. A player goes in to every at bat trying to succeed - get a hit, get on base, advance a runner, hit ball hard, or whatever the situation calls for. Although I'm sure most of them are aware of certain things, like how many home runs they've hit for the season, or their batting average they're not thinking about what this at bat might do to their wOBA or wRC+. They're just focused on getting a good result that at bat.

[crmr]

But some have the wrong idea about what a good result is.

 

I'm not sure this is true. Even wrc tells you a hr is better than a walk. The problem is it'd just much harder to get a home run. Maximizing your wrc is most likely related to being a 'safe' player making few outs. But internally I'm sure there are very few players who don't do this. Jpa is obviously one of the few

 

Edit: I guess I ended up agreeing weird you but my main point was there are very few

[guylaroche5]

you know your offseason is s*** when there's an 11 page thread about a line by joey votto

[Laika]

Hypothetical funny thought. Say there is person 2 ft tall (like a small toddler) batting. Strikezone is supposed to be knees to waist and strike zone is actually called properly. What do you think their walk rate would be? Would they be the greatest batter ever?

 

I bet it would be near 50%. Some pitchers could hit that zone often enough to get him out.

 

What's knees to waist on a 2 foot person, 6-9 inches maybe?

 

Maybe the greatest hitter ever, but they would probably get forced out at 2nd on almost every single, so they might end up not even being that great offensively.

[crmr]

When I played as a kid there was a short kid who did exactly that.

 

He would probably be bad on d

[G-Snarls]

But some have the wrong idea about what a good result is.

 

Any player will know that HR>2B>1B>BB>various outs>GIDP obviously

 

But some guys don't understand the aggregates and what they mean about their overall performance, sure. For example, some guy (no one in particular) might think that a 21HR season with a sub .230 OBP is OK. But it's not.

[G-Snarls]

When I played as a kid there was a short kid who did exactly that.

 

He would probably be bad on d

 

Mini DH! LOL

[connorp]

I should also point out any wRC+ of 120 or better is considered excellent, 100 being great, and 60 being average.

 

One other consideration is that the + in the wRC+ also is park and league adjusted. Guys like Chris Davis, Joey Votto, David Ortiz and Paul Goldschmidt likely see their wRC+ inflated/deflated by the ballparks they play in, and playing in the AL or NL.

 

Just seeing this thead.. you went too obvious troll here to be really good.. should have stuck with the original thought of a guy needing to swing the bat

[Boxcar]

This thread, however is quite dumb as the main posters are attempting to indirectly cite jpas ( one of the worst players) struggles as his rejection of saber stats and Votto ( one if the best) as his acceptance.

 

It would seem much more logical to me that their difference is actually that Votto is good because he's talented and Jpa is bad because he's not. I can't suspect, to any significant level either of their wrcs would change if they looked at other stats. ( real question is: can Jpa even take walks??)

 

But it's nice to see this forum still trying to win the $/war crown

 

I agree 100%. It's always nice to see a player embrace advanced metrics, especially one who is more properly valued by those metrics but turning this into a JPA s*** fest is ridiculous.

 

You have to think though, with all those idiots in Cincy whining about the fact that he doesn't make enough outs, that his understanding of what he does well and why what he does is valuable makes him refuse to change his approach.

[connorp]

Almost time to retire this narrative. WAR (of which stuff similar to wRC+ is a pillar) is becoming more mainstream every day. It's on broadcasts and on ESPN's player pages.

 

Hence miltstar should accept it now.. don't think he migrated here though

[Boxcar]

Just seeing this thead.. you went too obvious troll here to be really good.. should have stuck with the original thought of a guy needing to swing the bat

 

Wow, I didn't catch that. What a dipshit, how can you try to educate people about things you know nothing about? Guys, Goins might be able to hit 60 wRC+, so he'll be average!

[Boxcar]

Votto is the same player today as he was when he was 14 years old, a complete player. It's who he is and nothing is going to alter his approach, especially opinions from fans.

 

have you heard of Adam Dunn? There's an example of how Votto's knowledge of his performance enables him to stay the course. Why don't you read up on what happened to Dunn after joining the White Sox.

[connorp]

Right, I'm not arguing that there's not many factors that go into projecting wins. Ok so let's go back to the one question I had that BTS wasn't able to answer. Do you know if players that are probably more volatile get paid more than other players with similar projections? Yes there's lots to go into it but there could be a general rule of thumb. I ask a question and you don't know the answer to it so you tell me off through a screen, I see not much has changed since last time I was a frequent poster .

 

I'm an open-person and don't mind anti-saber posts if they're legit.. but you've had a pretty thick skull here.. its like you think all 30 mlb teams work off the same set of rules of engagement. They are signing someone based on how they make the team better (W-L).. each team has their own criteria I'm sure to make their own estimation. But even then, how can you tie an exact dollar figure to it? There's so many factors in FA like player availability from one year to the next and a team's need at the given time.

 

Sometimes other things can factor in as well. Like with the Blue Jays/Marlins deal Im sure the JAys thought they were adding wins.. but it appears they were ready to do that at a much higher W/$ than you would think.. that based on the fact that they were probably looking to sell their product more..

 

so questioning how contracts work is an inexact science to say the least.

[AdamGreenwood]

I'm choosing to answer RJF's question rather than jump on the bandwagon of people bashing him.

 

The answer is:

 

Predictability has a value. It's the same reason why many companies invest in hedge funds. They like things to be stable.

In baseball, if you know you're going to have a 4 WAR player year after year (barring injury), that's preferable to someone who is a krap shoot (Brandon Morrow).

 

That being said, teams often look at the most recent year above all else.

[connorp]

I'm choosing to answer RJF's question rather than jump on the bandwagon of people bashing him.

 

The answer is:

 

Predictability has a value. It's the same reason why many companies invest in hedge funds. They like things to be stable.

In baseball, if you know you're going to have a 4 WAR player year after year (barring injury), that's preferable to someone who is a krap shoot (Brandon Morrow).

 

That being said, teams often look at the most recent year above all else.

 

In fairness, it was explained pretty well a few times.. just sandwiched between attacks..lol

[John_Havok]

To provide wins.

 

I'll even take it a step further. A player is paid to make as few outs as possible.

[reedjohnsonfan]

I'm choosing to answer RJF's question rather than jump on the bandwagon of people bashing him.

 

The answer is:

 

Predictability has a value. It's the same reason why many companies invest in hedge funds. They like things to be stable.

In baseball, if you know you're going to have a 4 WAR player year after year (barring injury), that's preferable to someone who is a krap shoot (Brandon Morrow).

 

That being said, teams often look at the most recent year above all else.

 

Thanks for being civil Adam. So yes predictability has a value, no doubt. But what I'm asking is, hypothetically say there's a player who could give you somewhere between 0 and 10 wins with let's say a uniform distribution. Then you have a player identical on every front but he's guaranteed to give you 5 wins, nothing more and nothing less. Has there been any evidence on what player is likely to get a larger contract? Sure there's LOTS that goes into it and you'll never find a definitive answer, not disputing that. But larger market teams more likely to sign free agents, and sometimes they just pay for potential and don't care as much if the guy flops because they can just throw even more money at the problem. So ya, it's an impossible question to answer for sure- anyone could come up with 10 reasons why you'll never know for sure, but I was wondering if there's any evidence out there on this.

[GD]

I'll even take it a step further. A player is paid to make as few outs as possible.

 

Not if they're pitchers or defensive specialists lol.

[reedjohnsonfan]

Why that's just not true, we pay Romero good money to make as few outs as possible.

 

lol, great point.