General Blue Jays Discussion Thread (2024)

[The_DH]

I agree Horwitz probably needed some refinement at AAA so that was useful. I thought Votto was a worthwhile shot that didn't work out and Vogelbach was nothing but a waste of money and roster spot.

[Barrelsandbombs]

From Arden Zwelling and Ben Nicholson-Smith on At The Letters about Bassitt:

 

Ben: It definitely catches the attention of people within the organization. I don't think it was Chris Bassitt's intention to light a flame under the Blue Jays organization here and make them look bad at all. But in some ways, it did make them look bad. To that extent, that's not ideal.

 

Zwelling I've spoken to people with the organization in the last couple of days, just to ask, hey, how did this land with you? What was the fallout with you? They've said, yeah, we followed up with Chris.

 

On Bassitt's frustrations playing into his comments:

 

Zwelling: I think that the outcomes that the Blue Jays have had the last couple of years have been very frustrating. I'm sure that some of that frustration boils over when people ask him, hey, what went wrong? Why hasn't this worked out?

 

Ben: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I think, like, on the other hand, man, like, it's just rarely in any industry at any time, is it a great idea when you're speaking publicly about your bosses to go say, like, yeah, they didn't have a pivot. They didn't have a plan. And I know that I'm sure that wasn't his intention, but it's what he said.

 

Zwelling opines that the Blue Jays offseason can't be criticized because no one knows the full extent of how it played out outside of 12 people:

 

Just as the Bassitt comments have spurred a lot of conversations, like, externally, they've spurred a lot of conversations internally as well. And you and I are involved in some of those. I just talked to people around the ballpark. And I had somebody say to me yesterday, you know, there's only, like, 12 people on this earth who actually know the full encapsulation of what happened to us this offseason and how many things were actually in play and how many things weren't and how many trades were on the table and how far we got with certain free agents and how realistic it was that Shohei Ohtani would come here. Like, this is one of those 12 people who said that.

 

And look, like, the reality is, like, we don't know everything about the Blue Jays offseason. I can sit here and say they didn't do enough to address their offense. I think that much is clear. But I also, coming into the season, said, yeah, like, I think there's a way the Blue Jays could get into a wild card spot. So I'm also not going to sit here and say, I knew this was doomed. I told you all this was doomed. Of course this is what happened. Because that's not what I was saying coming in. I was saying, yeah, you know, if they get some things go right, like, this can definitely be a playoff team.

 

A lot of things went wrong instead. And clearly the Blue Jays should have done more to add power to their offense in the off season. But I also can't tell you everything that they tried to do in the off season. I know what their intention was. I don't know all of their actions. Like, we know some of it from having conversations and asking around, but we don't know all of it. There's plenty about this offseason that I don't know. So, I'm always kind of hesitant with just like, how convicted I am in saying, oh, the Blue Jays had this terrible offseason.

 

Ben disagrees with Zwelling by saying it's known what they actually did, and they can be judged on that. Not sure it can be said the bolded is true, that the fanbase was optimistic about the team heading into the season:

 

To me, I do feel confident in saying they had a bad offseason. They did. Like, to me, it's a fact. Now, that being said, I'm totally with you in saying that at the outset of this season, you can go back and listen to At The Letters, and you can find me saying that I thought they had a real shot to be a playoff team. Probably a wildcard team, I think, I would have said, just given the Yankees and Orioles. But I thought the Jays had a real shot, and we weren't alone in saying that. If you look at the entire media landscape, the entire baseball media landscape, look at the projections, which had the Blue Jays definitely as a fringe playoff team going into this season. So it was not, we were not alone in thinking that. I think that fans certainly had optimism about this team internally.

 

The players, of course, they believe that they would be able to do this. So it's a great point to say that it's not as though this was all foretold on Sportsnet.ca on March 15th that they were doomed. You know, that was not the way it worked. But at the same time, like looking at it now, I think that we don't need to know, and I have, I mean, I spent a lot of time and a lot of energy and had a lot of conversations reporting on the offseason to the extent that I possibly could last winter. So I think I have a pretty good idea of what went down to an extent. You're never gonna have a full picture, but end of the day, you don't have to be any sort of reporter or any sort of insider to know what happened, right?

 

We all know what happened. We all know what they actually did, and they can be judged on that. And what the job of an MLB front office is, is to come up with a plan and a vision and various contingencies and build the depth and adjust on the fly such that you can overcome the inevitable injuries, underperformances, and attrition that happens in the course of a baseball season. And the Jays just haven't done it.

 

Ben repeats a point he made earlier which I bolded:

 

Zwelling: I'm going to take Chris at his word from what he told Shi and I that, you know, when he talked about the pivot, he just meant there was not a realistic pivot that would be as good as Ohtani. And when he talks about unfixable problems, it is that the Blue Jays suffered a whole host of injuries, had a season go awry that is resulting in everyone being a year older. All those things suck and all those things are outside of the Blue Jays control.

 

Ben: And look, I mean, part of the job description, because, you know, I stand by what I said earlier, and that you're rarely going to advance, you know, you're standing by, you know, openly criticizing your bosses, no matter how valid the criticism is. That's usually, you know, probably safest to keep that behind closed doors. But hey, counter to that is this is major league baseball. And so part of the challenge for Ross Atkins or Mark Shapiro or John Schneider is they need to have a thick skin. They got to roll with this stuff.

 

Oddly specific unprompted denial from Zwelling below:

 

Can I clarify one more thing? Just very quickly, and I shouldn't even do this.

 

We went and we sought out Chris Bassitt and talked to him for 45 minutes. Chris Bassitt did not contact us. Blue Jays PR did not contact us. Rogers PR, Mark Shapiro did not call me in the middle of the day and say, hey, you've got to go massage this thing and clean up this mess for me.

 

Zwelling also makes an interesting comment referring to Ross as a "protagonist", although the questions they commonly get about Ross are about if he's going to get fired. Zwelling calling ross Ross a "protagonist" in this context could be seen as a biased view of him:

 

Ben: Are they going to fire Ross Atkins? Like, that is a question people ask. Are they going to extend Vlad Jr.? Are they going to call up Joey Votto? I think those are, what are they going to do with the trade deadline? That was a big one. So those are kind of the big themes that have been ongoing this year.

 

Zwelling: Those have been the main protagonists of the Blue Jays season, Vladimir Guerrero Jr, Ross Atkins, and Joey Votto. And two of them don't play for the team.

 

https://www.sportsnet.ca/podcasts/at-the-letters/summer-storylines/

[L54]

okay, updated Explanation B

 

Explanation B: Chris Bassitt meant that the front office / organization is "unfixable." The Jays front office asked their media wing to do damage control. The PR team had a sit down with Bassitt and told him he needed to spin this. Bassitt, who is very brave and willing to slam the front office in interviews, suddenly lost his spine and agreed to spin it and throw specific players under the bus. Two media lackeys flew in and did an interview with Bassitt, with the PR team having already vetted the answers. This was then published. Phew - player criticism of the front office successfully swept under the rug (at least, in the eyes of all the sheeple who do not think critically and wear blinders all the time). But it is important to point out that while Zwelling and Davidi are obviously Rogers shills/lackeys, the intrepid and heavy Jeffrey Blair, also a Rogers employee, is for some reason not and he is allowed to put forward any narrative he wants on his programming. Remember, Jeff Blair = gospel, Zwelling and Davidi = corporate shills. Nevermind that they all work for Rogers and that Davidi wrote the article and was interviewed by Blair. Don't think too hard about this. Don't actually read the text of the Blair interview, just let your body react to the tone of it. That's the way. Name your kids Elon and Remington. Never drink tapwater, they put microbots in the Flouride. Chemtrails etc.

 

Wat

[L54]

Pretty much the entire blue jays corner of the internet agrees that Bassitt’s comments were being critical of the FO to some extent except for like four little apologists on a blue jays message board 😂

 

Must be those four who are right mhmm insider knowledge from their friends in the khaki department

[Laika]

They are of course critical of the front office

He was obviously somewhat critical of the offseason and even if he was just saying the talent on the team is kind of unfixable, that is a form of criticism of the front office

 

that's not really in dispute

[L54]

Why is that stupid? Bassitt is a multi-millionaire already. Worst he could do is get himself on the naughty list and never get another job in baseball. More likely worst is he pisses off his current employer and finds himself with a new one. So if he gets happiness from dissing the front office then he is smart, because he is obtaining his goal in life. Not everyone cares about climbing the corporate food chain.

 

I think in general talking smack about your company isn't stupid if you have no long term need for a relationship with the company. In the cases I've disrespected the corporate chain of command, certainly I wasn't long for that one company, but overall it wasn't a stupid move and other companies didn't care.

 

We don't know what Bassitt's end goal is, but if he is dissing his boss it doesn't make him stupid. Framing it that way isn't right. We don't know what Bassitt wants in life. If he gets joy from a different style than you do, he's just a different cat trying to make himself happy by dissing the man. No stupidity there.

 

Because “Team Science” would never diss the man or even think of disobeying corporate orders

[John_Havok]

Pretty much the entire blue jays corner of the internet agrees that Bassitt’s comments were being critical of the FO to some extent except for like four little apologists on a blue jays message board ��

 

Must be those four who are right mhmm insider knowledge from their friends in the khaki department

 

I fully agree his statement was criticalmof the FO. I just dispute the specifics that people read into it... the "he must mean THIS specific criticism" and "Jays must have told him to walk back his comments" stuff.

 

That's all guys made up in people heads.

 

I'm sure the jays PR called Bassitt and alsed him what he meant for internal reasons. I don't think they forced him to put out an additional comment. I don't think they "sent" Shi or Zwelling out with instructions to get Bassitt to clarify anything. Any good Jays reporter would have seen that podcast and knew a follow up would be worthy of attention.

 

Is it possible? Sure. Anything is possible.

 

It's just weird around here when something regarding Jays staff, players etc happens, the people involved will al deny it happens a certain way, but people here will have already made up their minds about whatvtheybthink really happened and won't believe the denials.

 

Flip it, when multiple Jays office says yes, this is exactly what happened, we did this, it was this guys decision, this other guy had nothing to do with it, and everyone involved and thought to be involved all says the same thing, it's still not believed because people have already made up their mind about how it must have happened.

 

Whether it's a denial or a complete agreement, nope. Can't be that way, it must be what I think.

[BTS]

Very happy that Votto walked away instead of tarnishing his career with 20 games of 65 wRC+ ball for a last place team.

[L54]

Boss approaches Team Science

 

I need you to work late

 

But sir it’s Friday and it’s my sons 7th birthday party tonight

 

That’s too bad. There are spreadsheets to be punched. Numbers to crunch. Toilets to clean

 

Okay sir. May I Uber eats a chicken bacon ranch from subway?

 

No.

 

Okay

[John_Havok]

Very happy that Votto walked away instead of tarnishing his career with 20 games of 65 wRC+ ball for a last place team.

 

I selfishly wish though that he would be told the team his plans to retire so they could bring him to Toronto and announce it at the ballpark, even if it before the last game of the Reds/Jays series.

 

Wouldn't have had to call him up, or add him to the roster, just let him announce it there instead of from Buffalo.

 

But then, I guess the way he did it ultimately fits the type of guy he is

[The_DH]

From Arden Zwelling and Ben Nicholson-Smith on At The Letters about Bassitt:

 

 

 

On Bassitt's frustrations playing into his comments:

 

 

 

Zwelling opines that the Blue Jays offseason can't be criticized because no one knows the full extent of how it played out outside of 12 people:

 

 

 

Ben disagrees with Zwelling by saying it's known what they actually did, and they can be judged on that. Not sure it can be said the bolded is true, that the fanbase was optimistic about the team heading into the season:

 

 

 

Ben repeats a point he made earlier which I bolded:

 

 

 

Oddly specific unprompted denial from Zwelling below:

 

 

 

Zwelling also makes an interesting comment referring to Ross as a "protagonist", although the questions they commonly get about Ross are about if he's going to get fired. Zwelling calling ross Ross a "protagonist" in this context could be seen as a biased view of him:

 

 

 

https://www.sportsnet.ca/podcasts/at-the-letters/summer-storylines/

 

It probably made the front office look bad for one simple reason: they look bad because they suck. They had a realllllly bad last couple of years.

[L54]

Did anyone even read what he said to Shi and Arden?

 

“We signed unbelievable players. Justin Turner is an unbelievable player. An unbelievable teammate. Then we got IKF who we call the WAR king because Atkins milked so much WAR it was unbelievable. He is an unbelievable player too. Ross had an unbelievable offseason, it was just a bit short. But he did an unbelievable job.

 

We do, as an organization, unbelievable things around here. It’s truly incredible. They treat our families unbelievably. It really is unbelievable.”

 

Sounds completely authentic

[The_DH]

Did anyone even read what he said to Shi and Arden?

 

“We signed unbelievable players. Justin Turner is an unbelievable player. An unbelievable teammate. Then we got IKF who we call the WAR king because Atkins milked so much WAR it was unbelievable. He is an unbelievable player too. Ross had an unbelievable offseason, it was just a bit short. But he did an unbelievable job.

 

We do, as an organization, unbelievable things around here. It’s truly incredible. They treat our families unbelievably. It really is unbelievable.”

 

Sounds completely authentic

 

Justin Turner was all but done but I'm sure he's an unbelievable teammate. IKF was a slightly better return than planned. Vogelbach was a great teammate too. They just needed some big bats. Still do.

[L54]

Justin Turner was all but done but I'm sure he's an unbelievable teammate. IKF was a slightly better return than planned. Vogelbach was a great teammate too. They just needed some big bats. Still do.

 

I don’t disagree but unless his favourite adjective is unbelievable it was strange to use the word so many times

[The_DH]

It was an obvious response to someone being pushed into the response. Time to admit it, Ross was impotent.

[Brownie19]

I don’t disagree but unless his favourite adjective is unbelievable it was strange to use the word so many times

 

It's like he's mocking the 45th president of the united states.

[jaysblue]

I get the sense that a lot of other players, especially some vets, feel the same way about the front office. Bassitt was the one willing to speak out about it for whatever reason. I don't think this FO is transparent enough when it comes to communicating with players. Jeff Blair brought this up in one of his podcasts this week.

 

Look at the Berrios situation from 2023 as an example. I still think that decision rubbed a lot of guys the wrong way. Imagine Gausman or Bassitt pitching in that game cruising along, and they get pulled in the 4th inning?

[Laika]

there is a string of anti-player stuff for sure

 

breaking up the barrio, maybe the teoscar trade in some ways, pulling Berrios

 

not sure what else but there might be other instances

[L54]

It's like he's mocking the 45th president of the united states.

 

Well I’m glad he didn’t do the 46th and s*** his pants

[Omar]

Because “Team Science” would never diss the man or even think of disobeying corporate orders

 

Team Science is baseball equivalent of Banting/Best. You know, the guys who isolated insulin hormone and won the Nobel Prize.

 

Team Flat earth are the baseball equivalent of the guys who got a picture of Bigfoot.

 

[Krylian]

So is Votto getting inducted into the HOF wearing a Jays jersey?

[max silver]

Well I’m glad he didn’t do the 46th and s*** his pants

 

There are rumors of the 45th dude s***ing his pants on a tv set.

[L54]

There are rumors of the 45th dude s***ing his pants on a tv set.

 

Nice I bet that made you happy

[max silver]

Nice I bet that made you happy

 

Can't say what my emotional state was at the time of hearing that little tidbit.

[Jays24]

So is Votto getting inducted into the HOF wearing a Jays jersey?

 

I know the comment was a joke but it got me thinking whether Votto's a sure bet for the HoF. There are so many greats who still aren't in man.

 

I do love that about baseball as they totally make you earn being in the HoF whereas it's open to everyone in other sports.

[Orgfiller]

I know the comment was a joke but it got me thinking whether Votto's a sure bet for the HoF. There are so many greats who still aren't in man.

 

I do love that about baseball as they totally make you earn being in the HoF whereas it's open to everyone in other sports.

 

If you sort the MLB wRC+ leaderboards for careers, Joey Votto slots in at 50th best all-time. That's ahead of legends and recent inductees like Albert Pujols, Chipper Jones, Alex Rodriguez, David Ortiz, Larry Walker, Reggie Jackson, Miguel Cabrera.

 

Joey Votto is a slam-dunk HOF. One of the best hitters of his generation, MVP, generally likeable guy by the media and fans.

[Olerud363]

If you sort the MLB wRC+ leaderboards for careers, Joey Votto slots in at 50th best all-time. That's ahead of legends and recent inductees like Albert Pujols, Chipper Jones, Alex Rodriguez, David Ortiz, Larry Walker, Reggie Jackson, Miguel Cabrera.

 

Joey Votto is a slam-dunk HOF. One of the best hitters of his generation, MVP, generally likeable guy by the media and fans.

 

Games 2056 to 2200

 

Lifetime 58 to 57

 

Top 3

 

7.3, 6.9, 6.4 to 8.1, 8.1, 5.8

 

wRC+ 145 to 130

 

FG defense -150 to -50

 

If you believe fangraphs defense it's pretty close... Voto ahead per game. Olerud better best 3 seasons suprisingly since Votto won an MVP.

 

I will die on this hill. Cito Gaston cost Olerud a hall of fame career. 200 missing games, platoonish 15 homer 60 rbi seasons in his prime where he had to sit for old Pat Tabler and Jacob Brumfield.

 

Olerud's performance increased when playing everyday... the platoon seasons probably demoralized him...

 

If this happened today there would be riots in the street, but no one knew the fangraphs at the time.

[Olerud363]

Games 2056 to 2200

 

Lifetime 58 to 57

 

Top 3

 

7.3, 6.9, 6.4 to 8.1, 8.1, 5.8

 

wRC+ 145 to 130

 

FG defense -150 to -50

 

If you believe fangraphs defense it's pretty close... Voto ahead per game. Olerud better best 3 seasons suprisingly since Votto won an MVP.

 

I will die on this hill. Cito Gaston cost Olerud a hall of fame career. 200 missing games, platoonish 15 homer 60 rbi seasons in his prime where he had to sit for old Pat Tabler and Jacob Brumfield.

 

Olerud's performance increased when playing everyday... the platoon seasons probably demoralized him...

 

If this happened today there would be riots in the street, but no one knew the fangraphs at the time.

 

I think the mid 90s Jays organization also cost Delgado the hall of fame... At 21 Delgado was right there with the best hitting prospects in baseball, Thome, Manny Ramirez, and he honestly didn't start reaching his potential until Gaston left in 98... Delgado probably also missed 200 games because the Jays couldn't get him started early.

 

One thing Guerrero has is despite struggles at times he hasn't missed a game because of demotion or strange 'need to learn young man' ********. So if Guerrero lasts as long as Delgado he'll have an extra 300 games on the early end.

[Spanky99]

Very happy that Votto walked away instead of tarnishing his career with 20 games of 65 wRC+ ball for a last place team.

 

He stuck to his word and did it right, he wanted to earn the spot and couldn't, great career, enjoy retired life Joey!

[Spanky99]

Well I’m glad he didn’t do the 46th and s*** his pants

 

lol