Around Baseball 2024

[glory]

We signed Belt to replace Teoscar. Belt went on to hit better than Teo did the previous 2 years. You're viewing this trade with blinders on and a fantasy baseball mindset.

 

Teoscar was coming off a 4 WAR season in 2021 (132 wRC+) and 3 WAR season in 2022 (130 wRC+). During the pandemic season, he had a 1.4 WAR and 142 wRC+ in 50 games. That's a pretty good track record. If you think trading that sort of bat for a 29 year old RP with 1 good season in his career is a good decision in isolation, then we'll have to agree to disagree. This has nothing to do with the follow-up. If you want to look at the WAR component between Teo, KK, Belt, Gurriel, etc, then that's a different discussion. I'm talking about just the logic of the trade itself. Swanson had a 0.9 fWAR last season. You know who also had a 0.9 fWAR in 2023? Julian Merryweather, a reliever the Jays let go for nothing to clear up a 40 man roster spot. That's how volatile and unpredictable relievers are year to year. Again, the reason why the Jays spent $21m on Green, $16m on Jimi, traded Teo for Swanson, traded Frasso for White, etc, etc, is because of the development issues we have discussed. That's the bigger issue here than the trade itself.

 

I don't think trading Vlad for a RP after this season is a valid comparison. If Vlad's 2024 resembles his 2023, then he'd be no where near as valuable as Teoscar was in the 2 years preceding that trade. Vlad would legit be a salary dump in that scenario.

[Brownie19]

Gross who wanted Urshela?

 

connorp went on about Urshela at length this spring and then was dunking on the board when Gio had a couple of hits in the first week of the season.

[wilko]

connorp went on about Urshela at length this spring and then was dunking on the board when Gio had a couple of hits in the first week of the season.

 

He's not a smart man.

[Brownie19]

Teoscar was coming off a 4 WAR season in 2021 (132 wRC+) and 3 WAR season in 2022 (130 wRC+). During the pandemic season, he had a 1.4 WAR and 142 wRC+ in 50 games. That's a pretty good track record. If you think trading that sort of bat for a 29 year old RP with 1 good season in his career is a good decision in isolation, then we'll have to agree to disagree. This has nothing to do with the follow-up. If you want to look at the WAR component between Teo, KK, Belt, Gurriel, etc, then that's a different discussion. I'm talking about just the logic of the trade itself. Swanson had a 0.9 fWAR last season. You know who also had a 0.9 fWAR in 2023? Julian Merryweather, a reliever the Jays let go for nothing to clear up a 40 man roster spot. That's how volatile and unpredictable relievers are year to year. Again, the reason why the Jays spent $21m on Green, $16m on Jimi, traded Teo for Swanson, traded Frasso for White, etc, etc, is because of the development issues we have discussed. That's the bigger issue here than the trade itself.

 

I don't think trading Vlad for a RP after this season is a valid comparison. If Vlad's 2024 resembles his 2023, then he'd be no where near as valuable as Teoscar was in the 2 years preceding that trade. Vlad would legit be a salary dump in that scenario.

 

A process based argument - very rare for this board. I do find it hard to argue, even though I also understand the though process of replacing Teo's cost with other players that helped the team. However, the missing factor is how much trade value Teo really had. You think it was significant. I suspect it was a lot less than you believe - but acknowledge it may have been more than what the Jays got in return (while acknowledging how hard it is to ignore the actual results). The underlying numbers were declining in 2022 and, as I suspect the Jays and other teams expected they would continued to erode in 2023, which they did - leading to Teo's worst year since his breakout. Atkins correctly evaluated Teo and dumped him in a walk year. You think they could have gotten more - but you're guessing.

 

Nobody would be talking about this if Teo was off to a slow start in LA. But he isn't - he's off to a great start. His underlying numbers are better this year than they were last year, but they aren't where they were in 2020-2021. They aren't even as good as they were in 2022 - all of which is reflective in his xwOBA. Also, his current K% is still up around 30, which is worrisome. It's unlikely he sustains this early season success unless he makes some adjustments. I love Teo and will always root for the guy. Curious to see how the rest of the season plays out for him.

[Jimcanuck]

There's no chance Soto is signing here. Soto probably doesn't even know where Toronto is. We're going into a rebuild.

 

I saw him in Toronto in April

[connorp]

BTS is right though

 

You guys don't even understand why the Jays are bad

 

You probably still think they are bad because they signed IKF instead of Gio Urshela. That was one of your main complaints lol

 

My huge target was a $1.5m guy. You got me lol. I will take him over IKF all day still.

 

I did not stake anything on the Teo trade hill. It’s not about a single deal. It’s where they decided to take the team 2 years ago when they got bounced from the playoffs. They went into that offseason reacting to their weakness, but the next offseason, just doubled down on the obvious weakness.

 

I think two years ago was highly reactionary. It’s difficult to determine how those playoffs games go with a better OF. I say you can improve your playoff chances by doing this or that, but of course there will always be randomness that can supersede it. And those games the whole wheels just came apart. There were babip balls you couldn’t do anything with, and other balls where you can say maybe this guy could’ve gotten it. But they are maybes for sure. And so you can’t help that ball just getting hit to the wrong spot, at the totally wrong time.

 

But fine, the GM likes their guys and say, I think we can afford to maybe take a little step back in offense next year, but improve our D by a lot and we will be better. Can’t fault the logic. However, last year they were forced to deal with the reality that maybe their guys are not what they thought. Their limp noodle bats where why they whimpered into the playoffs at the bottom and why they got swiftly booted.

 

Knowing of their failure to take this team to to next step, they were faced with which direction to go last year, and they clearly just doubled down. I can’t say I believed Vlad and Springer would still suck, but my job isn’t dependent on it either and I’m not a professional with 50 people under me that are paid to perform with this stuff.

 

So on its own, it’s worthy of a hot seat and would be for most franchises in a similar position in all sports. But you combine the fact that they couldn’t develop any sort of future for the franchise and “help is one the way”, they should be fired now. GM first.

[Brownie19]

I saw him in Toronto in April

 

I saw Tom Segura at Casino Rama - and he had NO f***ING IDEA where he was...

[Jimcanuck]

I saw Tom Segura at Casino Rama - and he had NO f***ING IDEA where he was...

 

I have no f***ing idea where Casino Rama is. But I know where Toronto is.

[Jimcanuck]

My huge target was a $1.5m guy. You got me lol. I will take him over IKF all day still.

 

I did not stake anything on the Teo trade hill. It’s not about a single deal. It’s where they decided to take the team 2 years ago when they got bounced from the playoffs. They went into that offseason reacting to their weakness, but the next offseason, just doubled down on the obvious weakness.

 

I think two years ago was highly reactionary. It’s difficult to determine how those playoffs games go with a better OF. I say you can improve your playoff chances by doing this or that, but of course there will always be randomness that can supersede it. And those games the whole wheels just came apart. There were babip balls you couldn’t do anything with, and other balls where you can say maybe this guy could’ve gotten it. But they are maybes for sure. And so you can’t help that ball just getting hit to the wrong spot, at the totally wrong time.

 

But fine, the GM likes their guys and say, I think we can afford to maybe take a little step back in offense next year, but improve our D by a lot and we will be better. Can’t fault the logic. However, last year they were forced to deal with the reality that maybe their guys are not what they thought. Their limp noodle bats where why they whimpered into the playoffs at the bottom and why they got swiftly booted.

 

Knowing of their failure to take this team to to next step, they were faced with which direction to go last year, and they clearly just doubled down. I can’t say I believed Vlad and Springer would still suck, but my job isn’t dependent on it either and I’m not a professional with 50 people under me that are paid to perform with this stuff.

 

So on its own, it’s worthy of a hot seat and would be for most franchises in a similar position in all sports. But you combine the fact that they couldn’t develop any sort of future for the franchise and “help is one the way”, they should be fired now. GM first.

 

The main culprits are George, Vlad, Bo, and let's throw Manoah in there too. The FO has limited responsibility for these guys failing to perform.

 

The limited production by the farm system can be put on the FO to some extent, but we all know the draft and prospects are a crapshoot. The most recent evaluation of prospect success by org that I saw, the Jays were not near the bottom.

[Laika]

Mitch White is bouncing around every f***ing "pitching lab" team in baseball so if he sucks at the end of the season he needs to just retire.

 

Dodgers --> Jays --> Giants --> Brewers

[wilko]

Mitch White is bouncing around every f***ing "pitching lab" team in baseball so if he sucks at the end of the season he needs to just retire.

 

Dodgers --> Jays --> Giants --> Brewers

 

The boy's cooked.

[Laika]

The boy's cooked.

 

he's toasted

 

Mitch Black

[Spanky99]

I saw Tom Segura at Casino Rama - and he had NO f***ING IDEA where he was...

 

lol

[connorp]

The main culprits are George, Vlad, Bo, and let's throw Manoah in there too. The FO has limited responsibility for these guys failing to perform.

 

The limited production by the farm system can be put on the FO to some extent, but we all know the draft and prospects are a crapshoot. The most recent evaluation of prospect success by org that I saw, the Jays were not near the bottom.

 

I won’t define “you people”, but you’re smart enough to know you “you people” are… and you people are deathly allergic to anything resembling personal responsibility. That’s their f’n job, bro.

 

I woudlve thought Vlad would bounce back. Maybe the projections that don’t know inside info liked him for that too. The team is the one that knows the most. Has he been working at his swing, is it showing improvement, is he buying into changing his approach, etc

 

Manoah was always split 50/50 if he was good or backend SP. Nobody thought he’d be beyond awful but many thought backend arm. I thought middle, but again, I’m not paid for it. Team should know.

 

Springer, again I’m a fan, but I’m not seeing him up close every day. I don’t know if he’s cooked. Neither do you. The team should have an idea.

 

I’ll give you Bo. But really these guys are all human too and you can’t really quantify the effects of the likely s***** team disco check going on, but this is the reason human athletes can go different places and be better. I know if you look at Fangrpahs it’s like they’re robots, and I know for dudes like you that carried and inhaler around since you were 4yo, it’s tough thinking like an athlete, but they’re human and a s***** workplace vibe can effect performance.

 

FO needs to be nuked. At least GM

[connorp]

Of course no one is right all the time of even most of the time but if you can’t even scout 1 f***ing good OF prospect out of 10 years and 200+ rounds, maybe that tells you something

[Carlos Danger]

he's toasted

 

Mitch Black

 

That's racist

[Stangstag]

That's racist

 

Toasters and tires are inherently racist

[hanton]

Glasnow / King pitching duel

[connorp]

Man, Chapman really stinking it up. I’ve admitted plenty I was wrong on, but I definitely wasn’t on that train

[jaysblue]

Mitch White is bouncing around every f***ing "pitching lab" team in baseball so if he sucks at the end of the season he needs to just retire.

 

Dodgers --> Jays --> Giants --> Brewers

 

He'll end up pitching in the KBO or NPB for two seasons and then sign back with a MLB club after posting a sub-3 ERA.

[hanton]

Skenes is impressive

[hanton]

MLB.com: "Skenes K's 7 in debut as Pirates phenom tops 100 mph 17 times"

 

 

crazy inning in the 5th, after Skenes exited the bullpen went on to walk in 6 runs - in the same inning. Game is still in progress pirates ahead 10-8

[hanton]

Teo with his 11th, a grand slam

[Brownie19]

Teo with his 11th, a grand slam

Love to see it. Teo is simply a player who's easy to cheer for

[Omar]

Teo with his 11th, a grand slam

 

His bat flip was epic.

[Carlos Danger]

So there really was a whole Japanese restaurant booked for Ohtani during his FA.

 

 

https://www.sfgate.com/food/article/sf-japanese-restaurant-akari-shohei-ohtani-19450926.php

[G-Snarls]

Love to see it. Teo is simply a player who's easy to cheer for

 

And the one I miss the most

[BTS]

Watching Chris Sale pitch, and it prompted me to look at his career stats. Why is nobody talking about him as a HoFer? In terms of career accomplishments of active pitchers, he's in his own tier after Verlander/Scherzer/Kershaw. If he can stay on the mound for Atlanta for his contract he's going to end up with at least 2100 IP, 2500 Ks, ~55 fWAR, 150 wins, and a career ERA in the low 3s. I'm not sure there's an active pitcher younger than him who's going to touch those numbers.

[Laika]

Watching Chris Sale pitch, and it prompted me to look at his career stats. Why is nobody talking about him as a HoFer? In terms of career accomplishments of active pitchers, he's in his own tier after Verlander/Scherzer/Kershaw. If he can stay on the mound for Atlanta for his contract he's going to end up with at least 2100 IP, 2500 Ks, ~55 fWAR, 150 wins, and a career ERA in the low 3s. I'm not sure there's an active pitcher younger than him who's going to touch those numbers.

 

Cole

 

But yeah

[jaysblue]

Watching Chris Sale pitch, and it prompted me to look at his career stats. Why is nobody talking about him as a HoFer? In terms of career accomplishments of active pitchers, he's in his own tier after Verlander/Scherzer/Kershaw. If he can stay on the mound for Atlanta for his contract he's going to end up with at least 2100 IP, 2500 Ks, ~55 fWAR, 150 wins, and a career ERA in the low 3s. I'm not sure there's an active pitcher younger than him who's going to touch those numbers.

 

He's been money for the Braves this season. Loved that trade and he's healthy now. Nice gamble by the Braves.

 

5-1, 10.97 K/9, 1.69 BB/9, 2.95 ERA, 2.62 FIP, 1.2 fWAR and 52 K's in 42.2 innings over 7 starts. Looking great tonight against the Cubs as well.