General Blue Jays Discussion Thread (2024)

[Eat My Shatkins]

Ok let's say we waited out the market and didn't sign IFK and instead signed Urshela for a few mil. Same with KK and others. Under that scenario, the people bitching would have:

 

-Been losing their marbles all offseason about Atkins not doing anything

-They would have been furious when we signed Urshela instead of Chapman

-Overall their panties would have been more more bunched than they already are

 

 

 

There is a select group of posters here who make it their mission to bitch about everything.

[BTS]

Ok let's say we waited out the market and didn't sign IFK and instead signed Urshela for a few mil. Same with KK and others. Under that scenario, the people bitching would have:

 

-Been losing their marbles all offseason about Atkins not doing anything

-They would have been furious when we signed Urshela instead of Chapman

-Overall their panties would have been more more bunched than they already are

 

Also - I think it's pretty clear that the team thinks IKF projects better than Urshela this year, given that they jumped on him early when Urshela was still available. If their assessments have IKF as the better player this year by, say, 0.5-1 win. It's perfectly justifiable to prefer spending 7.5M on IKF instead of 2 or 3? on Urshela. Fans are considering Urshela and Rosario as completely interchangeable with IKF, but the team probably doesn't see it that way.

[connorp]

That's not actually true though. Teams like TB, LAD, ATL all spent IKF money or more on players expected to be worth about 1 win this season.

 

in.

 

You realize I’m the guy telling you guys all the time that offensive and defensive WAR are paid on completely different levels?

[BTS]

You realize I’m the guy telling you guys all the time that offensive and defensive WAR are paid on completely different levels?

 

I'm not talking about offensive players though. I posted this a few weeks ago, but:

 

Dodgers just gave Heyward 9M for 1 year and Hernandez 4M. Joe Kelly 8M.

Rays gave Phil Maton 6.5M

Braves gave Joe Jimenez 3/26 and Reynaldo Lopez 3/30

Orioles have Kimbrel 13M

Phillies gave Merrifield 8M

[deanmike]

It's mainly IKF's 2nd year that confuses me. Atkins correctly realized that in absence of landing Ohtani there were basically no other position players worth sacrificing future spending ability on...but IKF is the outlier? What makes him so special where he's the only position player the team added who got more than 1 year?

 

I think my preference would have been for Atkins to continue executing his backup plan to perfection with 1 year deals only for non Ohtani FA position players. Instead he only executed it to near perfection.

[connorp]

Ok let's say we waited out the market and didn't sign IFK and instead signed Urshela for a few mil. Same with KK and others. Under that scenario, the people bitching would have:

 

-Been losing their marbles all offseason about Atkins not doing anything

-They would have been furious when we signed Urshela instead of Chapman

-Overall their panties would have been more more bunched than they already are

 

This isn’t accurate for a few reasons. First, yes, anything less than Chapman or similar wouldn’t land well, which you could say is unfair maybe but true.

 

Signing IKF didn’t appease anything. That action didn’t calm down anyone complaining about a bad off season. It triggered the trolls like me even. You could say that about Turner only. KK even was an odd fit and people are like, ok. Not against it but it really wasn’t anything appeasing anyone.

 

If they stayed on Chapman until the end, and lost out, again yeah you’d have bitching that they ended up with a second rate solution but as of now, it’s: You f***ed up Plan A and then you can’t even do Plan B right

[Spanky99]

This isn’t accurate for a few reasons. First, yes, anything less than Chapman or similar wouldn’t land well, which you could say is unfair maybe but true.

 

Signing IKF didn’t appease anything. That action didn’t calm down anyone complaining about a bad off season. It triggered the trolls like me even. You could say that about Turner only. KK even was an odd fit and people are like, ok. Not against it but it really wasn’t anything appeasing anyone.

 

If they stayed on Chapman until the end, and lost out, again yeah you’d have bitching that they ended up with a second rate solution but as of now, it’s: You f***ed up Plan A and then you can’t even do Plan B right

 

[Terminator]

This isn’t accurate for a few reasons. First, yes, anything less than Chapman or similar wouldn’t land well, which you could say is unfair maybe but true.

 

Signing IKF didn’t appease anything. That action didn’t calm down anyone complaining about a bad off season. It triggered the trolls like me even. You could say that about Turner only. KK even was an odd fit and people are like, ok. Not against it but it really wasn’t anything appeasing anyone.

 

If they stayed on Chapman until the end, and lost out, again yeah you’d have bitching that they ended up with a second rate solution but as of now, it’s: You f***ed up Plan A and then you can’t even do Plan B right

 

I'm not saying signing IKF appeased anything. It clearly didn't. But most IKF haters are saying what a waste of money he was and how we could have waited and gotten a deal on Urshela or someone like that.

 

But let's say we did wait and then signed Urshela. You would have been bitching all the same from November through February about not signing anyone (just like you were about signing IKF). Then when we did sign Urshela instead of Chapman you would have been bitching even harder.

[Terminator]

It's also possible that the team that got a 45 homer season out of Semien, a Cy Young out of Robbie Ray, 2 WAR out of Belt, 2 WAR out of KK, etc. has hit on more short term deals again.

 

Haters will point out the Morales and Roark signings which is fair but I think overall it's hard to criticize what Atkins has done in the FA market. Everyone is acting like the IKF deal is a guaranteed loss but if their internal projections are right they are going to be getting plenty of surplus value and will make these signings wins despite the slight overpay.

[John_Havok]

I'm not saying signing IKF appeased anything. It clearly didn't. But most IKF haters are saying what a waste of money he was and how we could have waited and gotten a deal on Urshela or someone like that.

 

But let's say we did wait and then signed Urshela. You would have been bitching all the same from November through February about not signing anyone (just like you were about signing IKF). Then when we did sign Urshela instead of Chapman you would have been bitching even harder.

 

This is why my ignore list is so long. Most of them don’t even know Urshela is coming off a broken pelvis injury, surgery and recovery so it’s really easy to understand why a contending team wouldn’t want to roll that dice and why his market was so soft. Facts don’t matter though, just feelings and ignorant ramblings.

 

Connorp though isn’t that kind of fan though, he just likes to stir the pot a bit. Easy to recognize his trolls versus his actual opinions.

 

The constant bitch and moaners though, you’re right. Could present any hundred scenarios of the off-season and they’d whine and bitch about every single one even if the FO did exactly what the thought they should do because a signing came a few days after it should have, or the contract was signed in blue ink rather than black

[MikeM3]

It's also possible that the team that got a 45 homer season out of Semien, a Cy Young out of Robbie Ray, 2 WAR out of Belt, 2 WAR out of KK, etc. has hit on more short term deals again.

 

Haters will point out the Morales and Roark signings which is fair but I think overall it's hard to criticize what Atkins has done in the FA market. Everyone is acting like the IKF deal is a guaranteed loss but if their internal projections are right they are going to be getting plenty of surplus value and will make these signings wins despite the slight overpay.

 

That's what we needed Term. Chad Atkins signing *high ceiling* FAs so we have a chance to jump up the win curve.

 

If he lost that part of his game then the shows over

[MikeM3]

I'm not talking about offensive players though. I posted this a few weeks ago, but:

 

Dodgers just gave Heyward 9M for 1 year and Hernandez 4M. Joe Kelly 8M.

Rays gave Phil Maton 6.5M

Braves gave Joe Jimenez 3/26 and Reynaldo Lopez 3/30

Orioles have Kimbrel 13M

Phillies gave Merrifield 8M

 

LAD and ATL are operating differently. Of course you sign Heyward to fill a specific need when you just added Ohtani to a 100 win team.

[Spanky99]

lulz

[Laika]

LAD and ATL are operating differently. Of course you sign Heyward to fill a specific need when you just added Ohtani to a 100 win team.

 

Plenty more examples of teams misplaying the market

 

Basically every team other than the Cubs and the poor teams f***ed up at least once with an early signing. And the Cubs like to act poor anyway so they probably weren't even being smart

[Terminator]

That's what we needed Term. Chad Atkins signing *high ceiling* FAs so we have a chance to jump up the win curve.

 

If he lost that part of his game then the shows over

 

I hear ya but it is the one thing he inarguably does very well. We've got to see better results with player development and the onfield performance dept. Big year for Ross.

[hanton]

Henry ......get down on your knees bro

[Laika]

I hear ya but it is the one thing he inarguably does very well. We've got to see better results with player development and the onfield performance dept. Big year for Ross.

 

The entire 3B issue is essentially a player dev issue anyway

 

They don't sign IKF if they have actual confidence in someone like Orelvis or Barger

[BTS]

So who do we think is getting pushed from the roster with Serven needing to be added? Everything kind of points to an Espinal trade. It would clear a 40-man spot for Serven, and a 26-man spot for Clement, who can't be optioned.

[Terminator]

This is why my ignore list is so long. Most of them don’t even know Urshela is coming off a broken pelvis injury, surgery and recovery so it’s really easy to understand why a contending team wouldn’t want to roll that dice and why his market was so soft. Facts don’t matter though, just feelings and ignorant ramblings.

 

Yeah most of these other signings aren't exactly clear cut fits either.

 

-Rosario's defense looks shot and the Rays are going to be playing him in the outfield and 2B as much as they will SS. Not sure he's cut out for 3B.

-Tim Anderson got a full time SS job in the city of Miami; that opportunity eclipses what he would have gotten here.

-Urshela is getting old and coming off a big injury.

[Terminator]

So who do we think is getting pushed from the roster with Serven needing to be added? Everything kind of points to an Espinal trade. It would clear a 40-man spot for Serven, and a 26-man spot for Clement, who can't be optioned.

 

An Espinal trade makes sense. We could also just trade Clement himself. Or maybe someone would want Lukes?

 

On the pitching side I could see us trading Richards. Or we could DFA Pop or Little. Zulu is getting closer to the chopping block as well but he's probably got another season.

 

And that's just to add Serven. If we want to add Vogelbach or Votto we'll have to make 2 moves.

[Spanky99]

What in the ever loving f*** was that, JH??? Jimenez, lmao... you're high!

[John_Havok]

An Espinal trade makes sense. We could also just trade Clement himself. Or maybe someone would want Lukes?

 

On the pitching side I could see us trading Richards. Or we could DFA Pop or Little. Zulu is getting closer to the chopping block as well but he's probably got another season.

 

And that's just to add Serven. If we want to add Vogelbach or Votto we'll have to make 2 moves.

 

Possibilities IMO include Leo Jimenez as a straight DFA. Superfluous IF with a noodle bat that won’t be missed. I mean, his ceiling at this point is Espinal-lite.

 

The other move I think would be a trade to clear a spot, but if the decision needs to be made for Votto, that decision likely isn’t needing to be made for a while yet. Sounds like he’s willing to start in AAA until he feels like he’s ready.

[John_Havok]

What in the ever loving f*** was that, JH??? Jimenez, lmao... you're high!

 

Really? Why is a Jimenez untouchable if you need a 40 man spot? He profiles as a backup MIF, you can sign any one of 15 of those kinds of guys in any offseason

[MikeM3]

Plenty more examples of teams misplaying the market

 

Basically every team other than the Cubs and the poor teams f***ed up at least once with an early signing. And the Cubs like to act poor anyway so they probably weren't even being smart

 

MIL spending their entire payroll on Hoskins

[connorp]

This is why my ignore list is so long. Most of them don’t even know Urshela is coming off a broken pelvis injury, surgery and recovery so it’s really easy to understand why a contending team wouldn’t want to roll that dice and why his market was so soft. Facts don’t matter though, just feelings and ignorant ramblings.

 

Connorp though isn’t that kind of fan though, he just likes to stir the pot a bit. Easy to recognize his trolls versus his actual opinions.

 

The constant bitch and moaners though, you’re right. Could present any hundred scenarios of the off-season and they’d whine and bitch about every single one even if the FO did exactly what the thought they should do because a signing came a few days after it should have, or the contract was signed in blue ink rather than black

 

While your assessments of me are usually correct and maybe I will stir the pot with IKF on occasion, I genuinely hated the signing. My dislike of limp noodle bats with only their defense as a a redeeming quality is documented. It’s understandable you can’t have all star bats everywhere, even on good teams, and you’ll have to find a guy on the cheap to fill that role even on good teams (or just do that internally)

 

You can’t really cry about the glass half empty crowd. Jays are a playoff team, they’re Canada’s only team, they have expectations like other playoff teams. They went into the playoffs limping on offense and they got booted the same way. They didn’t do anything to address it. Turner is a downgrade from Belt and is a high risk to bust at 39. IKF is a huge downgrade from last year offensively. Question Urshela is fine but at least there’s legit offensive upside there. Not to mention they doubled down on the OF scenario of committing to Varsho as a corner OF when his bat didn’t come close to playing there last year

 

Not only the IKF salary, but they have him two years, which was completely unnecessary. It may not prevent them from going after a big name next year, but it took up a spot for a legit upside flyer they may pass up next year and they committed for the next two years to downgrade their offense. So that’s the legit glass half empty

 

Now, you can do the glass half full thing and say there’s reason to believe some guys are going to bounce back. There’s merit to that but it’s not like it’s the only way one can think of they’re just stupid

[Spanky99]

Really? Why is a Jimenez untouchable if you need a 40 man spot?

 

Dude, you're asking me why our #7 overall spect would be Designated for Vogelbach or Votto, c'mon son.... you trippin'???

 

7. Leo Jimenez

SS

 

Ht: 5'10" | Wt: 215 | B-T: R-R

 

Age: null

 

BA Grade: 45/High

 

Track Record: Jimenez was considered one of the top players to come out of Panama in the last decade when he signed for $825,000 in 2017. He endured two injury-shortened seasons in 2021 and 2022, missing time with shoulder and hand injuries. Jimenez began 2023 with Double-A New Hampshire, making 76 starts for the Fisher Cats primarily at shortstop and hitting .287/.372/.436 with a 15.9% strikeout rate. He earned a promotion to Triple-A Buffalo in late August.

 

Scouting Report: Jimenez does not wow with loud tools or flashy play, but he’s an instinctual, disciplined ballplayer. He employs a simple swing with a direct path and average bat speed. He shows an ability to adjust his hands and make a high rate of contact. Jimenez rarely swings and misses in the strike zone and shows advanced swing decisions. He’s patient but not passive, regularly attacking strikes. Jimenez shows sneaky power, but it’s mostly in the form of line drives. He began to show the ability to pull the ball in the air without forcing it, hinting at untapped power. His underlying exit velocity data is above-average for his age, with a 88.5 mph average and a 90th percentile EV of 104.2. He’s a fringe-average runner capable of clocking an average run time on a hustle play down the line. He’s not a basestealing threat but has a quick first step and good infield instincts. He shows an average arm at shortstop, but his quick release and good internal clock allow him to make a majority of plays. Jimenez may end up at second base due to the limitations of his arm.

 

The Future: Jimenez is a solid all-around player who will likely break-in as a utilityman but should develop into a second-division regular over time.

 

Scouting Grades Hit: 55 | Power: 40 | Run: 45 | Field: 55 | Arm: 50

[John_Havok]

Dude, you're asking me why our #7 overall spect would be Designated for Vogelbach or Votto, c'mon son....

 

So…you just posted exactly why he profiles as Espinal-lite….and still don’t know why it’s not a big deal if he was lost?

 

DFA, trade, whatever, he’s not a guy to lose sleep over if he was moved, however it gets done.

[Spanky99]

So…you just posted exactly why he profiles as Espinal-lite….and still don’t know why it’s not a big deal if he was lost?

 

DFA, trade, whatever, he’s not a guy to lose sleep over if he was moved, however it gets done.

 

Okay. I strongly disagree... I mean who drops a top 10 spect, he's arguably a top 5 asset in our system at the moment, Pipeline has him @ 5...

 

Scouting grades: Hit: 55 | Power: 40 | Run: 50 | Arm: 55 | Field: 55 | Overall: 50

 

Signed out of Panama in 2017 for an $825,000 bonus, Jimenez has grown from a slick-fielding shortstop in the lower levels to a prospect with the talent to be something far more well-rounded. Jimenez started to grow into some modest power with High-A Vancouver in 2022, hitting six home runs with a .725 OPS and took another encouraging stride between Double-A and Triple-A this past year, tallying eight home runs while hitting .270 with a .767 OPS over a career-high 94 games.

 

Already on the 40-man roster at age 22 with the ability to play shortstop at the big league level, it’s not difficult to see Jimenez carving out an MLB career. The ceiling of that potential is what he’s changed in recent years, particularly after adding some muscle that hasn’t appeared to take away from his defense just yet. Jimenez is a mature defender with an excellent internal clock, which should translate well, and he’s just as comfortable sliding over to second base.

 

Jimenez doesn’t need to win any batting titles, but he shows promising bat-to-ball skills against pitches of all types, fueling the belief in a potential above-average bat. If he meets that hope and keeps his power at this level -- just enough to keep it on pitchers' minds -- he’s a big leaguer. The challenge of Triple-A pitching will be important for Jimenez, particularly given how much infield depth the Blue Jays are developing, but his defense at short could help him poke his head out from that crowd.

[John_Havok]

Okay. I strongly disagree... I mean who drops a top 10 spect, he's arguably a top 5 asset in our system at the moment, Pipeline has him @ 5...

 

Top 5 in the Jays system isn’t exactly huge praise in the totality of MLB at this point though, be honest. Using their own rankings, Orelvis which is the Jays #2 overall is ranked 89th overall.

 

Where would that put Jimenez….top…250-300?

[Spanky99]

Top 5 in the Jays system isn’t exactly huge praise in the totality of MLB at this point though, be honest. Using their own rankings, Orelvis which is the Jays #2 overall is ranked 89th overall.

 

Where would that put Jimenez….top…250-300?

 

John, you kick relievers to the curb on the 40, not a 22 year old in AAA, don't be silly.