General Blue Jays Discussion Thread (2023)

[jaysblue]

No way man the team should have overpaid Kyle Gibson and given him an offer he couldn't refuse so he signed with the Jays instead of the Orioles. After all his FIP is better than Bassitt's right now so who gives a f*** about all of Bassitt's other performance indicators being better.

 

Talk about someone with thin skin haha.

[max silver]

Lol you guys have thin skin.

 

I'm pretty much treated like a troll according to you guys if I question anything about this front office. Your responses are very condescending which is why I can't debate or have discussion with you, Brownie and Metafour.

 

I disagree with a lot of other posters on here regarding some things, but at least they're not condescending as you three. Spanky, Hurl, Terminator, L54, Laika, BTS, etc. They actually have discussions and aren't condescending at all even if we disagree on something.

 

You could attempt to stop with the constant name calling and see how that turns out for you. You are constantly in attack mode every time a poster disagrees with you, and this sort of behavior is exactly what is leading you into a steady series of arguments instead of reasonable discussion. Stop acting like a troll with the baiting posts and you won't be treated like a troll, it really shouldn't be rocket science.

[jaysblue]

You could attempt to stop with the constant name calling and see how that turns out for you. You are constantly in attack mode every time a poster disagrees with you, and this sort of behavior is exactly what is leading you into a steady series of arguments instead of reasonable discussion. Stop acting like a troll with the baiting posts and you won't be treated like a troll, it really shouldn't be rocket science.

 

You just perfectly described yourself, Brownie and Metafour! You three are the most condescending posters on this board.

 

Regardless, I'm done arguing with you three about the front office. I don't want to read your essays where you all three try to defend and justify the FO on signing Tapia and Zimmer. It's too much!

[jaysblue]

No way man the team should have overpaid Kyle Gibson and given him an offer he couldn't refuse so he signed with the Jays instead of the Orioles. After all his FIP is better than Bassitt's right now so who gives a f*** about all of Bassitt's other performance indicators being better.

 

All I said back in June/July was the Gibson signing by the Orioles was pretty good considering his performance at that time and given it was only a 1-year contract at $10M so very little risk and the Orioles didn't have to sign a similar arm to 3 years around $60M like the Jays did with Bassitt.

 

As for Bassitt, Jays had to slightly overpay for a 34-35 year old starter at 20M per season. Never said anything bad about Bassitt's performance. He's been great for them this season. I remember I suggested the Jays make a trade for Arenado, and some responses were like "The Jays can't take on his payroll in 2024 and 2025." So yeah Bassitt at $20M does take up a chunk of the payroll if we're worried about the Jays being close to their payroll threshold where they can't add another top player. Hopefully he continues to pitch well in Year 2 and 3 of his contract.

[max silver]

You just perfectly described yourself, Brownie and Metafour! You three are the most condescending posters on this board.

 

Regardless, I'm done arguing with you three about the front office. I don't want to read your essays where you all three try to defend and justify the FO on signing Tapia and Zimmer. It's too much!

 

That's more than enough of the victim routine man as it's an obvious facade. You should go back an reread your recent posts, you are initiating all of the bad blood with the name calling and condescending nature while trying to portray yourself as an innocent victim. Take a look in the mirror, you are the poster who is bringing down the discussion with the bad behaviour in his posts. If you keep initiating drama of this nature it's going to keep coming back at you, take even a tiny shot at not starting fights with other posters and you won't keep finding yourself in these fights.

[connorp]

That's more than enough of the victim routine man as it's an obvious facade. You should go back an reread your recent posts, you are initiating all of the bad blood with the name calling and condescending nature while trying to portray yourself as an innocent victim. Take a look in the mirror, you are the poster who is bringing down the discussion with the bad behaviour in his posts. If you keep initiating drama of this nature it's going to keep coming back at you, take even a tiny shot at not starting fights with other posters and you won't keep finding yourself in these fights.

 

You’re the latest incarnation of Jim. Passive aggressive posts and then plays victim when someone takes the conversation sideways.

[Jonn]

Gausman was not an overpay

 

Kikuchi looks like a nice contract now, haha

 

The Kikuchi contracts looks like an absolute steal now. Crazy how things change.

 

I felt the Gausman contract was always right. He didn't have the long track record of success but he had turned into a completely different pitcher that he had been previously in his career. All his underlying stats suggested he would be this level of pitcher when the Jays signed him.

[max silver]

All I said back in June/July was the Gibson signing by the Orioles was pretty good considering his performance at that time and given it was only a 1-year contract at $10M so very little risk and the Orioles didn't have to sign a similar arm to 3 years around $60M like the Jays did with Bassitt.

 

As for Bassitt, Jays had to slightly overpay for a 34-35 year old starter at 20M per season. Never said anything bad about Bassitt's performance. He's been great for them this season. I remember I suggested the Jays make a trade for Arenado, and some responses were like "The Jays can't take on his payroll in 2024 and 2025." So yeah Bassitt at $20M does take up a chunk of the payroll if we're worried about the Jays being close to their payroll threshold where they can't add another top player. Hopefully he continues to pitch well in Year 2 and 3 of his contract.

 

I think there should be plenty of payroll space to add another quality player, but I'm not sure whether Arenado is the player they'd want to tie up this available payroll space. I worry a bit about him being squarely in the middle of his decline phase as he's having a pretty mediocre season compared to his typical standards. Aside from his stellar 2022 season his last 4 years have shown a player who is slowing down tremendously with the bat and really isn't someone I'd be comfortable with paying $30 million for another 4 seasons after this one.

[max silver]

You’re the latest incarnation of Jim. Passive aggressive posts and then plays victim when someone takes the conversation sideways.

 

There's nothing passive in that post dummy, go back to your corner where you belong.

[jaysblue]

I think there should be plenty of payroll space to add another quality player, but I'm not sure whether Arenado is the player they'd want to tie up this available payroll space. I worry a bit about him being squarely in the middle of his decline phase as he's having a pretty mediocre season compared to his typical standards. Aside from his stellar 2022 season his last 4 years have shown a player who is slowing down tremendously with the bat and really isn't someone I'd be comfortable with paying $30 million for another 4 seasons after this one.

 

I hope payroll space isn't an issue in 2024 and 2025. Need to make the most of those seasons especially with Bo under control and Gausman still at the top of his game etc.

 

Yeah Arenado was just an idea if the Jays were looking at the trade route for a 3B in the offseason. His contract I don't think is too bad but now I think they could probably fill the 3B position for a more reasonable cost, whether its someone from within or signing a guy like JD to platoon with Barger etc. We'll see what happens.

 

Also wonder what Chapman signs for now? He was in line for a big payday but his bat has been disappointing. Wonder if he signs a 1 year deal worth $20M just to rebuild value.

[jaysblue]

That's more than enough of the victim routine man as it's an obvious facade. You should go back an reread your recent posts, you are initiating all of the bad blood with the name calling and condescending nature while trying to portray yourself as an innocent victim. Take a look in the mirror, you are the poster who is bringing down the discussion with the bad behaviour in his posts. If you keep initiating drama of this nature it's going to keep coming back at you, take even a tiny shot at not starting fights with other posters and you won't keep finding yourself in these fights.

 

I really hate this bickering back and forth. You and Brownie seem like reasonable and nice guys who are positive contributors to this board. We'll always agree to disagree on some aspects of Atkins and this front office.

 

This season has been very frustrating given what we've seen from this team. We all know they could be playing much better.

 

At the end of the day, we're both cheering for this team to succeed and win a World Series. We can all agree on that. Hope we get into the Postseason and go on a deep run. No hard feelings. Cheers guys!

[Omar]

I was literally screaming at my TV over that at the time. If there was ever a time for JBJ over Tapia that was it. Zimmer wasn’t on that P.O roster if I recall correctly?

 

We were all dying inside watching everything unfold and powerless to stop it. A little part of all of us died that day.

 

Schneider after the game: Now I am become death, the destroyer of worlds.

[Brownie19]

The issue with you and some of the other members in your homer brigade is that you treat prominent posters who actually make rational criticisms about this team or FO as idiots or morons. Like if I say anything negative or even question anything, you and your brigade come out and attack like cockroaches. It's insufferable man. You treat me and some others like we're trolls who only say negative things about this team which isn't true.

 

 

I don't treat prominent posters who make rational criticism about this team or FO as idiots or morons. I treat you like you're an idiot and a moron

 

OK that was too easy...

[max silver]

I really hate this bickering back and forth. You and Brownie seem like reasonable and nice guys who are positive contributors to this board. We'll always agree to disagree on some aspects of Atkins and this front office.

 

This season has been very frustrating given what we've seen from this team. We all know they could be playing much better.

 

At the end of the day, we're both cheering for this team to succeed and win a World Series. We can all agree on that. Hope we get into the Postseason and go on a deep run. No hard feelings. Cheers guys!

 

Cheers dude, we are definitely at each others throats a lot this season with the frustrations this offense has put us through. I have no hard feelings either as I'm just here to share my opinions on a message board like everyone else. Here's to hoping the team continues to put up a bunch of runs for the rest of the season and makes the way into the playoffs on a high note.

[Brownie19]

All I said back in June/July was the Gibson signing by the Orioles was pretty good considering his performance at that time and given it was only a 1-year contract at $10M so very little risk and the Orioles didn't have to sign a similar arm to 3 years around $60M like the Jays did with Bassitt.

 

As for Bassitt, Jays had to slightly overpay for a 34-35 year old starter at 20M per season. Never said anything bad about Bassitt's performance. He's been great for them this season. I remember I suggested the Jays make a trade for Arenado, and some responses were like "The Jays can't take on his payroll in 2024 and 2025." So yeah Bassitt at $20M does take up a chunk of the payroll if we're worried about the Jays being close to their payroll threshold where they can't add another top player. Hopefully he continues to pitch well in Year 2 and 3 of his contract.

 

I generally agree with this; however, the issue is the likelihood of Gibson being a consistent workhorse this year was MUCH lower than it was for Bassitt and I suspect the FO looked at guys like Kikucci, Berrios and Ryu (and our lack of quality depth in the upper minors) and said - f*** that - we can't afford to take this risk - we need to go with someone who our evaluators believe is more of a sure thing because there's too much variance in the rotation currently...

[jaysblue]

Cheers dude, we are definitely at each others throats a lot this season with the frustrations this offense has put us through. I have no hard feelings either as I'm just here to share my opinions on a message board like everyone else. Here's to hoping the team continues to put up a bunch of runs for the rest of the season and makes the way into the playoffs on a high note.

 

If you're ever downtown during the Postseason, a round of beers on me!

[jaysblue]

I generally agree with this; however, the issue is the likelihood of Gibson being a consistent workhorse this year was MUCH lower than it was for Bassitt and I suspect the FO looked at guys like Kikucci, Berrios and Ryu (and our lack of quality depth in the upper minors) and said - f*** that - we can't afford to take this risk - we need to go with someone who our evaluators believe is more of a sure thing because there's too much variance in the rotation currently...

 

Yup those are valid points. Gibson definitely did come with more risk and we've seen him implode lately. I understand having to pay Bassitt more in terms of salary and years, but his innings and durability have been really valuable and needed. Also, Berrios and Kikuchi like you said were question marks at the time. Definitely glad they've had the season they've had given Manoah turning into Josh Towers out there.

 

I just hope Bassitt's 20M salary in 2024 and 2025 doesn't tie the hands of the front office if they need to add another big player during the offseason.

[Brownie19]

Again, Atkins has done a real solid job while he's been here. Not debating that. I've even said if the Jays miss the Postseason in 2023, he should be given another crack at it in 2024. Has he been exceptional? You can argue given the results to this point, expectations have not been met and he hasn't taken this team to the next level. Those are the facts lol. And obviously with that being the case, there are some areas he could be criticized on, as with every GM and front office in the league.

.

 

This seems to be the disconnect and source of our discussions. I lean against judging a FO strictly by the results. They make decisions based off projected performances and each comes with a probability of different results (let's call them way beyond expectations, at expectations and way below expectations for simplification). There are SO many variables that can affect the results - most of which are outside of the FO's control.

 

I'm not going to s*** on the FO for the underperformances by Vlad, Manoah, Kirk, Varsho, Chapman, Espi, Cimber, etc., just as I'm not going to praise them for the unlikely emergence of Davis Schneider, Genesis, Clement, etc. There's a ton of luck and variables involved in all of those results. I think it's unreasonable to blame the FO for the failures of so many key/core players and the resulting win-loss record. Blame the players themselves.

 

That said, I will praise them for adding and maintaining depth at the upper minors and on the ML roster this year. They've added several bodies and put themselves in a position to strike gold with certain guys at the most opportune time, which has kept us in the playoff race, despite so many of our core guys s***ing the bed. Will it continue? Maybe, maybe not.

 

I think far too many people like to blame 1 entity directly, when the reality is there's all kinds of variables at play (including luck) and the blame should be shared by several. I do get my back up when people start blaming 1 entity (FO, manager, hitting coach, etc.) with firm opinions that they are obviously to blame - because I think that's really stupid. That said, I also understand it's human nature to want to narrow it down and blame 1 person for the results of an entire team (I just wish it wasn't).

[max silver]

I hope payroll space isn't an issue in 2024 and 2025. Need to make the most of those seasons especially with Bo under control and Gausman still at the top of his game etc.

 

Yeah Arenado was just an idea if the Jays were looking at the trade route for a 3B in the offseason. His contract I don't think is too bad but now I think they could probably fill the 3B position for a more reasonable cost, whether its someone from within or signing a guy like JD to platoon with Barger etc. We'll see what happens.

 

Also wonder what Chapman signs for now? He was in line for a big payday but his bat has been disappointing. Wonder if he signs a 1 year deal worth $20M just to rebuild value.

 

Chapman has gone from a guy who looked like he was playing himself into a Boegarts level mega contract into a guy who the Jays might be able to afford. I just question whether retaining him would be a wise choice given how much he's struggled at the plate for 3/5 of the season. On a 1 year pillow deal I'd love to see the team go that route as this front office has a great track record on deals like this, but I still expect someone will be able to offer Chapman a massive 4 or 5 year deal despite how uneven his season has been.

[John_Havok]

Chapman has gone from a guy who looked like he was playing himself into a Boegarts level mega contract into a guy who the Jays might be able to afford. I just question whether retaining him would be a wise choice given how much he's struggled at the plate for 3/5 of the season. On a 1 year pillow deal I'd love to see the team go that route as this front office has a great track record on deals like this, but I still expect someone will be able to offer Chapman a massive 4 or 5 year deal despite how uneven his season has been.

 

Give him a QO?

[Brownie19]

Give him a QO?

 

yes.

[max silver]

Give him a QO?

 

Absolutely. I see little chance he'd accept it as he's a Boras client but if he's willing to take a qualifying offer it's a good outcome for the team.

[John_Havok]

Absolutely. I see little chance he'd accept it as he's a Boras client but if he's willing to take a qualifying offer it's a good outcome for the team.

 

According to Rosenthlal, Chapman turned down 10 years/150 million after the 2019 season which, at the time would have covered 4 years of team control and 6 FA years. That takes a bit of balls for sure.

[max silver]

According to Rosenthlal, Chapman turned down 10 years/150 million after the 2019 season which, at the time would have covered 4 years of team control and 6 FA years. That takes a bit of balls for sure.

 

That was a smart decision on his part as who would want to be stuck in Oakland on a team friendly deal. That organization shows zero loyalty to their fans or players so I sure as hell wouldn't have done the opposite.

[BigCecil]

Give him a QO?

 

For Chappy. Yes. 100%

[Laika]

I would give him the QO as well.

 

In a stronger FA class, if he was the #3 ranked 3B and there were a couple big SS out there, he might even accept the QO. But this offseason there is nobody in his class on the infield that I can see. These are the top IF free agents:

 

2B: Whit Merrifield

Adam Frazier, Tony Kemp, Kolten Wong ------ lmao

3B: Chapman, Candelario

Brian Anderson, Longo, Eduardo Escobar, Donaldson, Urshela, Moustakas

SS: Amed Rosario, IKF, Tim Anderson, Andrus

 

The only player in that mix who probably projects for 3+ WAR is Chapman. What a wasteland.

 

The two best players in there might be outgoing Blue Jays, actually.

 

Assuming Muncy, Polanco, Turner don't hit FA.

[Terminator]

Santiago Espinal is slashing .274/.342/.375 since April 17th.

 

Cavan Biggio is slashing .225/.326/.372 in that same time period.

 

Just saying.

[Laika]

*Craig Biggio's son* is slashing...

[connorp]

Santiago Espinal is slashing .274/.342/.375 since April 17th.

 

Cavan Biggio is slashing .225/.326/.372 in that same time period.

 

Just saying.

 

If I was writing a thesis on the boards fascination with CB, I would probably suggest there’s some sort of sexual undertones thing going on. Espinal doesn’t seem to have that same draw, even with the weight lifting.

[Brownie19]

Santiago Espinal is slashing .274/.342/.375 since April 17th.

 

Cavan Biggio is slashing .225/.326/.372 in that same time period.

 

Just saying.

 

Yes, since April 17th, Espi has a wRC+ of 100 and Biggio's is 97. They've been worth 0.4 and 0.3 WAR respectfully. Over the same period, Vlad has been worth 0.1 WAR.

 

Move the date to 1 week later and Espi is at a wRC+ of 93, while Cavan is at 108

 

Jump forward another week (May 1st) and Espi is at a wRC+ of 87, while Cavan is at 111