General Blue Jays Discussion Thread (2023)

[Laika]

Thursday can’t come soon enough. Shapiro needs to fire both and start fresh.

 

what is on Thursday?

[Jonn]

what is on Thursday?

 

Shapiro is apparently addressing the media.

[Laika]

Shapiro is apparently addressing the media.

 

Oh, interesting.

[L54]

https://torontosun.com/sports/baseball/toronto-blue-jays/atkins-handling-of-manoah-created-some-frustration

 

“What to do about the fractured relationship between the front office and clubhouse, one that has coaches steaming about Atkins’ public hanging of manager John Schneider?“

 

 

Wow. Just wow.

 

It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to see the disconnect between the FO and the guys at field level. Get rid of Atkins and let the new guy decide on Schneider.

[wilko]

It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to see the disconnect between the FO and the guys at field level. Get rid of Atkins and let the new guy decide on Schneider.

 

It will be tough for Shapiro to axe Atkins, they have been ride or die since the Indians.

[Laika]

It will be tough for Shapiro to axe Atkins, they have been ride or die since the Indians.

 

The Shapiro / Jays MO would actually be to hire somebody else to take some of his responsibilities away. Keep Atkins but cut one of his nuts off.

[glory]

It will be tough for Shapiro to axe Atkins, they have been ride or die since the Indians.

 

I think Shapiro has two years left on his contract. Depending on how much he wants to stay, I think he’d have to put his relationships aside for the betterment of not only the franchise but also his own job security. If he’s ride or die with Atkins, then I wouldn’t mind him gone too. No way he can look at what happened on the field and see the disconnect between front office and coaching/players, and not do something.

[L54]

It will be tough for Shapiro to axe Atkins, they have been ride or die since the Indians.

 

Like Shaq and Kobe without the rings

[Stangstag]

I think Shapiro has two years left on his contract. Depending on how much he wants to stay, I think he’d have to put his relationships aside for the betterment of not only the franchise but also his own job security. If he’s ride or die with Atkins, then I wouldn’t mind him gone too. No way he can look at what happened on the field and see the disconnect between front office and coaching/players, and not do something.

 

Yup, this. Atkins needs to go. And if Shapiro won’t do it, then he needs to go too. The org shouldn’t have to suffer because of personal relationships taking priority over team success.

[deanmike]

https://torontosun.com/sports/baseball/toronto-blue-jays/atkins-handling-of-manoah-created-some-frustration

 

“What to do about the fractured relationship between the front office and clubhouse, one that has coaches steaming about Atkins’ public hanging of manager John Schneider?“

 

 

Wow. Just wow.

A lot of very interesting tidbits in this.

 

On so many levels, it will be an off-season of reparation for the Blue Jays — one that got off to a bumpy start with an ill-timed, poorly handled long-weekend press conference from general manager Ross Atkins.

 

What to do about the fractured relationship between the front office and clubhouse, one that has coaches steaming about Atkins’ public hanging of manager John Schneider?

 

What to do about an offence that can’t score timely runs?

 

What to do about Vlad Guerrero Jr.’s regression and maddening miscues, like the pickoff at second base, a play that isn’t getting enough attention for the Jays’ elimination?

 

And right up there with all the messes, how to make things right with the gone-but-shouldn’t-be-forgotten, former Cy Young Award finalist starting pitcher Alek Manoah?

 

While trying to paint a rosy picture that all will be fine with Manoah next season — just wait and see! — Atkins acknowledged that there were tense times with the big right hander, who was demoted twice during the season. In both instances — first to the Florida Complex League and later to the triple-A Buffalo Bisons — Manoah delayed reporting.

 

“Any time a pitcher of his success is optioned, it’s a very difficult thing to stomach and he disagreed with the decision,” Atkins said at his Thanksgiving weekend season-ending address. “So that created some frustration.”

 

We’ll see how the off-season plays out, but there certainly remains the potential of ill will and distrust to linger. Manoah has yet to speak publicly about his second demotion, an assignment that ended his season.

 

Not only were Manoah’s struggles a blow to his own development and a crashing of expectations associated with it, they exposed the Jays’ lack of starting depth. After being reduced to a four-man rotation for a month, Manoah was brought back from his stint at the Dunedin facility and, after one solid start, struggled anew. How did that work out?

 

“I wouldn’t say that we nailed that,” Atkins acknowledged about recalling Manoah in early July. “But we believed in him. It’s hard to say what would have occurred differently had we left him down. It was more (a case of) our staff and our team and me, how much we believed in him to be able to make those corrections here.”

 

That didn’t happen, of course, which led to the second demotion, this time to Buffalo.

 

And that’s when the troubled season turned bizarre and secretive by a team that’s becoming expert in the art.

 

Manoah balked at reporting, eventually showed up and then never threw a pitch for the Bisons. Late in the season, it was revealed that he had injections on his shoulder, a procedure Atkins distanced himself and the team from by saying Manoah initiated the procedure on his own.

 

“It was his decision,” Atkins said. “We supported him. He made the decision on his own to move in that direction There were no structural issues.”

 

It’s worth nothing that, publicly, Manoah hasn’t said a word since the second send down. He hasn’t responded when we’ve reached out for comment and, depending on what happens in the off-season, he will be among the top stories in what promises to be an eventful spring training around the club next February.

 

Atkins, meanwhile, paints a cheery picture of mended fences and dismissed any notion of discord by noting that Manoah has not asked for a trade.

 

“I’m excited for next year for Alek,” the GM said. “I think he’s extremely motivated. This year just got off to a rough start — we saw some signs of correcting, but we weren’t just able to get him to a position that he was one of our better alternatives for the rotation.

 

“He has been motivated to get back to form,” Atkins said. “I’ve seen him with his back to the wall in his career when he was an amateur and how he responded to that. I expect him to respond in a very powerful way in the course of the off season.”

 

There’s no doubt Manoah will be motivated — that’s how he is wired. But while his work on the mound is the priority, reparation of the relationship with the front office is also on the work docket.

 

So basically, this whole Manoah thing is a very messed up situation. Manoah is a piece of s*** for his massive ego thinking he's too good for the minors, to the point where he would rather get injections in his shoulder he doesn't even need instead of sucking it the f*** up going to the minors like a minor league bum such as himself should. I guess he must have thought the Bisons wouldn't tolerate him inhaling family size bags of Doritos in the Buffalo dugout, unlike beta cuck JS.

 

Atkins fully admitted they rushed Manoah back with the 2nd callup (which btw I seem to remember many Atkins bootlickers defending the decision, saying stuff along the lines of "I trust the FO wouldn't ignore what the information tells them and rush him back if he's not fully corrected"). Atkins saying he had faith in Manoah to correct himself in the majors is also some laughable ********, considering he never once showed that he was he was major league caliber starter on merit this season.

 

Something else that's hilarious to me about this, reading between the lines, is that Atkins basically handed JS a 5th starter he knew was still s*** to end the 4-man rotation, and JS comes out and tells the media before Manoah's 1 good start against the Tigers that he checked all the boxes he needed to before being brought back. The disconnect between Atkins and JS is f***ing unreal, and it makes Atkins' decision last offseason to remove the interim tag from JS instead of starting fresh with a manager that doesn't already have baggage with the org (2022 managerial decisions in the playoffs) even more of a joke.

 

Also glad the media is finally starting to call out what is really happening with the Vlad Sr obese son situation: regression. This lazy piece of s*** has regressed big time both offensively and especially defensively. He's a DH defensively who's bat is too s*** to more than an average DH at best. I was tired of seeing the Blake Murphy/Chris Black cucks of the world that love to spam talking points like how much he's underperforming his xwOBA to try and defend him for some reason.

[Laika]

I think Shapiro has two years left on his contract. Depending on how much he wants to stay, I think he’d have to put his relationships aside for the betterment of not only the franchise but also his own job security. If he’s ride or die with Atkins, then I wouldn’t mind him gone too. No way he can look at what happened on the field and see the disconnect between front office and coaching/players, and not do something.

 

We don't really know if Shapiro thinks his job is even in trouble.

 

The corporate overlords may not care whether or not the team can ever get over the hump. Consistent wild card "contention" is kind of good enough for TV ratings!

Edited October 11, 2023 by Laika

[wilko]

We don't really now if Shapiro thinks his job is even in trouble.

 

The corporate overlords may not care whether or not the team can ever get over the hump. Consistent wild card "contention" is kind of good enough for TV ratings!

 

I'm sure Shapiro's fine. He's here to put a facelift on the concrete jungle. He won't be gone until that's complete.

[BigCecil]

It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to see the disconnect between the FO and the guys at field level. Get rid of Atkins and let the new guy decide on Schneider.

 

Listened to David Samson on Blair and Barker pod this am. The 11 minute mark. FWIW his take was interesting. He was frank about it all.

 

He said the presser was "terrible" (not a news bulletin) and inferred that Atkins version of events was not accurate. He suggested the first question to Shapiro should be "who talked about the decision to remove Berrios and did they discuss how Ross would answer the questions last Saturday?"

[The Iceman]

For anyone who thinks Atkins spoke at his presser without running everything through Shapiro I think you are wrong.

 

Shapiro is the 100% full on puppet leader for the sorry gang below him.

[Terminator]

It is kind of interesting to see the Berrios fallout and who should be blamed. Atkins will often use a bunch of corporate speak to say nothing but he doesn't appear to be a liar to me.

 

And regardless, the Berrios decision had nothing to do with the team scoring a grand total of 1 run in 2 games or Vlad getting picked off of 2nd, both of which were bigger blunders IMO.

 

But if Schneider is doing this crazy s*** on his own accord he has more rope than most of us think and he should be shitcanned. His whacky playoff decisions (which apparently are more his doing than we think?) and the team's repeated baserunning errors aren't getting the job done.

[BigCecil]

I saw a funny tweet with a picture of a text message from Shapiro saying that he is going to blame Paul DeJong for the decision to pull Berrios at his presser.

[deanmike]

It is kind of interesting to see the Berrios fallout and who should be blamed. Atkins will often use a bunch of corporate speak to say nothing but he doesn't appear to be a liar to me.

 

And regardless, the Berrios decision had nothing to do with the team scoring a grand total of 1 run in 2 games or Vlad getting picked off of 2nd, both of which were bigger blunders IMO.

 

But if Schneider is doing this crazy s*** on his own accord he has more rope than most of us think and he should be shitcanned. His whacky playoff decisions (which apparently are more his doing than we think?) and the team's repeated baserunning errors aren't getting the job done.

Lmao at you taking what Atkins says at face value.

[wilko]

It is kind of interesting to see the Berrios fallout and who should be blamed. Atkins will often use a bunch of corporate speak to say nothing but he doesn't appear to be a liar to me.

 

And regardless, the Berrios decision had nothing to do with the team scoring a grand total of 1 run in 2 games or Vlad getting picked off of 2nd, both of which were bigger blunders IMO.

 

But if Schneider is doing this crazy s*** on his own accord he has more rope than most of us think and he should be shitcanned. His whacky playoff decisions (which apparently are more his doing than we think?) and the team's repeated baserunning errors aren't getting the job done.

 

I don't know if we'll ever get a full answer on the Berrios situation. Schneider alluded it was a decision made way before the game and hinted that it was not his call. Maybe we'll get more answers when the big dogg speaks tomorrow.

[Brownie19]

Lmao at you taking what Atkins says at face value.

 

To be fair, I'm not sure you're any better for taking what reporters are saying, or what's being "leaked" at face value either...

 

I don't think anyone should be overly confident on who to believe at this point.

[Terminator]

Lmao at you taking what Atkins says at face value.

 

Well I'm not but I think it was seen as Atkins is making almost 100 percent of the game decisions but I think it's safe to say that there is more leeway than we had thought. The alternative is that Atkins is 100 percent a liar and does in fact control all of these decisions which I suppose could be true but he doesn't appear to be a liar to me. He could have lied his way through the Bass situation but instead he told the truth about it which seemingly pissed off everybody.

 

Not sure Jeff Blair is more trustworthy than Atkins is either but go ahead and spoon feed yourself whatever a reporter like him feeds you.

[deanmike]

To be fair, I'm not sure you're any better for taking what reporters are saying, or what's being "leaked" at face value either...

 

I don't think anyone should be overly confident on who to believe at this point.

 

When the leaks I posted end up being right, I will dunk on you for this post. I tried to tell you all yyzsportsmedia is a legit source of info, if you choose to not believe me because you want to believe your boi Atkins is safe instead, that's on you.

[deanmike]

Well I'm not but I think it was seen as Atkins is making almost 100 percent of the game decisions but I think it's safe to say that there is more leeway than we had thought. The alternative is that Atkins is 100 percent a liar and does in fact control all of these decisions which I suppose could be true but he doesn't appear to be a liar to me. He could have lied his way through the Bass situation but instead he told the truth about it which seemingly pissed off everybody.

 

Not sure Jeff Blair is more trustworthy than Atkins is either but go ahead and spoon feed yourself whatever a reporter like him feeds you.

 

How about you be creative and actually come up with an alternative theory like I asked for in the other thread?

 

Here I'll give you one, maybe the leak came from the inner circle of someone who's competing with Click for the Mets' GM opening and wants that rumour to be out there for Cohen to see.

[Brownie19]

When the leaks I posted end up being right, I will dunk on you for this post. I tried to tell you all yyzsportsmedia is a legit source of info, if you choose to not believe me because you want to believe your boi Atkins is safe instead, that's on you.

 

Oh no. Some random guy I don't know is going to "dunk on me" because I'm going to take some time and wait for more information to become available before forming an opinion on a matter. Whatever will I do?

[Terminator]

How about you be creative and actually come up with an alternative theory like I asked for in the other thread?

 

Here I'll give you one, maybe the leak came from someone in the inner circle of someone who's competing with Click for the Mets' GM opening and wants that rumour to be out there for Cohen to see.

 

Sorry I don't keep track of all of your requests.

 

I did post a couple of theories though! One is that Atkins himself leaked it to get the casuals who want Click to be GM off of his back. The other theory I posted was that Jeff Blair is full of s*** and is chasing clicks.

 

I like your theory about rival GM candidates for the Mets leaking it, that's a great one. Let's see if we can come up with some more, Dean.

 

[Terminator]

Maybe Shapiro leaked it because he has a fake twitter account and he was tired of seeing all of the calls for him to replace Shapiro with Click?

 

Or check this one out, Dean. Maybe Tony Lacava wants another crack at the GM job so he leaked it to take out the #2 in Click so LaCava is next in line again. Kind of like Game of Thrones or Succession, but the baseball version.

 

You got any others, Dean?

 

[Captain_Obvious]

I don't know if we'll ever get a full answer on the Berrios situation. Schneider alluded it was a decision made way before the game and hinted that it was not his call. Maybe we'll get more answers when the big dogg speaks tomorrow.

 

If I had to guess I think it was an issue of Schneider being dumb. What likely happened was Atkins and his analytics department provided Schneider with a report saying Berrios numbers drop second time through the order or something like that. Schneider interpreted that as "Berrios must be switched before going second time through the order".

[deanmike]

Sorry I don't keep track of all of your requests.

 

I did post a couple of theories though! One is that Atkins himself leaked it to get the casuals who want Click to be GM off of his back. The other theory I posted was that Jeff Blair is full of s*** and is chasing clicks.

 

I like your theory about rival GM candidates for the Mets leaking it, that's a great one. Let's see if we can come up with some more, Dean.

 

 

Lmao at viewing wanting a GM upgrade on Atkins as a casual take.

 

Considering Click is in the running for the Mets opening, it would be risky of Blair to make an enemy of a World Series winning GM like Click by spewing falsities about him for clicks (unless he's retiring soon and doesn't give a f*** about what bridges he burns).

[deanmike]

Maybe Shapiro leaked it because he has a fake twitter account and he was tired of seeing all of the calls for him to replace Shapiro with Click?

 

Or check this one out, Dean. Maybe Tony Lacava wants another crack at the GM job so he leaked it to take out the #2 in Click so LaCava is next in line again. Kind of like Game of Thrones or Succession, but the baseball version.

You got any others, Dean?

 

 

This is the kind of creativity I wanted to see Sherminator !!

[L54]

Listened to David Samson on Blair and Barker pod this am. The 11 minute mark. FWIW his take was interesting. He was frank about it all.

 

He said the presser was "terrible" (not a news bulletin) and inferred that Atkins version of events was not accurate. He suggested the first question to Shapiro should be "who talked about the decision to remove Berrios and did they discuss how Ross would answer the questions last Saturday?"

 

Nice I will definitely give this a listen

[Omar]

We don't really know if Shapiro thinks his job is even in trouble.

 

The corporate overlords may not care whether or not the team can ever get over the hump. Consistent wild card "contention" is kind of good enough for TV ratings!

 

If the P/L looks good Shapiro is golden. I honestly don't think Rogers is overly concerned with this team winning a championship. A half decent on field product is all that they ask to keep the turnstiles moving on Blue Jays Way.