General Blue Jays Discussion Thread (2023)

[John_Havok]

He hasn't been playing 3B in 4 years, why the hell did BA report this on DS mid season report? *He’s a versatile defender who’s seen time at second, in the outfield corners and his natural position of third base.*

 

Also, that wasn't silly, I wasn't aware he can't play 3rd. Espy's been f***ing atrocious on both sides of the game this season.

 

He’s played 22 games total at 3b since the end of 2019. 119 total innings. Their statement is correct on the surface but since they failed to provide additional clarifying context in the number of games and innings he’s played there, it’s somewhat incomplete

[jaysblue]

Haha I don’t disagree right now. But you have to play Vlad and hope he gets it going. Doesn’t mean he has to hit third though

 

Yeah even from watching the game tonight, I saw the Phillies had Turner hitting 6th and Realmuto hitting 7th. I was saying to myself, why aren't the Jays moving guys down in the order like Vlad or Springer who have been struggling. Vladdy shouldn't be hitting third. They need to drop him down in the lineup. Other teams like the Phillies have done that with their stars.

[Ehjays]

 

 

Bad calls for both sides, MLB should not tolerate. A bad ump can spoil a great game.

[Daniel Labude]

[Spanky99]

He’s played 22 games total at 3b since the end of 2019. 119 total innings. Their statement is correct on the surface but since they failed to provide additional clarifying context in the number of games and innings he’s played there, it’s somewhat incomplete

 

Or he's being blocked by the likes of Chapman? They have his D as average, I'm sure he can play the position in a pinch, like I said they must think Espy's a better option but he's been really bad this season, actually, bad since he bulked up. That's the 3rd game off my head he's turned a game around to an L. Frustrating.

[Brownie19]

Atkins, John, and the entire coaching staff should be in the hot seat if we miss the playoffs. Frankly they should all be gone if that happens.

 

Not sure I get this. Vlad, Kirk and Manoah were projected (by steamers) to produce 5.2, 4.3 and 2.6 WAR (12 WAR total) this season and have provided to date, 0.4, 1.2 and -0.4 (1.2 WAR total). Even if they performed at 25% below their projections, we're cruising into the playoffs - we might even be a 100 win team. f***, we're probably cruising into the playoffs if they gave us 50% of their projections, which would still be a massive disappointment. It's really hard to fathom just how s***** those 3 have been.

 

I fully understand that front offices need to plan for 's*** to go wrong' and while I'm sure there are examples where teams have overcome more and still won, I think the chances of overcoming this type of situation is low and more often than not, any FO/Manager would fail. You simply need a lot of other things to break you way. To be honest, the Jays have had a ton of things break their way this year, which is the only reason we're in the playoff chase. Does the FO and Manager deserve kudos for finding a way to overcome these challenges? Maybe, but there's probably a lot of luck involved. Do I think they should clean house if they ultimate fail to overcome a disastrous season by 3 of their young, star players? I do not.

 

Those 3 players chose to show up this year completely out of shape and unable to perform and have essentially sunk the team. I'm told the FO can do very little to ensure players show up in shape, outside of asking nicely (which I think is BS). If the team is disappointed in the outcome of this season - why wouldn't you blame the 3 players directly related to it first and look at fixing that issue?

 

Does anyone really think a new FO or Manager is going to be able to win here if Vlad, Kirk and Manoah give them 1.2 WAR total? This isn't the NFL where fat f***s like Ndamukong Suh show up to camp overweight and the team just cuts their ass and moves on. You could suggest Atkins should have already traded these 3 losers, but we all know it's not that easy. Anyone leading this team is going to have an uphill battle to fix this problem. Need to find a way to get them motivated to perform to the levels they are capable of - which is obviously easier said than done.

 

This is so s***** for fans. We go from having a generational talent to a useless f*** who's a replacement level player. Vlad has almost single handedly f***ed this organization over. Blame hitting coaches, managers, FO all you want - but he's f***ed this team over. We'd probably be in a better position right now if he blew out his knee and didn't play at all this year. Instead we're stuck running him out there daily - just hoping he figures something out.

[thatoneguy]

I mean at some point the conditioning staff needs to be questioned as to why these guys are so out of shape, which is likely affecting their performance. Why the players haven’t been held more fully accountable for their lack of commitment to fitness is questionable. If it was one guy that’d be one thing, but multiple? Vlad absolutely needs a kick in the ass like being sent to the minors.

[Daniel Labude]

Yeah even from watching the game tonight, I saw the Phillies had Turner hitting 6th and Realmuto hitting 7th. I was saying to myself, why aren't the Jays moving guys down in the order like Vlad or Springer who have been struggling. Vladdy shouldn't be hitting third. They need to drop him down in the lineup. Other teams like the Phillies have done that with their stars.

 

They are down there cause they have been terrible. By terrible I mean legit. Not just worse than your super highly oversized expectations, I mean legit terrible and other hitters on their team team much better on the season

 

 

Interestingly, Vlad would be the 3rd best hitter on the Phillies lmao

[Omar]

I mean at some point the conditioning staff needs to be questioned as to why these guys are so out of shape, which is likely affecting their performance. Why the players haven’t been held more fully accountable for their lack of commitment to fitness is questionable. If it was one guy that’d be one thing, but multiple? Vlad absolutely needs a kick in the ass like being sent to the minors.

 

It is tough to tell a millionaire ball player to eat less and workout more. If as a trainer you alienate or piss off the player you’re done for. Vladdy and Kirk don’t seem to want to miss meals and run lap’s unfortunately.

[Jonn]

Vladdy should be demoted to Flordia Complex League to fix his swing.

[Stangstag]

Vladdy should be demoted to Flordia Complex League to fix his swing.

 

He needs to be moved down in the lineup when Bo returns. Put him like 5th/6th

 

Whit

Bo

Belt

Springer

Vlad

Cavan

Chapman

Jansen/Kirk

Varsho/KK

[jaysblue]

Atkins, John, and the entire coaching staff should be in the hot seat if we miss the playoffs. Frankly they should all be gone if that happens.

 

I think some serious decisions will have to be made if this team does fail to make the Postseason. It is inevitable with any sports franchise if they came in with high expectations, whether in the NHL, NBA or NFL etc, and fail to make the playoffs.

 

I don't think Atkins should be fired if the Jays missed the Postseason, but he would be on an extremely short leash with 2024 likely being his last opportunity to do something. I would hope he looks at the roster construction of this team and realizes there is something fundamentally wrong with this lineup. He'll have to make some serious changes. At the same time, I think he's replaceable so if the Jays did go that route, I'm not going to be losing sleep over it.

 

Schneider and the coaching staff likely would get the boot first before Atkins does.

 

If the team fails to make any noise in 2024, then Atkins is likely gone mid-season and they bring in a new face to start the mini re-build/retool. If they can't sign Bo to an extension, he's traded before he becomes a FA.

[The Cats Ass]

I mean at some point the conditioning staff needs to be questioned as to why these guys are so out of shape, which is likely affecting their performance. Why the players haven’t been held more fully accountable for their lack of commitment to fitness is questionable. If it was one guy that’d be one thing, but multiple? Vlad absolutely needs a kick in the ass like being sent to the minors.

 

I think this season will be Manoah's wake up call. I expect he'll look different next spring training.

[Daniel Labude]

I think this season will be Manoah's wake up call. I expect he'll look different next spring training.

 

Apparently the improvements in his weight have already begun, which is a positive sign

[Olerud363]

This is so s***** for fans. We go from having a generational talent to a useless f*** who's a replacement level player. Vlad has almost single handedly f***ed this organization over. Blame hitting coaches, managers, FO all you want - but he's f***ed this team over. We'd probably be in a better position right now if he blew out his knee and didn't play at all this year. Instead we're stuck running him out there daily - just hoping he figures something out.

 

I guess on the other side you could argue you need coach's who can reach Vlad and the other 2 and do everything they can to address their fitness and fix what are obviously mechanical problems for all 3. You could move on from those players instead if no one can reach them, but who determines that? Maybe Rogers just wants another group to work with them.

 

Without considering spray Vlad's batted ball data looks fine, but I saw LTBF posted a breakdown. Vlad's pull ground ball rate seems really high and I don't see how he'll ever be a good hitter with that breakdown.

 

If he pull's a lot of hard ground balls, hit's a lot of flyballs 380 to 390 to center, and then hit's some popup to short left with a launch angle of 40, I bet his xwOBA and average launch angle looks great and the spray angles look great and the xwOBA looks great. But if the launch angle spray pattern isn't just a fluke his real wOBA is deserved.

[Brownie19]

It is tough to tell a millionaire ball player to eat less and workout more. If as a trainer you alienate or piss off the player you’re done for. Vladdy and Kirk don’t seem to want to miss meals and run lap’s unfortunately.

 

There are already reports that Vlad won't listen to the coaching staff and the team has had to cater to this diva by bringing in his uncle Wilton, EE and others because he refuses to work with the team. This happens in hockey too (I have direct contacts who confirm this). Some players don't want to hear the truth. They want 'yes men' around them or people they 'trust' and if you deny that, you risk alienating them and hurting the relationship. It's a f***ing tough position to be in.

 

Would a different Manager or Hitting Coach change that? I mean there's a chance they would, but there's a much higher chance they won't be able to. If Vlad is playing to his potential, there's literally 0 discussion about firing anyone. Vlad inability to be in shape and the necessary adjustments is holding this team back and if he's unwilling to work with team personnel to fix this - everyone's hands are somewhat tied unfortunately. You can trade this cancer for 10 cents on the dollar if you want, or you ride this out and hope he figures it out. Those are the options. This is such a polarizing situation. I f***ing hate Vlad for all of this because it certainly seems like he doesn't give 2 shits.

[Brownie19]

I think this season will be Manoah's wake up call. I expect he'll look different next spring training.

 

I would tend to agree with this. I don't get that impression with Kirk or Vlad.

[Brownie19]

I guess on the other side you could argue you need coach's who can reach Vlad and the other 2 and do everything they can to address their fitness and fix what are obviously mechanical problems for all 3. You could move on from those players instead if no one can reach them, but who determines that?

 

I've told this already, but I have heard first hand that the Leafs are dealing with this with multiple players right now. Guys who don't want to hear about the holes in their games, nor work to fix them. The team has now changed GM's, coaches and training staff and it's the same result, no matter who tries to get through to them. I suspect this is pretty common in pro sports. Bringing in a 'new voice' works with high school kids - but rarely works with 26 year old millionaires.

[max silver]

There are already reports that Vlad won't listen to the coaching staff and the team has had to cater to this diva by bringing in his uncle Wilton, EE and others because he refuses to work with the team. This happens in hockey too (I have direct contacts who confirm this). Some players don't want to hear the truth. They want 'yes men' around them or people they 'trust' and if you deny that, you risk alienating them and hurting the relationship. It's a f***ing tough position to be in.

 

Would a different Manager or Hitting Coach change that? I mean there's a chance they would, but there's a much higher chance they won't be able to. If Vlad is playing to his potential, there's literally 0 discussion about firing anyone. Vlad inability to be in shape and the necessary adjustments is holding this team back and if he's unwilling to work with team personnel to fix this - everyone's hands are somewhat tied unfortunately. You can trade this cancer for 10 cents on the dollar if you want, or you ride this out and hope he figures it out. Those are the options. This is such a polarizing situation. I f***ing hate Vlad for all of this because it certainly seems like he doesn't give 2 shits.

 

I think Vlad might be playing through injury this season. He simply hasn't been the same guy at the plate since suffering the wrist issue cropped up in mid May, and I also have suspicions that he may be hampered by a knee issue as well that's affecting his mobility in the field at first base. He suffered from knee issues in the spring and early in the season as well so he's likely not 100% healed from this. His defensive numbers have really cratered which could certainly be due to a knee issue causing a loss of mobility. His sprint speed is down a touch compared to the last few seasons but nowhere close to the super out of shape covid season values so I don't think he's in terrible shape this season.

[polar bear]

Vladdy should be demoted to Flordia Complex League to fix his swing.

 

It’s his head he needs fixing.

[glory]

This competitive window was predicated on Vlad being a superstar so if he’s a 0-2 WAR player instead, then Atkins is kind of f***ed. It’s actually a testament to how good his recent short term MLB moves have been that they are this good despite Vlad being a 0 WAR player. Either way if the Jays miss the playoffs, then ultimately it’s the front office and/or coaching staff that will take the fall for Vlad not living up to expectations.

[Brownie19]

This competitive window was predicated on Vlad being a superstar so if he’s a 0-2 WAR player instead, then Atkins is kind of f***ed. It’s actually a testament to how good his recent short term MLB moves have been that they are this good despite Vlad being a 0 WAR player. Either way if the Jays miss the playoffs, then ultimately it’s the front office and/or coaching staff that will take the fall for Vlad not living up to expectations.

 

I think that's total ********, but agree that's what happens in sports. Vlad will get a raise at the end of the year, which he 10000% doesn't deserve, while coaches and FO staff who probably deserve the raise for keeping us in the playoff run, will get fired. And 'most' fans will agree with it. That's professional sports.

[Brownie19]

Anyone think we'll reach a point anytime soon where fans turn on Vlad? Has he ever been boo'd?

[Laika]

Anyone think we'll reach a point anytime soon where fans turn on Vlad? Has he ever been boo'd?

 

I think so

 

If this forum is any indication sentiment is pretty close to tilting

[wilko]

Anyone think we'll reach a point anytime soon where fans turn on Vlad? Has he ever been boo'd?

 

They will start booing him when he's hitting below 100mph exit velocity worm burners to SS.

[Jimcanuck]

It’s his head he needs fixing.

 

I'm not so sure. There are a lot more moving parts in his swing then I remember. Is it his head, or mechanical. Probably both.

[Brownie19]

I'm not so sure. There are a lot more moving parts in his swing then I remember. Is it his head, or mechanical. Probably both.

 

I heard Buck on an interview say he thinks it's because he has no separation between his hands and his front foot. Which he's never had - and of course I highly doubt Buck has any idea how to teach a hitter to succeed against the velo we see in the majors right now.

[BigCecil]

I think that's total ********, but agree that's what happens in sports. Vlad will get a raise at the end of the year, which he 10000% doesn't deserve, while coaches and FO staff who probably deserve the raise for keeping us in the playoff run, will get fired. And 'most' fans will agree with it. That's professional sports.

 

True. That’s life. Not always fair. Buntoyo wasn’t my fav but Ross showed him the door last year, after hiring him. Was it his fault they were scuffling? On the margins maybe. Managers, coaches and FO usually take the fall. The ironic reality of this season is the team is doing pretty well relative to the league. The FO has assembled a very good to great pen and rotation. The projection underperformance offensively has hurt their ability to score runs and kept them being a truly upper echelon team so far. That’s all juxtaposed against high expectations. All will be forgiven, like 2016, if they can get in and make a splash most likely. It’s at least quite conceivable, if not probable, Vlad and Springer go on a tear like Bo did late last season. Let’s hope. We keep waiting for it like a Christmas morning when you are a kid, that just doesn’t come.

[BigCecil]

I'm not so sure. There are a lot more moving parts in his swing then I remember. Is it his head, or mechanical. Probably both.

 

Agree. The hands. The toe tap. The timing and flow must be so difficult. I hate how late he is so often on even below average fastballs in a hot zone of the plate.

[Jimcanuck]

Agree. The hands. The toe tap. The timing and flow must be so difficult. I hate how late he is so often on even below average fastballs in a hot zone of the plate.

 

Short to the ball is how most players succeed against today's pitches. But as posted earlier, Vladdy is resisting the advice of coaches. Seems to be a stubborn fella, probably the same reason for the ice water dumping continuing long after it became stale and stupid.