GDT- Rays @ Jays (Game 1/3) 7:07 ET

[connorp]

Yeah the Jays should have offered Ohtani 1.5 billion to get him to pick the Jays and they should have given up their top 5 prospects for one year of Soto.

 

They also should have offered Soler 3 years 50 million and brought his 94 wRC+ and 0 fWAR to the Jays.

 

They also should have given Chapman 5 years 100 million and kept his 70 wRC+ and 0.1 fWAR around.

 

I mean what a bunch of idiots. They had to have known that a quarter of the way into the season that Bo, Springer and Kirk would all have OPS's in the .500's and like 5 home runs combined right?

 

Dumbasses lol

 

They offered Chapman that and more last year lol. With everyone on here on board, mostly. They got saved from themselves.

 

They also paid $28m for 3t years of Turner and IKF.

[Eat My Shatkins]

I don't think anybody is complaining about not signing Chapman, Soler, etc

 

They're not complaining about it NOW. They did when those players signed with the Giants though and basically all off season too.

[Eat My Shatkins]

The Jays are morons.

 

They should have known 2021 was peak Vladdy and 2022 was peak Bo/Kirk.

 

Should have sold them back then and brought back a haul of assets.

 

I mean how could they not have known???

 

Morons

[Omar]

The Jays are morons.

 

They should have known 2021 was peak Vladdy and 2022 was peak Bo/Kirk.

 

Should have sold them back then and brought back a haul of assets.

 

I mean how could they not have known???

 

Morons

 

Straw man.

 

The cupboards are bare.

 

The fridge isn't working.

 

The stores are all closed.

 

You're saying, it's okay because you're not hungry right now. Just wait.

[L54]

Yeah the Jays should have offered Ohtani 1.5 billion to get him to pick the Jays and they should have given up their top 5 prospects for one year of Soto.

 

They also should have offered Soler 3 years 50 million and brought his 94 wRC+ and 0 fWAR to the Jays.

 

They also should have given Chapman 5 years 100 million and kept his 70 wRC+ and 0.1 fWAR around.

 

I mean what a bunch of idiots. They had to have known that a quarter of the way into the season that Bo, Springer and Kirk would all have OPS's in the .500's and like 5 home runs combined right?

 

Dumbasses lol

 

It’s nobody’s fault I agree. Give everyone life time extensions

 

Dumb ass

[L54]

The Jays are morons.

 

They should have known 2021 was peak Vladdy and 2022 was peak Bo/Kirk.

 

Should have sold them back then and brought back a haul of assets.

 

I mean how could they not have known???

 

Morons

 

Hahaha another one

 

Biggest jock sniffer on the board

 

Good job Mr. Atkins I am so impressed with your skills!!

[Olerud363]

They're not complaining about it NOW. They did when those players signed with the Giants though and basically all off season too.

 

Well there are 2 camps. There might be some people complaining about the roster moves. That is a different issue.

 

There is another camp complaining about the development, which includes ongoing development of major league players.

 

There is like a meme going around in a couple of variations, one by I think 70s supersports which goes like this

 

1980 - That guy looks like he can hit (Mattingly)

2000 - That guy takes some walks it's our secret (Stairs/Money Ball As)

2024 - Looks like that guy has good expected hsquared v and if we video-trance him with YETI3 pitch anticipation protocol, video dataset 5, get him on the biomechanics 12.2 protocol, we might have something. Also get Rick to get all players over 27.4 years on the updated nutrition and sleep protocols for post-prime maintenance.

 

They are missing whatever is SOTA (State of the Art) in 2024. They probably have something but it isn't SOTA, and it isn't implemented well.

[Eat My Shatkins]

I can't believe they didn't fix the offense this off season. What were they thinking?? The options were endless and they did NOTHING!!!!

 

Lmao

[Eat My Shatkins]

Sarcasm aside, if this doesn't get turned around then Atkins indeed needs to walk the plank.

 

But, it's pretty clear now to anyone that isn't a complete f***ing moron that there was literally nothing they could have done this last off season to fix this offense.

 

That's my point this morning, not that Atkins is free of blame.

[Olerud363]

I can't believe they didn't fix the offense this off season. What were they thinking?? The options were endless and they did NOTHING!!!!

 

Lmao

 

They could have....

 

1. Replaced Mattingly with state-of-the-art hitting coach

2. Replaced Biggio with Barger

3. Had faith in Horwitz and not signed Turner.

4. Not signed IKF and just realize Clemente had similar skill set for cheaper.

5. Give Clemente the IKF job and find another minor league vet to replace Clemente.

6. Use IKF and Turner money to sign Teoscar.

7. KK becomes redundant do something else with that money (take on money in trade)

 

Some may argue this is all in hindsight, especially 2 (Barger over Biggio). However progressive organization should have understanding of the new bat speed stats, exit velocities, and inside knowlege of Barger's injury and recovery (which may have knocked him numbers down in 2023).

[L54]

Sarcasm aside, if this doesn't get turned around then Atkins indeed needs to walk the plank.

 

But, it's pretty clear now to anyone that isn't a complete f***ing moron that there was literally nothing they could have done this last off season to fix this offense.

 

That's my point this morning, not that Atkins is free of blame.

 

Why would you blame him for anything if there was no way he could have fixed it? You should give him (another) mulligan by your logic

[DigitalRock]

the heart of the order... that's both a sad and funny statement. Bo and Vlad are not the heart of anything so far this season

I mean they were good young hitters…. They are getting worse, what happened? Is it the organization? Will they go somewhere else and figure it out or are they simply not as good as we thought?

[jaysblue]

I can't believe they didn't fix the offense this off season. What were they thinking?? The options were endless and they did NOTHING!!!!

 

Lmao

 

Lmao they didn't though.

 

A lot of "power" bats were available who could have played a corner OF spot or DH and instead opted to roll again with defensive minded players like KK and IKF. I had nothing wrong with those signings for depth, but didn't want them starting a majority of the games.

 

As well, you couldn't go into this season banking on Vladdy to be his 2021 self. Had to bring in some reinforcements and improve the lineup as much as possible.

[jaysblue]

Why would you blame him for anything if there was no way he could have fixed it? You should give him (another) mulligan by your logic

 

Isn't it Atkins job to fix issues with this roster? These Atkins homers are hilarious.

[Eat My Shatkins]

They could have....

 

1. Replaced Mattingly with state-of-the-art hitting coach

2. Replaced Biggio with Barger

3. Had faith in Horwitz and not signed Turner.

4. Not signed IKF and just realize Clemente had similar skill set for cheaper.

5. Give Clemente the IKF job and find another minor league vet to replace Clemente.

6. Use IKF and Turner money to sign Teoscar.

7. KK becomes redundant do something else with that money (take on money in trade)

 

Some may argue this is all in hindsight, especially 2 (Barger over Biggio). However progressive organization should have understanding of the new bat speed stats, exit velocities, and inside knowlege of Barger's injury and recovery (which may have knocked him numbers down in 2023).

 

Yeah but none of that would have fixed what ails this offense, which is Vlad being a .700 OPS singles hitting double play machine, Bo a .550 OPSer, Springer a .550 OPSer and Kirk a .550 OPSer.

 

You don't recover from that unless you have the Orioles pipeline spilling onto the MLB roster.

[jaysblue]

Yeah but none of that would have fixed what ails this offense, which is Vlad being a .700 OPS singles hitting double play machine, Bo a .550 OPSer, Springer a .550 OPSer and Kirk a .550 OPSer.

 

You don't recover from that unless you have the Orioles pipeline spilling onto the MLB roster.

 

Vlad for the past two seasons hasn't come close to being his 2021 self, so you have to either move on or adjust around him. Can't continue to bank on him recapturing his 2021 self.

 

I expect Bo will rebound at some point. He's not the greatest hitter as he's all average, low BB skills and so/so power, but hopefully he comes around to being a 20/80 guy with a low .800 OPS when all is said and done.

 

What did you really expect with Springer? He's an expensive, aging, and broken down player. Not the best FA signing by Atkins.

 

Kirk only had a hot two months in 2022 and has been awful offensively ever since. He's out of shape and as a professional athlete, needs better conditioning. The FO struck out on their assessment on him and other catchers they had (Moreno).

 

Don't expect the Jays to have an Orioles pipeline spilling onto the MLB roster, but they should at least have some players in their minor league system who could contribute. Again, a massive fail by Atkins and this FO as they haven't been able to develop a steady pipeline of players or arms in the minors that they could use.

 

You pretty much just placed blame and criticized the Atkins FO for their failures with this post lol.

[Eat My Shatkins]

Lol this is not hard...

 

From 2020 to 2022 the Jays had a high end offense and decided to build around Vlad, Kirk and Bo. They already had Springer and he was a huge part of that offense.

 

They decided to move Gurriel and Teo to shore up the defense because they still had lots of good bats to build around.

 

But...2023 Springer didn't just decline he fell off a cliff. Kirk and Vlad forgot how to hit. So now instead of just losing Teo and Gurriel they also lost those three bats making it 5 solid bats gone in total.

 

No one saw that coming and with FA crop in 2023 off season there was f*** all they could do about it other than send a hail mary for Ohtani.

 

Now to make matters worse not only have Vlad, Kirk and Springer failed to.bounce back, they've actually gotten worse and brought Bo with them.

 

Ultimately Atkins has to take the blame, all.im saying is I see no fault in the decisions he made building this roster around the players he chose to build around because all of those bats dying at the same time is not something anyone would have predicted.

 

Thank goodness he hasn't locked any of them in to long term crippling deals at least.

[connorp]

Regarding Springer: should every GM get a mulligan for a bad FA signing and say, couldn’t see that coming?

[Eat My Shatkins]

The problem with some of you simpletons is you see somebody say "I don't blame Atkins for building around this core, I would have done it too" or "last off season the options for actual offensive upgrades were basically non existent so I don't blame Atkins for not being able to fix the offense this past off season" and you hear "derrr I don't think any of this is Atkins fault and he shouldn't take any blame at all"

 

I never said that but the same 3 or 4 posters keep building that strawman every single time lol

[jaysblue]

Regarding Springer: should every GM get a mulligan for a bad FA signing and say, couldn’t see that coming?

 

Not every GM. Only applies to Atkins.

[max silver]

Vlad for the past two seasons hasn't come close to being his 2021 self, so you have to either move on or adjust around him. Can't continue to bank on him recapturing his 2021 self.

 

I expect Bo will rebound at some point. He's not the greatest hitter as he's all average, low BB skills and so/so power, but hopefully he comes around to being a 20/80 guy with a low .800 OPS when all is said and done.

 

What did you really expect with Springer? He's an expensive, aging, and broken down player. Not the best FA signing by Atkins.

 

Kirk only had a hot two months in 2022 and has been awful offensively ever since. He's out of shape and as a professional athlete, needs better conditioning. The FO struck out on their assessment on him and other catchers they had (Moreno).

 

Don't expect the Jays to have an Orioles pipeline spilling onto the MLB roster, but they should at least have some players in their minor league system who could contribute. Again, a massive fail by Atkins and this FO as they haven't been able to develop a steady pipeline of players or arms in the minors that they could use.

 

You pretty much just placed blame and criticized the Atkins FO for their failures with this post lol.

 

I think the front office actually made the right decision towards which catcher to trade. Kirk and Moreno are nearly neck in neck in terms of overall wins provided since the trade with Moreno at 3.2 vs Kirk at 2.8. Jansen is actually the best of the bunch, and trading either of Kirk or Jansen wouldn't have likely brought back proper value making the team worse in the aggregate.

[BTS]

The problem here is pretty clearly deeper than the decisions made last offseason (Shatkins is 100% right that this wasn't fixable with a few offseason moves). It's also deeper than a choice to value run prevention. The team has to identify why almost nobody in the org is playing to their abilities, and why they've been a bottom of the barrel team when it comes to acquiring young talent and then developing that talent into quality major leaguers. The only solution here is poaching someone from an org that does things properly and giving them the autonomy to overhaul the baseball ops side of the organization however they see fit.

 

Atkins will probably learn from his failures here, go work for the Dodgers for a couple of years, go to St. Louis mid-rebuild, spare no expense on cutting edge nerds, and turn them into a dynasty.

[connorp]

The problem with some of you simpletons is you see somebody say "I don't blame Atkins for building around this core, I would have done it too" or "last off season the options for actual offensive upgrades were basically non existent so I don't blame Atkins for not being able to fix the offense this past off season" and you hear "derrr I don't think any of this is Atkins fault and he shouldn't take any blame at all"

 

I never said that but the same 3 or 4 posters keep building that strawman every single time lol

 

What does our own opinions mean? What does it matter that I personally would’ve signed Springer? Do you not think there were people that said don’t sign this guy that’s shown he’s got a high risk of breaking down, for $150m? Do you think it matters if I say “I wouldn’t have signed that guy”, and then he’s great… people offer their opinions. If I f*** up huge at work, I’m going to own it. I won’t feel better when someone says, oh I would’ve done that too. Some smart guy wouldn’t have f***ed it up.

 

Maybe you’re the simpleton?

[Eat My Shatkins]

What does our own opinions mean? What does it matter that I personally would’ve signed Springer? Do you not think there were people that said don’t sign this guy that’s shown he’s got a high risk of breaking down, for $150m? Do you think it matters if I say “I wouldn’t have signed that guy”, and then he’s great… people offer their opinions. If I f*** up huge at work, I’m going to own it. I won’t feel better when someone says, oh I would’ve done that too. Some smart guy wouldn’t have f***ed it up.

 

Maybe you’re the simpleton?

 

 

What the hell are you even blathering on about? You are the biggest f***tard on this board and everyone knows it. Normally I wouldn't even respond to a post of yours, I might as well just have a conversation with the sole of my boot.

[glory]

If there was nothing Atkins could do to fix the offense, then why stick with the same core in 2024? If you don’t want to blame Atkins for the offense due to lack of options, then fine (I agree the FA options sucked) but then why make the most boring cosmetic changes (KK, Turner, IKF) to a core that you know wouldn’t be good enough when you could have sold reasonably high on Bichette (for example) and pivoted from the core?

 

I think that’s the point of contention here. Atkins wasn’t able to put lipstick on a pig (aka the offense) but he had other options that he decided not to pursue. So either way, he (and/or Shapiro) deserve blame for this mess. What you want to blame them for is just semantics at this point.

[connorp]

What the hell are you even blathering on about? You are the biggest f***tard on this board and everyone knows it. Normally I wouldn't even respond to a post of yours, I might as well just have a conversation with the sole of my boot.

 

So, yes on the simpleton thing. That’s what I got out of that.

[Spanky99]

Vlad for the past two seasons hasn't come close to being his 2021 self, so you have to either move on or adjust around him. Can't continue to bank on him recapturing his 2021 self.

 

I expect Bo will rebound at some point. He's not the greatest hitter as he's all average, low BB skills and so/so power, but hopefully he comes around to being a 20/80 guy with a low .800 OPS when all is said and done.

 

What did you really expect with Springer? He's an expensive, aging, and broken down player. Not the best FA signing by Atkins.

 

Kirk only had a hot two months in 2022 and has been awful offensively ever since. He's out of shape and as a professional athlete, needs better conditioning. The FO struck out on their assessment on him and other catchers they had (Moreno).

 

Don't expect the Jays to have an Orioles pipeline spilling onto the MLB roster, but they should at least have some players in their minor league system who could contribute. Again, a massive fail by Atkins and this FO as they haven't been able to develop a steady pipeline of players or arms in the minors that they could use.

 

You pretty much just placed blame and criticized the Atkins FO for their failures with this post lol.

 

lol...

[jaysblue]

lol...

 

Typical Spanky response lol.

[Spanky99]

Lol this is not hard...

 

From 2020 to 2022 the Jays had a high end offense and decided to build around Vlad, Kirk and Bo. They already had Springer and he was a huge part of that offense.

 

They decided to move Gurriel and Teo to shore up the defense because they still had lots of good bats to build around.

 

But...2023 Springer didn't just decline he fell off a cliff. Kirk and Vlad forgot how to hit. So now instead of just losing Teo and Gurriel they also lost those three bats making it 5 solid bats gone in total.

 

No one saw that coming and with FA crop in 2023 off season there was f*** all they could do about it other than send a hail mary for Ohtani.

 

Now to make matters worse not only have Vlad, Kirk and Springer failed to.bounce back, they've actually gotten worse and brought Bo with them.

 

Ultimately Atkins has to take the blame, all.im saying is I see no fault in the decisions he made building this roster around the players he chose to build around because all of those bats dying at the same time is not something anyone would have predicted.

 

Thank goodness he hasn't locked any of them in to long term crippling deals at least.

 

Correct.

[Spanky99]

The problem here is pretty clearly deeper than the decisions made last offseason (Shatkins is 100% right that this wasn't fixable with a few offseason moves). It's also deeper than a choice to value run prevention. The team has to identify why almost nobody in the org is playing to their abilities, and why they've been a bottom of the barrel team when it comes to acquiring young talent and then developing that talent into quality major leaguers. The only solution here is poaching someone from an org that does things properly and giving them the autonomy to overhaul the baseball ops side of the organization however they see fit.

 

Correct.