General Blue Jays Discussion Thread (2024)

[Brownie19]

It really depends on how involved Shapiro actually is with the baseball decisions, development, etc.

 

Like is Shapiro there in the draft meetings discussing potential picks?? Obviously he’s a part of discussing big free agents like Soto and others… but like is Shapiro sitting there dissecting the numbers on a potential IKF signing, or calling GMs to see what trades are available?

 

If the answer to all those questions is YES, then firing him would certainly make a difference

 

That's true. I think it would be odd to have him calling other GM's to see who's available, but he may be there to ensure decisions "pass the smell test" and/or as a sounding board. I still think there are ways to impart real change that don't include firing Shapiro. Or at least I wouldn't be comfortable suggesting the ONLY way to see real change is to fire Shapiro.

[Omar]

I thought Atkins would get reassigned somewhere in the organization this off season. Somewhere way south where he can flex his Spanish speaking skills.

 

The way it is right now, cats are looking at Ross Atkins with envy based on the number of lives he has accrued.

 

As others have said it looks bad for the Jays org. No real accountability. Whatever happened to the buck stops here?

[glory]

I'm not sure I agree. Shapiro can fire Atkins and try another GM. It's not like that would be abnormal.

 

Would you like to see them fire Shapiro now, replace most of the staff and start the rebuild? Do you think that's the best direction for the franchise? Do you think that would impact our ability to resign Vlad (and/or Bo)?

 

I think Shapiro and Atkins are a package deal at this point, but who knows. What complicates things is Shapiro's deal ends after 2025 so I'm not sure it even makes sense for him to hire a new GM until it's clear that he's staying long term. Which leads to another issue: if he's not extended beyond 2025, then you have a lameduck president with a GM who is only sticking around because of said president making decisions during what could be one of the most important off seasons in Jays history.

[Brownie19]

I thought Atkins would get reassigned somewhere in the organization this off season. Somewhere way south where he can flex his Spanish speaking skills.

 

The way it is right now, cats are looking at Ross Atkins with envy based on the number of lives he has accrued.

 

As others have said it looks bad for the Jays org. No real accountability. Whatever happened to the buck stops here?

 

This is all about different perspectives. Ownership and/or Shapiro may have a totally different perspective of what success looks like than you do. You and I could have different perspectives. The FO inherited a 1 year contender in 2016 that we all knew would have several massive holes in it by 2017. They retooled and were back in the playoffs in 2020, had a great team (likely their best) that just missed out in 2021 and were in the playoffs in 2022 and 2023. Most know the playoffs are a crapshoot and s*** didn't work out. So in some views (perhaps including those who actually matter), results to date have been pretty good. 2024 was a disaster, but there is value in consistency and thus he's provided some leash to turn it around. I do suspect the leash is a lot shorter though...

 

You don't have to squint too hard to see how Ownership and Shapiro "could" view Atkins as doing a pretty solid job. The only way you truly don't is if you believe success is measured in playoff wins. You can believe that if you'd like - but you should at least acknowledge that others don't....and those others might be the ones who own the team and/or are the President of Baseball Operations.

 

Full disclosure - I'm kind of done with Atkins. I'd have no issue if they can him and try someone else. But I'm not ready to suggest the org is a joke with no accountability if they keep him.

[Brownie19]

I think Shapiro and Atkins are a package deal at this point, but who knows. What complicates things is Shapiro's deal ends after 2025 so I'm not sure it even makes sense for him to hire a new GM until it's clear that he's staying long term. Which leads to another issue: if he's not extended beyond 2025, then you have a lameduck president with a GM who is only sticking around because of said president making decisions during what could be one of the most important off seasons in Jays history.

 

I think that's fair. I'd like to see the org address the future of Shapiro. There are some major decisions to be made.

 

Would you like to see them fire them both right now and do you think that would impact Vlad's future? I happen to think that's a huge element to all of this. A new GM (and/or President) is likely to want to clean house to some extent. Not the best look if you're trying to extend your superstar player(s). Should we cut bait and start fresh - knowing that likely means we're dealing Vlad and Bo....or do you stand pat and let the lame duck President/GM make the decisions with Vlad/Bo? Fascinating times ahead for the Jays.

[John_Havok]

Games at RC are kind of turning into a summer pre-game event. Reminds me of Rockies games where they get a lot of female attendance.

 

I think the days of completely empty stadiums are gone for the foreseeable future. Shapiro probably has a lot of rope because of this.

 

This. Im not from TO and ive only been to two games at the RC, but both times they were just not really good fan experiences, IMO. you got your seat, which was turned slightly away from the action and, food was far away, drink options were limited, getting up to go get your food and drink cost you at least half an inning worht of time due to lines, how far you had to go, and just the overall non-convenience of the layout.

 

GOes without saying its been a few years since Ive been there and have not been theres since any of the new renovations so I cannot comment first hand on how it's changed, but i can say that from the outside, many of those added patios and places where people are more relaxed and actually enjoying a social occasion rather than just being glued to a seat pointed into left field, they are exactly what the place needed.

 

I'll also say that if the only way to have fun at a sports event is to see your team win, then ... you're missing like 90% of the point. That's not to excuse poorly run teams like the perennial bottom feeders either, and no it doesn't mean that winning isn't also a part of having fun.

 

From a purely business perspective, you want fans to come and have a great f***ing time regardless of the outcome, and then try to make sure that outcome is a win more often than not.

[Grant77]

I'm glad to see Guillermo Martinez let go. I'm fine with the rest of the staff, but it's been several years of disappointing/underperforming offenses. This is way overdue.

[Brownie19]

I'm glad to see Guillermo Martinez let go. I'm fine with the rest of the staff, but it's been several years of disappointing/underperforming offenses. This is way overdue.

 

Yep - after coaching a Top 3 offense in MLB from 2020 to 2022, Guillermo clearly fell behind the times and was no longer suitable to be the hitting coach. He seemed to completely forget what he was doing.

[John_Havok]

Yep - after coaching a Top 3 offense in MLB from 2020 to 2022, Guillermo clearly fell behind the times and was no longer suitable to be the hitting coach. He seemed to completely forget what he was doing.

 

Purely my speculation but...seems all these guys have a shelf life and will run into players that they just cant figure out how to correct, fix, or maintain. Like, sure, he was the hitting coach for some great offenses, but... the players that were in those offenses are largely gone, with the exception of Vlad, Bo and Kirk, all of whom underwent fairly drastic reductions in their offensive profiles over the past 2 seasons, with now some resurgence on 2 of the 3, and the 3rd can be largely attributed to injury issues.

 

So, it's hard to fully put it on Guillermo, but at the same time... why did it take 2 seasons to "fix" Vlad? Why did it take a ton of time to "fix" Kirk (if indeed he actually is..) How much credit does he get for Horwitz, or any of the buffalo guys when it seems that Matt Hague was largely responsible for them?

 

Its hard to say, I think it just comes down to him having lost the ability to communicate what he wants to communicate to the players he needs to communicate it to. it's probably not that he's giving guys the wrong advice, he's just giving it in a way that they aren't getting. Maybe it took him too long to identify the mechanical problems with the aforementioned players... maybe he knew exactly what the problem was but couldn't explain the fix right. Who knows?

 

At the end of the day, the offense has largely been declining for 2 straight seasons, so.. at some point he's going to get the blame. Some of it is on him, some of it is on the FO for trading away good hitters and not bringing back good hitters. Nature of the beast.

[jaysblue]

Atkins will be reassigned to first base coach.

[jaysblue]

Games at RC are kind of turning into a summer pre-game event. Reminds me of Rockies games where they get a lot of female attendance.

 

I think the days of completely empty stadiums are gone for the foreseeable future. Shapiro probably has a lot of rope because of this.

 

Me and Spanky getting numbers every game we go to! He's an awesome wingman!

[Brownie19]

Purely my speculation but...seems all these guys have a shelf life and will run into players that they just cant figure out how to correct, fix, or maintain. Like, sure, he was the hitting coach for some great offenses, but... the players that were in those offenses are largely gone, with the exception of Vlad, Bo and Kirk, all of whom underwent fairly drastic reductions in their offensive profiles over the past 2 seasons, with now some resurgence on 2 of the 3, and the 3rd can be largely attributed to injury issues.

 

So, it's hard to fully put it on Guillermo, but at the same time... why did it take 2 seasons to "fix" Vlad? Why did it take a ton of time to "fix" Kirk (if indeed he actually is..) How much credit does he get for Horwitz, or any of the buffalo guys when it seems that Matt Hague was largely responsible for them?

 

Its hard to say, I think it just comes down to him having lost the ability to communicate what he wants to communicate to the players he needs to communicate it to. it's probably not that he's giving guys the wrong advice, he's just giving it in a way that they aren't getting. Maybe it took him too long to identify the mechanical problems with the aforementioned players... maybe he knew exactly what the problem was but couldn't explain the fix right. Who knows?

 

At the end of the day, the offense has largely been declining for 2 straight seasons, so.. at some point he's going to get the blame. Some of it is on him, some of it is on the FO for trading away good hitters and not bringing back good hitters. Nature of the beast.

 

Yeah that's all fair and I get there are always some sacrificial lambs. At the end of the day, it's all just a big guess for us fans, which is why I'm typically defensive of fans suggesting supplemental coaches should lose their jobs. I hate that fans look at the results and say "see he sucks" so confidently - like changing the hitting coach will solve all the teams offensive problems, without acknowledging the same guy was the hitting coach during a very recent 3 year stretch were we were Top 3 in baseball.

 

In the same breath - shouldn't we fire Pete Walker too? The Jays pitching, especially the bullpen, sucked balls this year. Gausman, Berrios, etc. all declined - quick - blame the pitching coach - fire him right? Why hasn't Pete fixed Berrios? Why did Manoah stuff decline? Why couldn't he fix Mayza (who was back throwing 95+ with the Yanks like 1 month after leaving the Jays)? Why isn't Green getting results, despite great Stuff+? Why can't we develop any arms? Why is every RP prospect in AAA walking 8 guys per 9?

[Grant77]

Yep - after coaching a Top 3 offense in MLB from 2020 to 2022, Guillermo clearly fell behind the times and was no longer suitable to be the hitting coach. He seemed to completely forget what he was doing.

 

Veterans carried a lot of the weight in the successful years of 2021 and 2022. I was never happy with the development of younger players under his watch. I was also unhappy with the lack of a consistent approach and the way that the same obvious problems persisted with hitters for long periods. Not all of the blame lies with him, but I've been consistent with my criticism throughout.

[Spanky99]

That's great news. Incoming Horwitz 150 wRC+ season.

 

lol

[Stangstag]

Yeah that's all fair and I get there are always some sacrificial lambs. At the end of the day, it's all just a big guess for us fans, which is why I'm typically defensive of fans suggesting supplemental coaches should lose their jobs. I hate that fans look at the results and say "see he sucks" so confidently - like changing the hitting coach will solve all the teams offensive problems, without acknowledging the same guy was the hitting coach during a very recent 3 year stretch were we were Top 3 in baseball.

 

In the same breath - shouldn't we fire Pete Walker too? The Jays pitching, especially the bullpen, sucked balls this year. Gausman, Berrios, etc. all declined - quick - blame the pitching coach - fire him right? Why hasn't Pete fixed Berrios? Why did Manoah stuff decline? Why couldn't he fix Mayza (who was back throwing 95+ with the Yanks like 1 month after leaving the Jays)? Why isn't Green getting results, despite great Stuff+? Why can't we develop any arms? Why is every RP prospect in AAA walking 8 guys per 9?

 

I was fully onboard with firing ALL coaches a year ago. I like what im seeing so far. Blame has to be placed somewhere, and its felt like everyone has been given too much rope the past couple years.

 

Schneider should’ve been booted after the 2022 playoff fiasco IMO.

[Spanky99]

Shapiro and Atkins meeting with the media together on Wednesday.

 

 

That's some ugly optics, I assumed he'd at the least be reassigned to bag scratcher or something.

[Spanky99]

The coalition still believing in this FO is down to AA haters, Statkins cult fart sniffers, Hopium smokers and a few apologists.

 

If they make it through the off season, its show me time. Talk is cheap. Its only about results now - seats sold, eye balls watching and on the field performance convergence. They have been given a 3rd wildcard reprieve.

 

The Jays lost the fewest games to injury in MLB in 2024 and won 74 games with a luxury tax payroll. The next fewest games lost to injury in MLB were the Tigers with 54 more. There really aren't any good excuses left. Every team deals with IL losses, under performers and over performers every year.

 

The farm is bottom third to quarter depending on various rankings. Its just not good enough. We have become the old, expensive team other teams want to play.

 

What's going on dude, is he really coming back???

[Jimcanuck]

We seem to have forgotten Dante Bichette was the real hitting coach in the good years

[Spanky99]

Is that Spanky?

 

Me and Spanky getting numbers every game we go to! He's an awesome wingman!

 

I live in your head.

[hanton]

Atmosphere is wild at Petco....

[John_Havok]

Yeah that's all fair and I get there are always some sacrificial lambs. At the end of the day, it's all just a big guess for us fans, which is why I'm typically defensive of fans suggesting supplemental coaches should lose their jobs. I hate that fans look at the results and say "see he sucks" so confidently - like changing the hitting coach will solve all the teams offensive problems, without acknowledging the same guy was the hitting coach during a very recent 3 year stretch were we were Top 3 in baseball.

 

In the same breath - shouldn't we fire Pete Walker too? The Jays pitching, especially the bullpen, sucked balls this year. Gausman, Berrios, etc. all declined - quick - blame the pitching coach - fire him right? Why hasn't Pete fixed Berrios? Why did Manoah stuff decline? Why couldn't he fix Mayza (who was back throwing 95+ with the Yanks like 1 month after leaving the Jays)? Why isn't Green getting results, despite great Stuff+? Why can't we develop any arms? Why is every RP prospect in AAA walking 8 guys per 9?

 

I thought the same thing g about Walker, but pretty much settled on the following

 

He probably has nothing to do with minor league pitching development.

 

Berrios on field results are way better than peripherals so...hard to argue with that really.

Gausmans struggles can easily be pinned on injury and spring training. Plus he's been nailz in the second half... so hard to kill him on that.

He probably gets some heat for Bassitts downturn but then again...age will take some of that blame.

He's gonna get nothing but credit for Francis.

Yariel probably performed about as well as expected given his lack of pitching on the previous year. Hard to knock him for that.

 

As for the bullpen...injuries murdered. He can probably take some blame for Cabrera and Pop...but beyond that...ya can't make lemonade when all you're handed are turnips.

[jaysblue]

I live in your head.

 

We going to the Crocodile Rock Bar after the game to pick up some MILFs as well.

[John_Havok]

Buck Martinez takes today on Blair and Barker: not a fan of the Guillermo Martinez firing. Said he was a good coach when they had good hitters. Then says he thinks hitters are getting the wrong message.

 

Says Yariel should throw his fastball more, and stop throwing his other pitches until later.

 

Says Bowden Francis knows how to pitch.

 

loperfido needs to cut down the holes in his swing. Says changing his stance would be a good start.

 

On Vlad, "he has a number in his mind and that's what he wants" "but it's a two-way street" "Vlad deserves to be paid along the lines of Devers".

 

Gausman, Berrios and Bassitt - if he had to worry about 1 of them not being as good next year it would be Bassitt.

 

Back to Yariel...Says he should speed up his delivery and throw fastball more.

 

Pete Rose- says he was the most competitive player he ever saw. He only knew one way to play, full speed. Nobody outworked Pete Rose. Sad he never got his rightful place in the Hall of Fame, called out MLB hypocrisy in making so much money on gambling now.

[John_Havok]

Mlbtraderumours predictions for Blue Jays arbitration guys:

 

Vladimir Guerrero Jr. (5.157): $29.6MM

Erik Swanson (5.059): $3.2MM

Jordan Romano (5.051): $7.75MM

Genesis Cabrera (5.011): $2.5MM

Dillon Tate (4.144): $1.9MM

Daulton Varsho (4.128): $7.7MM

Alejandro Kirk (4.047): $4.1MM

Alek Manoah (3.063): $2.4MM

Zach Pop (2.171): $1MM

Ernie Clement (2.168): $1.7MM

[Barrelsandbombs]

Mlbtraderumours predictions for Blue Jays arbitration guys:

 

Vladimir Guerrero Jr. (5.157): $29.6MM

Erik Swanson (5.059): $3.2MM

Jordan Romano (5.051): $7.75MM

Genesis Cabrera (5.011): $2.5MM

Dillon Tate (4.144): $1.9MM

Daulton Varsho (4.128): $7.7MM

Alejandro Kirk (4.047): $4.1MM

Alek Manoah (3.063): $2.4MM

Zach Pop (2.171): $1MM

Ernie Clement (2.168): $1.7MM

 

The 60M total amount this group projects to make added to the 135M the Jays have committed pre-arb means if opening day payroll is similar to last season the Jays should have around 55M to spend in the offseason.

[John_Havok]

The 60M total amount this group projects to make added to the 135M the Jays have committed pre-arb means if opening day payroll is similar to last season the Jays should have around 55M to spend in the offseason.

 

Give or take yeah. Tate is probably a non tender, maybe they can save a few bucks on the guys that were injured and or sucked, but likely won't be significant.

 

Dollars available though will depend on how willing they are to exceed the luxury tax thresholds since they got under this season. Much like last season with Ohtani, there's probably multiple budgets being planned.

[Barrelsandbombs]

Give or take yeah. Tate is probably a non tender, maybe they can save a few bucks on the guys that were injured and or sucked, but likely won't be significant.

 

Dollars available though will depend on how willing they are to exceed the luxury tax thresholds since they got under this season. Much like last season with Ohtani, there's probably multiple budgets being planned.

 

I keep seeing 3 names getting brought up as possible non-tenders: Pop, Tate and Romano.

 

The last 2 seasons the opening day CBT payroll has been the same which is 250M. The Soto budget is probably higher than that, but hard to guess how much higher. Last year with Ohtani some speculated the Ohtani budget was double the regular budget, while others speculated they would spend over budget equal to his AAV amount.

[Laika]

Mlbtraderumours predictions for Blue Jays arbitration guys:

 

Vladimir Guerrero Jr. (5.157): $29.6MM

Erik Swanson (5.059): $3.2MM

Jordan Romano (5.051): $7.75MM

Genesis Cabrera (5.011): $2.5MM

Dillon Tate (4.144): $1.9MM

Daulton Varsho (4.128): $7.7MM

Alejandro Kirk (4.047): $4.1MM

Alek Manoah (3.063): $2.4MM

Zach Pop (2.171): $1MM

Ernie Clement (2.168): $1.7MM

 

Vladimir Guerrero Jr. (5.157): $29.6MM

Erik Swanson (5.059): $3.2MM

Jordan Romano (5.051): $7.75MM

Genesis Cabrera (5.011): $2.5MM

Dillon Tate (4.144): $1.9MM

Daulton Varsho (4.128): $7.7MM

Alejandro Kirk (4.047): $4.1MM

Alek Manoah (3.063): $2.4MM

Zach Pop (2.171): $1MM

Ernie Clement (2.168): $1.7MM

 

cut the bolded

 

Swanson the only tough call I think but he was really good for the last few weeks and the team needs actual human relievers so keep

[BTS]

Feels like they're going to pay Romano 8M or whatever then lose him to TJS after a few innings

[The_DH]

why would you cut Genesis Cabrera? But the others yes with some kind of invite offer.