General Blue Jays Discussion Thread (2023)

[Spanky99]

There's probably multiple points of failure that led to this team where it is.

 

I don't blame faulty roster construction as much. The front office set out to improve pitching and defense and were incredibly successful in that. Other than that, how could the front office have possibly predicted that a team with a high-contact rate and that hits the ball as hard as they do would be the 2nd worst slugging team on middle middle fastballs? No model or traditional scouting would be able to predict that. They literally ran into the top percentile outcome for underperformance for so many position players + bad luck with RISP.

 

The more interesting question is why are these things happening. Is it coaching? Yeah, maybe. But presumably, the same hitting coaches/game-planning/strategy were responsible for literally the best run-scoring team the last two years, so why adjust how you approach gameplans and analytics when there's a long sample size of things clearly working?

 

It's honestly one of the more baffling baseball seasons I've ever experienced. So many unexplainable things that go against reasonable thinking + a touch of bad luck that I find it hard to fault any single individual or department. I expect we will see some changes because it's a results driven business, but it's so hard to logically describe what went wrong this season.

 

Thank you, Ray.

[Spanky99]

I do reckon this falls on the players (mostly position players) for simply not rising to the occasion too many times. Too many poor approaches at the plate, questionable fitness and attitudes especially from those who are supposed to be the stars, and frankly a lack of any sort of identity. Analogous to the Maple Leafs' struggles to do anything in the playoffs. Something seems rotten in the clubhouse in terms of team culture.

 

This is silly.

[thatoneguy]

This is silly.

 

I mean, look at Vlad and Manoah and tell me there's not a problem there attitude wise.

[Spanky99]

Chapman on a long term FA deal in his 30's is disgusting. Let someone else live with that. Offer the QO and if he takes it then great. If not then you take the pick and move on.

 

Teoscar would fit the team needs perfectly, and we know he'd energize the clubhouse, but curious to see what type of contract he could get. The FA market doesn't look that great, and he's had a great 2nd half of the season. I could see him getting a 3+ year deal somewhere. If he's looking for a pillow contract then the Jays should be all over it.

 

Teo's end of season results won't help him, he sits at 111 wRC+ last I checked but he's having a nice 2nd half, cooling down recently.

[Laika]

The sport is far too technical nowadays to just draft or sign players and take your hands off the wheel. Even a prodigy like Vlad gets smoked by 40 FVs because they are in orgs with super duper magic dust data that tell them where and what to throw.

 

I'm become more and more convinced that players are becoming increasing less valuable in terms of actual talent level and more valuable based on how they can just digest and execute what orgs tell them.

 

The job of a GM now is not just to draft and acquire guys with tools. He has to establish processes and put coaches in place that tell these players precisely what to do at all times like complete robots. And I don't think we do that at all.

 

Yeah

 

Even if you present the correct information it won't have any effect if you:

 

- have players who won't absorb or use it

- don't have middle-men who can effectively communicate/translate it

 

Several years ago the Rays took some f***ing nobody math nerd from their front office and put him in cleats for just this reason. It seems to have worked because he's still there.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Erlichman

 

BTW, this guy is probably still with the Blue Jays if AA's regime wasn't so f***ing dumb and ass-backwards back when he was poached by Tampa.

[Spanky99]

I mean, look at Vlad and Manoah and tell me there's not a problem there attitude wise.

 

Not sure at all about Vlad, kid keeps telling people he's not happy about his scuffling this season, who would as a guy with his talent and past success. Thing is he has had success. Manoah, is falling out on the team, very different. Like a primadonna, but we really haven't heard s*** yet from his camp, just that he's jogging in Buffalo.

Edited September 15, 2023 by Spanky99

[Spanky99]

Yeah

 

Even if you present the correct information it won't have any effect if you:

 

- have players who won't absorb or use it

- don't have middle-men who can effectively communicate/translate it

 

Several years ago the Rays took some f***ing nobody math nerd from their front office and put him in cleats for just this reason. It seems to have worked because he's still there.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Erlichman

 

BTW, this guy is probably still with the Blue Jays if AA's regime wasn't so f***ing dumb and ass-backwards back when he was poached by Tampa.

 

lol... classic.

[Laika]

You kind of HAVE to let Shapiro and Atkins have more run at this

 

The org shed a lot of institutional knowledge and talent when AA was here and then when there was the regime change to Shatkins...

 

I bet the Canadian math nerds hired into the analytics dept under Shapiro are at least still here and happy. They probably feel heard and valuable.

 

Front offices are so deep and complex these days. You can't just hire entire departments. It takes years and years (a generation?) to build a high end analytics dept or whatever.

[Stangstag]

Not sure at all about Vlad, kid keeps telling people he's not happy about his scuffling this season, who would as a guy with his talent and past success. Thing is he has had success. Manoah, is falling out on the team, very different. Like a pre-madonna, but we really haven't heard s*** yet from his camp, just that he's jogging in Buffalo.

 

Pre-madonna lol Spanky dfkm

[Spanky99]

Pre-madonna lol Spanky dfkm

 

My bad, lol

 

I'm high man.

 

Oh man... I'm dying laughing.

 

Still hard...

[Krylian]

Shaddup eeyore!

 

Suck a cock!

[Carlos Danger]

You kind of HAVE to let Shapiro and Atkins have more run at this

 

The org shed a lot of institutional knowledge and talent when AA was here and then when there was the regime change to Shatkins...

 

I bet the Canadian math nerds hired into the analytics dept under Shapiro are at least still here and happy. They probably feel heard and valuable.

 

Front offices are so deep and complex these days. You can't just hire entire departments. It takes years and years (a generation?) to build a high end analytics dept or whatever.

 

When do you stop moving the goal posts?

 

Shapiro came on board in 2015, he was part of the fall and winter FO that year.

 

Almost eight years and only playoffs wins were in 2016 with the core of AA's team. Unless something great happens in the next few weeks/month.

 

The goal of a team is to win the WS. I really liked the offseason moves this year and was a supporter.

 

However, it is a results based business or should be. When do you hold the FO accountable for results?

[Spanky99]

Wow... the O'Dawg mimicked from OverDrive my words... *players are never out in front of the camera, except the SP and Manager? How many cliches can you land, I feel bad for him, his players aren't executing.*

 

He's a hockey player we have that in common.

[Laika]

When do you stop moving the goal posts?

 

Shapiro came on board in 2015, he was part of the fall and winter FO that year.

 

Almost eight years and only playoffs wins were in 2016 with the core of AA's team. Unless something great happens in the next few weeks/month.

 

The goal of a team is to win the WS. I really liked the offseason moves this year and was a supporter.

 

However, it is a results based business or should be. When do you hold the FO accountable for results?

 

At the end of the day we don't know enough about the process to make a decision

 

I liked the offseason moves too. The Jays have projected well the last few years.

 

Since I am not a moron, it's hard for me to get behind going scorched earth when so much of the failures the last few years just smell completely random. Like the crushing playoff losses, a lot of this is just random. Being the worst team in baseball on middle middle fastballs and with RISP for most of the year - I have trouble not attributing most of that to randomness. I dunno.

 

What the YANKEES have done this year is a complete and total failure in team construction. For Toronto, it's not as obvious.

[Spanky99]

Suck a cock!

 

Oi! Suck a fart?

[Spanky99]

When do you stop moving the goal posts?

 

Shapiro came on board in 2015, he was part of the fall and winter FO that year.

 

Almost eight years and only playoffs wins were in 2016 with the core of AA's team. Unless something great happens in the next few weeks/month.

 

The goal of a team is to win the WS. I really liked the offseason moves this year and was a supporter.

 

However, it is a results based business or should be. When do you hold the FO accountable for results?

 

They were left barren and with nothing to sell in a Rogers win market, their hands were tied.

[Olerud363]

 

The more interesting question is why are these things happening. Is it coaching? Yeah, maybe. But presumably, the same hitting coaches/game-planning/strategy were responsible for literally the best run-scoring team the last two years, so why adjust how you approach gameplans and analytics when there's a long sample size of things clearly working?

 

It's honestly one of the more baffling baseball seasons I've ever experienced. So many unexplainable things that go against reasonable thinking + a touch of bad luck that I find it hard to fault any single individual or department. I expect we will see some changes because it's a results driven business, but it's so hard to logically describe what went wrong this season.

 

Don't forget Covid happened. Teams were likely way behind on their advance scouting, game planning, and super-magic-fairy dusting. So in 2020 and most of 2021 teams were focused on navigating Covid, getting up and running again, getting the fans back, getting through the season with 1/2 the team testing positive at once... hell maybe the advance scouts couldn't even get into the ballpark, the announcers couldn't a lot of times.

 

Then 2022 all this is up and running again, and even more so in 2023.

[Spanky99]

Don't forget Covid happened. Teams were likely way behind on their advance scouting, game planning, and super-magic-fairy dusting. So in 2020 and most of 2021 teams were focused on navigating Covid, getting up and running again, getting the fans back, getting through the season with 1/2 the team testing positive at once... hell maybe the advance scouts couldn't even get into the ballpark, the announcers couldn't a lot of times.

 

Then 2022 all this is up and running again, and even more so in 2023.

 

Tinfoil hat Olerud I get it, mate. Breathe, mate.

[Olerud363]

The sport is far too technical nowadays to just draft or sign players and take your hands off the wheel. Even a prodigy like Vlad gets smoked by 40 FVs because they are in orgs with super duper magic dust data that tell them where and what to throw.

 

I'm become more and more convinced that players are becoming increasing less valuable in terms of actual talent level and more valuable based on how they can just digest and execute what orgs tell them.

 

The job of a GM now is not just to draft and acquire guys with tools. He has to establish processes and put coaches in place that tell these players precisely what to do at all times like complete robots. And I don't think we do that at all.

 

It will be really interesting to follow Spencer Horwitz next year. International league is psycho this year, but kid did what you should do in a pyscho league. 143 wRC+ and numbers comparable to what Overbay did in the PCL.

 

Is this kid (and others) digesting all the new info? Will it translate to the majors?

[Spanky99]

The sport is far too technical nowadays to just draft or sign players and take your hands off the wheel. Even a prodigy like Vlad gets smoked by 40 FVs because they are in orgs with super duper magic dust data that tell them where and what to throw.

 

I'm become more and more convinced that players are becoming increasing less valuable in terms of actual talent level and more valuable based on how they can just digest and execute what orgs tell them.

 

The job of a GM now is not just to draft and acquire guys with tools. He has to establish processes and put coaches in place that tell these players precisely what to do at all times like complete robots. And I don't think we do that at all.

 

Interesting.

 

Just speculation, though.

[Spanky99]

Barker's ripping JS, VGJ... lmao

 

Rekt!!!

 

Oh man; you folks need to listen to this fun.

[Ray]

The sport is far too technical nowadays to just draft or sign players and take your hands off the wheel. Even a prodigy like Vlad gets smoked by 40 FVs because they are in orgs with super duper magic dust data that tell them where and what to throw.

 

I'm become more and more convinced that players are becoming increasing less valuable in terms of actual talent level and more valuable based on how they can just digest and execute what orgs tell them.

 

The job of a GM now is not just to draft and acquire guys with tools. He has to establish processes and put coaches in place that tell these players precisely what to do at all times like complete robots. And I don't think we do that at all.

 

Tampa is the ultimate proof of this. Time and time again, they get players on other teams that absolutely nobody is even thinking about acquiring and turn them into valuable contributors. For example: Did you know 36 year old Jake McGee has a 2.50 ERA with them this season? Clearly they're identifying the right changes that need to be made for each player and then successfully communicating that to that player. But it's a super delicate pipeline. You could have the right information and wrong relayer, or vice versa and it just wouldn't work. Which is why it's hard to replicate even if you know to do it.

 

The super puzzling thing with the Jays hitting process is that it was paying dividends with this same core of players for the past 2 years (#1 in OPS in 2021, #2 in OPS in 2022). Like clearly something was working there. So what the hell happened in such a short period of time that things changed so drastically? Honestly for the life of me cannot figure it out, and nobody will know until there's some expose that comes out on what they were doing internally this year.

[connorp]

Tampa is the ultimate proof of this. Time and time again, they get players on other teams that absolutely nobody is even thinking about acquiring and turn them into valuable contributors. For example: Did you know 36 year old Jake McGee has a 2.50 ERA with them this season? Clearly they're identifying the right changes that need to be made for each player and then successfully communicating that to that player. But it's a super delicate pipeline. You could have the right information and wrong relayer, or vice versa and it just wouldn't work. Which is why it's hard to replicate even if you know to do it.

 

The super puzzling thing with the Jays hitting process is that it was paying dividends with this same core of players for the past 2 years (#1 in OPS in 2021, #2 in OPS in 2022). Like clearly something was working there. So what the hell happened in such a short period of time that things changed so drastically? Honestly for the life of me cannot figure it out, and nobody will know until there's some expose that comes out on what they were doing internally this year.

 

Scouting, drafting, and developing players will always be an inexact science. Tampa’s success rate with prospects isn’t going to be much different than other orgs. Their success is more about using data to determine how to use people best.

Edited September 16, 2023 by connorp

[jaysblue]

You kind of HAVE to let Shapiro and Atkins have more run at this

 

The org shed a lot of institutional knowledge and talent when AA was here and then when there was the regime change to Shatkins...

 

I bet the Canadian math nerds hired into the analytics dept under Shapiro are at least still here and happy. They probably feel heard and valuable.

 

Front offices are so deep and complex these days. You can't just hire entire departments. It takes years and years (a generation?) to build a high end analytics dept or whatever.

 

Keep flip flopping and moving the goal posts lol. You're too much man when it comes to defending this front office.

 

Probably only one more year in 2024 with Atkins and Shapiro. If they disappoint in 2024, you need to make a change.

[jaysblue]

Barker's ripping JS, VGJ... lmao

 

Rekt!!!

 

Oh man; you folks need to listen to this fun.

 

Was very entertaining. Glad finally a SN personality was ripping into this team.

[John_Havok]

Was very entertaining. Glad finally a SN personality was ripping into this team.

 

They're just a sideshow.

[jaysblue]

They were left barren and with nothing to sell in a Rogers win market, their hands were tied.

 

They failed to sell Donaldson at the height of his trade value.

[Spanky99]

They failed to sell Donaldson at the height of his trade value.

 

When he got injured? For like the season?

[Krylian]

When he got injured? For like the season?

 

No. After 2016 when many thought the Jays window had closed.

[Terminator]

Mon: The playoffs will be easy to make

Tues: The playoffs might not be easy to make

Wed: We better win tomorrow or the playoffs won't be easy to make

Thurs: The season is officially over

Fri: The playoffs might just be easy to make after all