Brownie19

Had to look it up, but he's been awful for awhile now. BB/9 > 5

You guys think the Jays players now hate Fisher? Do they think he's a dirty cheating player? Or just a beta pussy who wouldn't stand up for what he thought was right? Or do they acknowledge that if they were in the same position, they'd probably go along with it to?

I didn't watch. Buck and Tabby in mid season form?

Don't forget Fisher crushed LHP last year (and was awful vs. RHP). SSS, but nonetheless, something to consider.

I wouldn't doubt that one bit. We know most/all teams have pitchers doing it and nobody is doing s*** about it (league, teams, players). Doesn't that foster an environment where you're going to push the limits of it and see what you're going to get away with? There's a pretty high chance that a similar pattern developed with the sign stealing...

We should also tell them that the 8th place hitter is the 2nd cleanup hitter.

Exactly. If you have more incentive to win certain games instead of all the games, you're going to manage differently. Playing in a close game that you didn't bet on...and planning to bet on tomorrow's game? are you going to use your best bullpen pieces or save them for tomorrow when you've got money on it? Anyway - someone a lot smarter than me on here also just said there's evidence that Rose actually placed bets while he was a player and did bet on his team to lose. I suspect they're correct and thus this is all a moot point.

There's no evidence that pitchers are using sunscreen and rosin for grip? Of course there is - it's all over the place, but the league, the teams and the players are ignoring it. Bauer is out there suggesting that MLB should just change their rules to allow it. And even perhaps without the evidence, teams knew other teams were stealing their signs. We know that, we saw catchers going to multiple signs without anyone on base and there are reports that everyone in the league knew sign stealing was happening and were taking measures to prevent it (apparently except for the Jays and one other team who didn't seem to care). And it's not a suspicion that the Astros are playing against players using PEDs - it's a reality. Some where caught and suspended, others weren't caught.

I do think their cheating was bad; however, I fully suspect they played against a host of other players who were also cheating. I know they competed against pitchers who were using illegal substances, I fully suspect they played against lots of players who were on PEDs and I suspect they were playing against teams that were also stealing signs. I also suspect there are players cheating in ways I've never thought of. I find it difficult to suggest to decide where that line is and to suggest they were the only team that crossed that line. We know very little about what impact added grip has. For all we know certain teams (perhaps even the Astros!) may have developed a combo that significantly improves spin rates and adds a huge boost to their success. How do you know it's not at the same level as the Astros sign stealing? If the league, teams and players ALL turn the blind eye on cheating that's happening within the game (whether it's big or small) - it's not reasonable to then draw some imaginary line and throw them to the fire. That's why I highly doubt they'll ever take away their title and why they didn't include that as a punishment.

Players are stupid then. They aren't going to vacate the title. If given the opportunity to cheat to win the World Series, I'd render a guess that almost every player in baseball would choose to go along with it. f*** - almost every pitcher in baseball is cheating right now and there's still lots of players using PEDs to win. To suggest the title should be revoked simply because the Astros cheated 'more' or 'better' than they did is utter nonsense. Do players think everyone on the Astros who isn't named Beltran is a pussy ass beta? It's easy for them to say "I wouldn't have allowed that s***", but the reality is that probably 40 Astros players + coaches (accounting for different guys on the 25 man roster) all knew it was happening and didn't stop them or speak up. For players to pretend they would have handled it differently is top notch ********. If players think it's wrong and feel the players should be punished - than stand the f*** up to Tony Clark and the PA and tell them to f*** off - that what they did was wrong and do something about it. Judge/Trout/Bellinger talk a big game about how wrong it was to cheat - then put on your big boy pants and go tell the PA that what they did was wrong. Don't be a f***ing pussy and hurl a baseball at someone's head. The reality is they won't (just like teachers won't stand up to their union) - just like they probably wouldn't have spoken out and stopped the cheating if they were on the Astros in 2017. They would have gone along with it and collected their rings.

I'm too lazy to find the study, but it's been proven that putting your best hitter 2nd, with your second and third best hitters in the leadoff and cleanup position (typically with the higher OBP guy leadoff and higher SLG% cleanup) is the optimal way to construct your lineup. Fourth and fifth best hitter hit 3rd and 5th. Based on this, what Charlie is proposing isn't too far off.

Holy f*** man - did you glaze where I told you I missed an entire page of discussion and didn't see your follow up post where you added the Cavan quotes? My Buck ******** meter isn't broken. That's certainly something Buck would make up even though there's little to no evidence he made any changes and simply was on a BABIP heater. Tabby would follow up by telling us how Cavan looks stronger and how he works hard to battle through the riggers of the MLB season. Then they'd probably say something about how Cavan has an advantage because his dad played.

Probably Shaw v. RHP and Grichuk v. LHP Lineup protection is overrated.

actually think I missed a whole page there! That just reeked of Buck's ********.

Apparently Ben Zobrist is at home and has no plans to play baseball this year. Hasn't officially retired, but sounds like he will. One of the most underrated players of his time. Retires with more WAR than Omar Vizquel and of course Harold Baines, but he won't get a sniff for the HOF.

So pitchers are still going to throw at Astros hitters even though it was their own Players Association that fought for the immunity blanket that prevented the league from suspending them? (I have to imagine nobody would throw at them if they got suspended because nobody throws at PED users) That's kind of f***ed up and frankly, pretty stupid. Perhaps pitchers should throw balls at Tony Clark's face. Just randomly...Tony is walking down the hall and Bauer jumped out and whips a ball at his face. Now that would be entertaining. Personally - I think intentionally hurting your teams chances of winning just to 'teach' a batter that he's been a bad boy is incredibly stupid. Why not just put a useless backup player as your first baseman and sucker punch an Astros player when he comes to first? Wouldn't that send the same message without 'really' hurting your chance of winning. That would be an excellent role for Rowdy Tellez this year. We'll use our 26th roster spot to send Rowdy out to punch Astro players in the face to 'teach them a lesson they won't forget'.

you can't possibly believe that.

From Buck and Tabby I bet. Enough said. Hit mute.

I didn't know that. Interesting.

I get it. I'm not picking a side at all. I'm just curious how people see this and I'm fascinated at the harsh outburst from fans and players. I find it interesting that some people can draw lines and say 'oh that cheating, that's fine, but this other cheating, that's crossing the line and i'm furious and everyone should be shot and tear down those banners'. How do you draw that line? How do players call out other players when they know they have teammates who also cheat (even if it's at a different 'level' in their mind). Will this scandal make players think twice about 'cheating' this year and in the future? Will pitchers stop using foreign substances? Will teams stop trying to decode signs from video and stealing signs in game (without using technology)? Will players reconsider using PEDs?

First - my original post was to simply create the discussion on whether cheating is cheating - or whether there are different levels of cheating. You obviously believe the later, but can't comprehend this type of complex discussion...instead you revert to insults even though I never really expressed any opinion or side on the matter (I just asked questions). Second - you believe nobody speaks out or complains about pitchers using foreign substances or PED's because 'everyone is doing it'. To start, that doesn't make it right man. Also, at some point - not everyone was doing it. Someone started it. When only a few teams or 'some' players are doing it. Are you saying you'd be totally OK with teams stealing signs using in game technology if this became wide spread and 'everyone was doing it'? Third - you actually have no idea whether certain pitchers actually benefit more than others from the foreign substances - or whether some teams actually have a better 'product' than other teams. I mean there are likely tons of teams trying to decode and steal signs....the Astros were perhaps just the most advanced. Fourth - if you found out that teams were hiring chemists to come up with special mixtures that pitchers were using to improve their grip and spin rates? Would that be organized enough to make you, fans and other players care? I wouldn't be surprised in the least if that's already happening. Nobody, including the league seems to give a f*** about pitchers using sunscreen and rosin - so why not take it to the next level? Fifth - players get penalized heavily for PED use. That's great, but if they've used it for years (without getting caught) and it helped them win divisions, awards and titles...why wouldn't other players be furious at them? Do they decide not to be furious simply because they probably have teammates who are doing the same thing and they don't want to hurt their poor little feelings? Isn't that pathetic?

It's going to be ironic when a pitcher reaches for the rosin and Bullfrog sunscreen mixtures on his arm to get some extra grip before hurling a ball at the back/head of an Astros batter. He'll sure show him what happens to dem cheaters!!!

Why don't players speak out against PED users and pitchers using foreign substances? Is it simply because half their teammates are also cheating? Or did they decide that cheating isn't 'as bad'?

Man - I'd love to know what the proposed deal actually was. It sure seemed like a slam dunk deal for the Angels, which now appears to be off the table because Art don't wait for nobody. Brilliant.

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/minor-leaguers-to-be-paid-more-not-enough/ Minor league players get a 40% raise! still grossly underpaid, but a step in the right direction I guess.