Captain_Obvious

The Jansen trade is not even close. The fact that we have 3 top 10 catchers does not mean we trade any of them at a discount. The point of trading a C is to reallocate their full value to another position. If we are getting reduced value back for them, might as well keep them and play them as DH or other positions. Jansen and Kirk at DH would still be very useful although it is not ideal.

Jansen updated his glasses in May 2021. He might have started using some form of JARVIS because he turned into a monster since then. A similar thing happened to him in the minors before his breakout. He was a meh prospect, then started wearing glasses, then immediately turned into a top 50 prospect. Kirk could improve, but I do not think there are many areas where there is room for improvement. I don't think he will regress any time soon though.

It is not like we trying to get rid of Kirk. It is a very unique situation where a team has 3 catchers who are potentially all-stars. I do not ever remember a team being in this situation. And it is not common for a catcher to play other positions effectively. Jansen's value is likely to go up with more playing time. Moreno's value is likely to go up as well as he regains his strength from injury. Kirk seems to be the one for whom Toronto can get full value back in a trade.

I agree. He is already where people thought he would peak at. 300 avg, 370 OBP, 15 HRs. He even exceeded expectations defensively. I think he will hover around these numbers for the next few years. I would be very surprised if he improves further.

Varsho is decent offensively and has been for a while. If he improves just a little bit offensively (for example, walk a little bit more and return to 2021 rates), he would probably become untouchable.

Alek Thomas + something good might be interesting. Jameson worries me though. I am doing stat scouting and he sucked at AAA where he spent most of the year in 2022. He is 25 already.

Kirk has more value than Jansen because he has more years of control. Jansen is probably the better player short-term. I would not be looking to trade Kirk if Moreno was not around to maintain our great long-term C outlook. This is truly a unique situation where a team has 3 potentially top 10 MLB catchers.

You might be able to pull it off if you're a con artist like AA.

Jansen 400 ABs and Moreno 300 ABs should produce 7 WAR comfortably.

Easily. Jansen > Kirk.

Varsho produced 4.6 fWAR and 4.9 bWAR in 2022. He has been producing as a 4+ WAR player for the past two years, and has very good defensive numbers in all OF positions, including CF. Kirk produced 3.8 fWAR and 3.9 bWAR in 2022. He has age on his side, but his athleticism leaves a lot to be desired. I would love to get more for Kirk, but it is pretty fair overall objectively (if not tilting towards Blue Jays). Both controlled until 2026 season. Going for Kirk: - Superior hitting and contact. - Superior plate discipline. Going for Varsho: - Superior power. - Better defensively in CF than Kirk is in C. - Superior base runner - More value produced in last two years. Arizona might actually want more.

No you dumn. Please provide a realistic suggestion for SPs you'd get for Teo and how they will improve the team. Otherwise, you dumn. Gurriel is barely above replacement level at this point. He is a bench player costing 5M. Otto Lopez will provide the same value. Saving 5M helps the team. Here is how trading Kirk helps the team long-term and short-term. Realistic trade: Kirk for Varsho. Before: C: Kirk + Jansen = 7 WAR CF: Springer = 3 WAR RF: Teo = 2 WAR LF: Gurriel = 1 WAR Total = 13 WAR After: C: Jansen + Moreno = 7 WAR CF: Varsho = 4.5 WAR RF: Springer = 3 WAR LF: Teo = 2 WAR Total: 16.5 WAR 16.5 WAR > 13 WAR Stop being dumn.

This is exactly the point. Because the Blue Jays managers or FO f***ed up last year, Jansen might be considered as bottom-of-the-line-up part-time catcher. In reality, he might be the best player on the team if given a full-time role. Last year, his 10% BB and 17% K rates were very impressive. He has some of the highest barrel rates in baseball. His expected wOBA is 14th in MLB. https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/leaderboard/expected_statistics?type=batter&year=2022&position=&team=&min=150 He is also a decent defensive catcher and an average base runner (not just for a catcher). Because if his relatively low PAs in the past couple of years, he is potentially a buy-low candidate for other teams.

Don't trade Teo because it will not result in improving the team long-term or short-term. Dump Gurriel for meh prospects and save 5M Keeping Jansen and trading Kirk is likely to improve the team the most long-term and short-term.

Gurriel is yet to reach 2 WAR in a season, and he is getting worse. He sucks.

If Teoscar was cheaper, maybe. If I were the other team, I would not give anything besides lottery tickets. 15M is a lot of money to take on for a player projected for 2 WAR in 2023. For Gurriel, other teams will not care why he is sucking. If you're getting a CF, Gurriel will be the one sitting on the bench anyways. Also, given his base running and defense, you can find much cheaper replacements. The problem with trading Jansen is that you will not get his true full value back. He has been injured (some due to bad luck HBP), and the Jays org has been so f***ing stupid in using him when healthy by playing him every other game, including not using him as DH except a handful of times despite being the best offensive player. They also batted him 8th reducing the amount of ABs he got. He is likely to produce a 5+ WAR season on another team that knows how to utilize him. The Blue Jays would be better served by trading Kirk for a CF with similar value and years of control as Kirk's value is unlikely to increase beyond what it currently is. Kirk might be able to fetch something like Varsho or Thomas from Arizona. I can't think of a reasonable Jansen trade that improves the team as much.

1- He will not bring back any value beside lottery tickets. 2- Gurriel's power has been declining every year and has completely disappeared at this point. If you're looking to save money, this is where you start. Unloading him for pretty much nothing is still valuable. Otto Lopez will very likely produce more value. 3- Who is this CF do you think the Blue Jays should target if they are trading Jansen?

Some posters are missing the obvious, so let me help by stating it: 1- Teoscar trade value is minimal. While his offense is good, his defense is well below average in RF. He is 30 and has 1 year of control. Given the 14M-15M price tag, you will not get anything of high value for him. 2- Gurriel's value is even lower than Teoscar's. Over 500 PA last year, he was a 1-WAR slap-hitting LF with terrible defense and base-running. People complaining about Tapia should not forget about Gurriel. 3- Danny Jansen has been the best offensive play on the Blue Jays for the past 1.5 years. The sample size is getting pretty large too. Since June 1st, 2021 he has compiled 158 wRC+. In 2022, he "only" produced 140 wRC+ which still topped the team. People wanting to dump him are as clueless as the Blue Jays org was when they were using him part-time and hitting him 8th behind Tapia. Unless you get a true all-star with similar years of control back, you just don't trade him. 4- Upgrading CF also upgrades RF and LF by rotating the existing OFs and removing Gurriel from there. This will also improve run prevention given they were 27th in OF defense last year.

Lawlar is probably too much. That being said, Thomas was very bad offensively last year. If I am trading someone as good as Kirk, I would want something significant to come back with Thomas.

While CF itself is not the biggest issue, OF defense overall is. The Jays were 27th in MLB in OF defense. Moving Teoscar to LF and finding a better RF is one way to solve the problem. However, you can improve all positions simultaneously by finding a better CF than Springer, and then moving Springer to RF, and Teo to LF. A trade with Arizona makes so much sense as they have 4 true CFs (all lefties to boot). There are so many options including: 1- Moreno or Kirk for Carroll + Bumgarner + cash 2- Kirk for Varsho. 3- Kirk for Thomas + something good (Lawlar?)

Gaining weight results in ground balls, not Ks. Go brush up on your baseball science.

You missed obvious improvement. Kikuchi is lefty. He throws hard so this means he is strong. He is also Japanese like Ohtani so why not have him learn batting like Ohtani? If we train Kikuchi, he can become a strong left-handed batter.

I see your point. Slow is a weasel word. I will rephrase my statement to "Vlad is slower than 62% of MLB players".

More like close to third? 62% of players would beat Vlad in a race. Vlad is clearly on the slower side in MLB. Just curious... are you trolling?

Just looked it up. He is 38 percentile in 90 ft sprint time. I would say he is pretty slow.