General Blue Jays Discussion Thread (2024)

[BTS]

So Toronto has the lowest average bat speed (bad) BUT ALSO the shortest average swing length (good?)

 

If someone had asked me to guess what team fits this profile I would have said Cleveland

[Spanky99]

It's crazy to think but that was 10 years ago. I'm sure alot of those reports were getting shredded around baseball.

 

There was a poster here, that was ridiculed for catcher WAR and framing, it turned out he was bang on.

[MikeM3]

There was a poster here, that was ridiculed for catcher WAR and framing, it turned out he was bang on.

 

AA's largest contract was also to Russ Martin.

[Spanky99]

AA's largest contract was also to Russ Martin.

 

No brainer deal, loved it.

[wilko]

Because we're not analytical! I've been saying this for 3 years. Atkins is an ex player. Everyone here attached themselves to him because they thought they were getting a holier than though I know better than you GM but they didn't get that.

 

I've been saying this for 4 years.

[Laika]

There was a poster here, that was ridiculed for catcher WAR and framing, it turned out he was bang on.

 

who what

[Laika]

AA's largest contract was also to Russ Martin.

 

AA gets a lot of unwarranted Jays fan flak for being "not analytical"

 

But in reality, separating the wheat from the chaff is his job. 90% of the analytics product is probably worthless or not operable. If you are a junior analyst and he was shredding your reports, maybe you should have just locked in and made better reports. Be a better scientist.

[Spanky99]

who what

 

You don't remember? North.

[glory]

AA in 2015 was more “analytical” than AA in 2013. Either that or he just got better. Going from “building a track team” or whatever Beeston described it as when they acquired Reyes and Bonifacio to getting JD, Martin, Saunders (pre injury), Travis, etc, was a pretty big shift. AA is obviously smarter now after LA, but in hindsight after seeing what Atkins has done, I think even pre-LA Alex would have done as good or better had he stayed. Which is more an indictment on how disappointing Shatkins has been (especially from an analytical and player development standpoint) than longing for AA.

[MikeM3]

Michael Saunders 48% pull. Devon Travis 5 war in 2 years. Biggio career war 6.

[Laika]

Michael Saunders 48% pull. Devon Travis 5 war in 2 years. Biggio career war 6.

 

This current offense just seems like such a strange assortment of players. It's like Ross has a personality disorder and one year he likes these kinds of guys and the next he thinks he needs to sprinkle a completely different archetype into the equation.

[MikeM3]

This current offense just seems like such a strange assortment of players. It's like Ross has a personality disorder and one year he likes these kinds of guys and the next he thinks he needs to sprinkle a completely different archetype into the equation.

 

Turner is a super old school signing when Horwitz projects better against RHP and you can sign Pham on a minor league deal to hit the lefties and back up OF so you don't need KK.

[Laika]

The 2015 and 2016 Jays, almost the entire team liked to pull the ball and hit flyballs

 

2015 Jays, pull% rank = #2

flyball% rank = #7

 

2016, pull% = rank #4

flyball% rank = #5

 

2023 Jays pull% = rank 25

2024 = 28

 

2023 Jays flyball% = rank 16

2024 = rank 19

 

2021 Jays were top 7 in both categories.

 

This team just has no f***ing identity. I guess they have tried to pursue short swing / contact hitters to the extent that that is basically the team identity right now? So it's a contact and defense oriented team, with negative baserunning because there are multiple fat f***s in the middle of the lineup? lmao

and then a couple of divergent tank yankers sprinkled in there like Varsho and Jansen (thank god for them).

[Laika]

Turner is a super old school signing when Horwitz projects better against RHP and you can sign Pham on a minor league deal to hit the lefties and back up OF so you don't need KK.

 

The JT signing probably had more to do with who was willing to sign here than much else. Who knows. Maybe guys like Pederson and JDM were being f***y and non-committal.

 

He's just a guy who can square up the ball and pull flyballs often enough to be decent.

[BigCecil]

Tabby would have been in full rut over JT if he was still on our broadcast:

 

"He is a ballplayer"

"He knows how to play the game"

"He has big strong hands"

"He is just a professional hitter"

"He brings vetrin presents to this clubhouse and is like having another hitting coach"

 

...and so on.

[wilko]

The JT signing probably had more to do with who was willing to sign here than much else. Who knows. Maybe guys like Pederson and JDM were being f***y and non-committal.

 

He's just a guy who can square up the ball and pull flyballs often enough to be decent.

 

Baby Bo wanted him, so being the cuck he is.. Ross got em.

[Laika]

Tabby would have been in full rut over JT if he was still on our broadcast:

 

"He is a ballplayer"

"He knows how to play the game"

"He has big strong hands"

"He is just a professional hitter"

"He brings vetrin presents to this clubhouse and is like having another hitting coach"

 

...and so on.

 

Hey, maybe he will have a positive influence on some guys like Schneider and Clement! who knows

[wilko]

Tabby would have been in full rut over JT if he was still on our broadcast:

 

"He is a ballplayer"

"He knows how to play the game"

"He has big strong hands"

"He is just a professional hitter"

"He brings vetrin presents to this clubhouse and is like having another hitting coach"

 

...and so on.

 

"He's a good lookin' player"

[BigCecil]

Hey, maybe he will have a positive influence on some guys like Schneider and Clement! who knows

 

I don't doubt it. He is a smart hitter. Just being facetious at ol' Tabby's expense.

 

Hazel Mae made a big deal, and the camera panned on JT talking to Biggio a few weeks ago on the dugout steps, while the broadcast was going on about the knowledge he was passing on.

 

Whatever wisdom JT imparted on Biggio, it sure hasn't taken yet.

[Orgfiller]

The 2015 and 2016 Jays, almost the entire team liked to pull the ball and hit flyballs

 

2015 Jays, pull% rank = #2

flyball% rank = #7

 

2016, pull% = rank #4

flyball% rank = #5

 

2023 Jays pull% = rank 25

2024 = 28

 

2023 Jays flyball% = rank 16

2024 = rank 19

 

2021 Jays were top 7 in both categories.

 

This team just has no f***ing identity. I guess they have tried to pursue short swing / contact hitters to the extent that that is basically the team identity right now? So it's a contact and defense oriented team, with negative baserunning because there are multiple fat f***s in the middle of the lineup? lmao

and then a couple of divergent tank yankers sprinkled in there like Varsho and Jansen (thank god for them).

 

I feel like this is a bit of backwards way of looking at things, IMO. It's not revisionist to say that the 2015 and 16 offenses were better than this group, but that's because they had three monsters in JD, Bautista and EE in the middle of the lineup. I think the fact they were all mostly - JD wasn't your typical pull guy - dead pull hitters is gonna skew those results to make it seem like the only way/most effective way to build an elite offense is by putting in a bunch of pull hitters in there.

 

Of course there's something to be said to have a team identity and philosophy that's conducive to good hitting, but at the end of the day you gotta have elite talent carrying the production. If the lineup had an Acuna, Miguel Cabrera, Manny Ramirez, JD Martinez (the prime version), even a Kevin Youkilis, it wouldn't matter that those guys aren't pulling the ball all the time to get to their power because they're overall monsters. Just look at the Yankees with Soto and Judge as an example. Or the Dodgers monster combo of Betts-Ohtani-Freeman-Smith, neither of those guys are dead pull hitters. The Dodgers are 23rd in pull% lol, the Yankees 27th, one spot ahead of the Jays. Of course, it's a different story when you factor in hard hit %.

 

Naturally, you want the guys like Varsho and Schneider pulling the ball since they don't have the bat control or physical tools to make strong contact the other way, and the best way to get to their power is selling out in front. Someone like Bo perhaps could try a bit harder to pull the ball, but it's not like his all-fields approach hasn't been effective throughout his career, this season notwithstanding. For Vlad it's the same issues he's had since he was a 20 year old, save for one miracle season in 2021: he just doesn't know how to lift the ball effectively despite having top of the charts power.

 

It's a personnel issue more than a philosophy issue IMO. Maybe the FO and coaches aren't good enough at providing hitters with the best info to get the most out of them, or the players are too stupid or stubborn to adjust to what they're being fed. It's fine that Varsho, Schneider and Jansen have success in a different way than how Bo, Vlad and Kirk would. It's just that the latter three have cratered and are having none, which is killing the team.

[Laika]

I feel like this is a bit of backwards way of looking at things, IMO. It's not revisionist to say that the 2015 and 16 offenses were better than this group, but that's because they had three monsters in JD, Bautista and EE in the middle of the lineup. I think the fact they were all mostly - JD wasn't your typical pull guy - dead pull hitters is gonna skew those results to make it seem like the only way/most effective way to build an elite offense is by putting in a bunch of pull hitters in there.

 

Of course there's something to be said to have a team identity and philosophy that's conducive to good hitting, but at the end of the day you gotta have elite talent carrying the production. If the lineup had an Acuna, Miguel Cabrera, Manny Ramirez, JD Martinez (the prime version), even a Kevin Youkilis, it wouldn't matter that those guys aren't pulling the ball all the time to get to their power because they're overall monsters. Just look at the Yankees with Soto and Judge as an example. Or the Dodgers monster combo of Betts-Ohtani-Freeman-Smith, neither of those guys are dead pull hitters. The Dodgers are 23rd in pull% lol, the Yankees 27th, one spot ahead of the Jays. Of course, it's a different story when you factor in hard hit %.

 

Naturally, you want the guys like Varsho and Schneider pulling the ball since they don't have the bat control or physical tools to make strong contact the other way, and the best way to get to their power is selling out in front. Someone like Bo perhaps could try a bit harder to pull the ball, but it's not like his all-fields approach hasn't been effective throughout his career, this season notwithstanding. For Vlad it's the same issues he's had since he was a 20 year old, save for one miracle season in 2021: he just doesn't know how to lift the ball effectively despite having top of the charts power.

 

It's a personnel issue more than a philosophy issue IMO. Maybe the FO and coaches aren't good enough at providing hitters with the best info to get the most out of them, or the players are too stupid or stubborn to adjust to what they're being fed. It's fine that Varsho, Schneider and Jansen have success in a different way than how Bo, Vlad and Kirk would. It's just that the latter three have cratered and are having none, which is killing the team.

 

so you're calling me an idiot eh

[Stangstag]

so you're calling me an idiot eh

 

*your

[Krylian]

*your

 

His what?

[glory]

The 2015 and 2016 Jays, almost the entire team liked to pull the ball and hit flyballs

 

2015 Jays, pull% rank = #2

flyball% rank = #7

 

2016, pull% = rank #4

flyball% rank = #5

 

2023 Jays pull% = rank 25

2024 = 28

 

2023 Jays flyball% = rank 16

2024 = rank 19

 

2021 Jays were top 7 in both categories.

 

This team just has no f***ing identity. I guess they have tried to pursue short swing / contact hitters to the extent that that is basically the team identity right now? So it's a contact and defense oriented team, with negative baserunning because there are multiple fat f***s in the middle of the lineup? lmao

and then a couple of divergent tank yankers sprinkled in there like Varsho and Jansen (thank god for them).

 

There was an organizational shift in 2023. Something drastically changed within with the org with the way they viewed offense, both in the Majors and Minors, and I have no idea who the culprit(s) is or was. It's like Atkins saw what happened in Game 2 of the Seattle series and said "we aren't Guardian enough", and proceeded to model the entire org around Cleveland except without Jose Ramirez and with a $100m rotation rather than developing it internally.

[Krylian]

Too bad we don't have Otto Lopez to swap in fore Biggio right now.

[Stangstag]

His what?

 

His idiot brain

[Stangstag]

Too bad we don't have Otto Lopez to swap in fore Biggio right now.

 

Too bad we don’t have any good lefty bats in the minors that have experience in RF

[wilko]

Too bad we don’t have any good lefty bats in the minors that have experience in RF

 

You forgot handsome.

[Orgfiller]

so you're calling me an idiot eh

 

You summarized it a lot better than I did.

 

But in all seriousness, I really do think it's all down to the personnel and/or the info being fed to them from the FO/coaching stuff. Cito aside, nobody was telling those studs on the 15 and 16 teams what to do, they just knew how to prepare and execute every night. And they did regrettably have a weakness against the Cleveland softballers in the playoffs, so it's not like they were prepared for everything. On these teams, if Vlad and Bo sucks there's nothing the rest of the team can do to make up for your middle of the order hitters not contributing. You can even get away with Kirk just being a defensive savant and Springer being average (not that he has been this season), but the bulk needs to come from somewhere.

[The_DH]

any thought that yesterday's Garcia and Romano appearances may have been advertising? Baltimore could probably use the two of them. Holliday and nothing less would be required.