General Blue Jays Discussion Thread (2023)

[BigCecil]

Yeah Rogers just cares about putting butts into the seats and having fans spend on food/beverages and merch. Obviously they want the Jays to win a World Series but at the end of the day, as long as they're making profits that's all that matters. If the Jays remain competitive every season, even if it means just challenging for a Wildcard every time or get knocked out in the ALDS, they still will fill the seats the following season.

 

It's the same with MLSE from a business perspective. No matter if the Leafs get bounced in the 1st and 2nd rounds every season, they still make money. Fans will still pay huge amounts to attend games, spends hundreds on concessions in the arena, and on merch. Corporate will still buy out boxes etc.

 

Its a business. An 87-92 ish Win team puts bums in seats and eyeballs on the TV coast to coast to coast.

 

A big payroll commitment from the owners and the new extra wildcard makes it easier to maintain relevance to fan base. "If you get the playoffs its all luck from there on and anything can happen" seems to be their business objective & mantra. You can see the logic in it.

[jaysblue]

The Jays are right on the edge of the luxury tax limits. Why on earth are people suggesting that Rogers isn't committed to putting a winning team on the field?

 

Winning in baseball is hard, there are a ton of variables. The Cubs went 107 years between championships, the Red Sox went 87. It sucks as a fan, but sometimes there isn't anyone to blame.

 

Never said Rogers wasn't committed. They want the team to be competitive every season especially with the new Wildcard format. The Jays could still be an 85-90 win team and be considered competitive even if they don't make the Postseason. But at the end of the day, it's all about making money. I don't think Rogers will get all amped up as some members on here if the Jays lose in a close WC matchup or ALDS lol. Shapiro was brought in here to create a better baseball in-game experience and he has done that. There are more casuals at Jays games now than ever before. Not all because of the product on the field, more for the entertainment, patio bars, in-game experiences at the Rogers Centre.

[BigCecil]

Short of winning the World Series, how they handle the Bo and Vladdy contract situations may well be the defining points of the Shapiro/Atkins era. Whether it involves trading or signing it will impact this team for the rest of this decade. Interesting times ahead.

 

Really will be interesting heading into in their '25 walk year.

 

How do you value a 26-27 year old who can hit the ball as hard as anyone but is a 1B producing only 0.4 WAR in 2023?

 

How do you value a 27-28 year old SS who is bottom third defensively but has incredible bat to ball skills - a low BB rate and a 10th percentile chase rate? I'm in the minority I'm sure, but the chase is a concern to me given his limited D upside. If he doesn't hit like he is now a long term expensive deal would be painful. Like Baez and Teo etc etc, the guys with high chase and lower BB rate/OBP skills have the hardest time maintaining production as they age.

Edited August 2, 2023 by BigCecil

[mellowgold]

It is truly astonishing that Guillermo continues to have a job. I really don't know why they've held on to this guy for this long. The offense is practically begging for a compete philosophical overhaul.

[John_Havok]

Never said Rogers wasn't committed. They want the team to be competitive every season especially with the new Wildcard format. The Jays could still be an 85-90 win team and be considered competitive even if they don't make the Postseason. But at the end of the day, it's all about making money. I don't think Rogers will get all amped up as some members on here if the Jays lose in a close WC matchup or ALDS lol. Shapiro was brought in here to create a better baseball in-game experience and he has done that. There are more casuals at Jays games now than ever before. Not all because of the product on the field, more for the entertainment, patio bars, in-game experiences at the Rogers Centre.

 

On field product still matters, just look at a history of the attendance and cross reference with their record. Maybe the renovations will help stem the fans apathy in the future, but we don't know that for sure yet. Generally, the attendance spikes in the 1-2 seasons after a major playoff run, then drops right off again during the rebuilds, then creeps back up as their record gets better, as one would expect.

[wamco]

I wouldn’t lose any sleep if they traded vlad in the off-season and reinvested his salary elsewhere. I want no part of investing a long term contract in him. Love the kid but business is business.

Like bassitt said, bo is our best player.

[hanton]

It is truly astonishing that Guillermo continues to have a job. I really don't know why they've held on to this guy for this long. The offense is practically begging for a compete philosophical overhaul.

 

at the organizational level - so not just the major league club, yes.

[jaysblue]

On field product still matters, just look at a history of the attendance and cross reference with their record. Maybe the renovations will help stem the fans apathy in the future, but we don't know that for sure yet. Generally, the attendance spikes in the 1-2 seasons after a major playoff run, then drops right off again during the rebuilds, then creeps back up as their record gets better, as one would expect.

 

Yeah I never said the on field product doesn't matter for Rogers. They need it to be good enough to be competitive every season. Do you think most casuals care so much if the on field product is a 100 win team or 90 win team? They still will go to the Dome on summer evenings and weekends, spend over $100 on beer, socializing on the new outfield patios lol. Whether this team is a 90-100 win team, it won't matter. Rogers will still be raking in the cash.

[Stangstag]

It is truly astonishing that Guillermo continues to have a job. I really don't know why they've held on to this guy for this long. The offense is practically begging for a compete philosophical overhaul.

 

Yup, embarrassing

[Jonn]

7-22 against the AL East is so staggering.

 

It’s not just lack of hitting either. The Orioles and Red Sox have decimated this pitching staff. The numbers are insanely ugly.

[Brownie19]

It is truly astonishing that Guillermo continues to have a job. I really don't know why they've held on to this guy for this long. The offense is practically begging for a compete philosophical overhaul.

 

Do people honestly think there's a team wide philosophical approach? You think Guillermo/Schneider came into camp this year and told them our new philosophy with 2 strikes is to cut down your swing and put the ball in play? or that in general, they all need to spray the ball more to all fields, or increase their contact rate? or with RISP, they all need to do something specific? Do you think ever player would buy into that and change their approach? This isn't little league.

 

Do you think they sat Springer down and said "I know you've had a f***ton of success throughout your career, but we need you to change this year?". Do you think they've told Vlad to be more aggressive and increase his chase rate?

 

C'mon. Each individual hitter plays to their strengths. You're not going to have a "complete philosophical overhaul". That said, would a new hitting coach help? It could, but not because he's going to change their approach. If a new coach comes in and they start hitting better with RISP, it's probably a f***ton of luck involved and sometimes you seem to get hitters more dialed in because they know their results cost someone their job. A new coach may also simply provide a new voice to the players and that might have some effect on them, as hitting is 90% mental.

 

However, the vast majority of these players all have their own personal coach that they turn to when they are in a slump. Someone from their past (dad, uncle, etc.) who got them to the majors - someone they trust - and often someone who just tells them what they want to hear. I already told this, but I know a guy who's a skating coach for the Leafs and he says there are several players who refuse to even skate with him (and refuse to work with other internal coaches). They often don't want to hear the truth. When those players are 'stars', they often have the leverage to make the team fly in their old, trusted coach to help them because they won't listen/work with the team coaches. I 100% expect that s*** happens at in baseball also. If Vlad, Varsho, Kirk and Springer all refuse to work with Guillermo (or any other hitting coach) than there's not much he can do.

 

Despite our struggles, we're still 7th in MLB in wRC+.

[Daniel Labude]

Do people honestly think there's a team wide philosophical approach? You think Guillermo/Schneider came into camp this year and told them our new philosophy with 2 strikes is to cut down your swing and put the ball in play? or that in general, they all need to spray the ball more to all fields, or increase their contact rate? or with RISP, they all need to do something specific? Do you think ever player would buy into that and change their approach? This isn't little league.

 

Do you think they sat Springer down and said "I know you've had a f***ton of success throughout your career, but we need you to change this year?". Do you think they've told Vlad to be more aggressive and increase his chase rate?

 

C'mon. Each individual hitter plays to their strengths. You're not going to have a "complete philosophical overhaul". That said, would a new hitting coach help? It could, but not because he's going to change their approach. If a new coach comes in and they start hitting better with RISP, it's probably a f***ton of luck involved and sometimes you seem to get hitters more dialed in because they know their results cost someone their job. A new coach may also simply provide a new voice to the players and that might have some effect on them, as hitting is 90% mental.

 

However, the vast majority of these players all have their own personal coach that they turn to when they are in a slump. Someone from their past (dad, uncle, etc.) who got them to the majors - someone they trust - and often someone who just tells them what they want to hear. I already told this, but I know a guy who's a skating coach for the Leafs and he says there are several players who refuse to even skate with him (and refuse to work with other internal coaches). They often don't want to hear the truth. When those players are 'stars', they often have the leverage to make the team fly in their old, trusted coach to help them because they won't listen/work with the team coaches. I 100% expect that s*** happens at in baseball also. If Vlad, Varsho, Kirk and Springer all refuse to work with Guillermo (or any other hitting coach) than there's not much he can do.

 

Despite our struggles, we're still 7th in MLB in wRC+.

 

Yes they have even discussed the philosophical approach at length at different times throughout the season

[DigitalRock]

7-22 against the AL East is so staggering.

 

It’s not just lack of hitting either. The Orioles and Red Sox have decimated this pitching staff. The numbers are insanely ugly.

It’s the AL east if you don’t hit you are toast. This offense has had isssues keeping up all season

[Daniel Labude]

I wouldn’t lose any sleep if they traded vlad in the off-season and reinvested his salary elsewhere. I want no part of investing a long term contract in him. Love the kid but business is business.

Like bassitt said, bo is our best player.

 

[Stangstag]

7-22 against the AL East is so staggering.

 

It’s not just lack of hitting either. The Orioles and Red Sox have decimated this pitching staff. The numbers are insanely ugly.

 

Its even worse. 1-15 against the Redsox and Os. Thats it. Thats the season right there.

 

6-7 against the Yankees/Rays is totally fine. Its the 1-15 that’s tanking the season

[Stangstag]

Do people honestly think there's a team wide philosophical approach? You think Guillermo/Schneider came into camp this year and told them our new philosophy with 2 strikes is to cut down your swing and put the ball in play? or that in general, they all need to spray the ball more to all fields, or increase their contact rate? or with RISP, they all need to do something specific? Do you think ever player would buy into that and change their approach? This isn't little league.

 

Do you think they sat Springer down and said "I know you've had a f***ton of success throughout your career, but we need you to change this year?". Do you think they've told Vlad to be more aggressive and increase his chase rate?

 

C'mon. Each individual hitter plays to their strengths. You're not going to have a "complete philosophical overhaul". That said, would a new hitting coach help? It could, but not because he's going to change their approach. If a new coach comes in and they start hitting better with RISP, it's probably a f***ton of luck involved and sometimes you seem to get hitters more dialed in because they know their results cost someone their job. A new coach may also simply provide a new voice to the players and that might have some effect on them, as hitting is 90% mental.

 

However, the vast majority of these players all have their own personal coach that they turn to when they are in a slump. Someone from their past (dad, uncle, etc.) who got them to the majors - someone they trust - and often someone who just tells them what they want to hear. I already told this, but I know a guy who's a skating coach for the Leafs and he says there are several players who refuse to even skate with him (and refuse to work with other internal coaches). They often don't want to hear the truth. When those players are 'stars', they often have the leverage to make the team fly in their old, trusted coach to help them because they won't listen/work with the team coaches. I 100% expect that s*** happens at in baseball also. If Vlad, Varsho, Kirk and Springer all refuse to work with Guillermo (or any other hitting coach) than there's not much he can do.

 

Despite our struggles, we're still 7th in MLB in wRC+.

 

Yes, that’s exactly what happened. They saw the shift change + base change and decided on a whole new hitting philosophy trying to be the progressive team. And it totally backfired

[Brownie19]

Yes, that’s exactly what happened. They saw the shift change + base change and decided on a whole new hitting philosophy trying to be the progressive team. And it totally backfired

 

What? What changes have they made? The size of the base changed their hitting philosophy? What?

[Captain_Obvious]

I wouldn’t lose any sleep if they traded vlad in the off-season and reinvested his salary elsewhere. I want no part of investing a long term contract in him. Love the kid but business is business.

Like bassitt said, bo is our best player.

 

Trading Vlad should be plan A this off season. I am confident that Horwitz with his 16% walk rate can at least match Vlad's production.

[Daniel Labude]

Trading Vlad should be plan A this off season. I am confident that Horwitz with his 16% walk rate can at least match Vlad's production.

 

[Omar]

Really will be interesting heading into in their '25 walk year.

 

How do you value a 26-27 year old who can hit the ball as hard as anyone but is a 1B producing only 0.4 WAR in 2023?

 

How do you value a 27-28 year old SS who is bottom third defensively but has incredible bat to ball skills - a low BB rate and a 10th percentile chase rate? I'm in the minority I'm sure, but the chase is a concern to me given his limited D upside. If he doesn't hit like he is now a long term expensive deal would be painful. Like Baez and Teo etc etc, the guys with high chase and lower BB rate/OBP skills have the hardest time maintaining production as they age.

 

I know casuals don’t like to hear it but the smart move is to unload both Bichette and Vladdy and just hit the reset button. Get what you can for them (especially Vladdy who’s value dips every year) over the next two years and move on as an organization. I would be fine with that because I don’t give a s*** what the fan base thinks. Hopefully Shapiro and Atkins think the same.

[bluejaysinternNo5]

This might be sacrilege but Vlad is my least favourite Jay’s player in a longtime.

[Brownie19]

This might be sacrilege but Vlad is my least favourite Jay’s player in a longtime.

 

I've long felt this. I really hate Vlad. Such a waste of talent so far. It's infuriating.

[bluejaysinternNo5]

I've long felt this. I really hate Vlad. Such a waste of talent so far. It's infuriating.

 

Glad to know it’s not just me. It’s the whole combination of the media gaslighting the fan base into thinking Vlad is a superstar on par with Tatis, Acuna, etc, to Vlad’s nonchalant goofy attitude and constant ice baths that players hate, his weight being a problem for years now, his constant underperformance aside from a year where get to mash in minor league parks again, etc.

 

At the end of the day you can sum up Vlad as an overweight, underperforming, unserious nepo baby. And that’s just sad given the potential he had.

[BlueBaller]

I've long felt this. I really hate Vlad. Such a waste of talent so far. It's infuriating.

Nobody hates that friggin clown show as much as me. He's the biggest bum I've ever seen

[RustyTrombone]

All this Vlad talk is eerily similar to the Bo talk last summer but even more unfounded. Reaaaaaly hoping Vlad hits up to his quality of contact for the rest of the season to shut up all these brainlets......

[BlueBaller]

All this Vlad talk is eerily similar to the Bo talk last summer but even more unfounded. Reaaaaaly hoping Vlad hits up to his quality of contact for the rest of the season to shut up all these brainlets......

 

Ya he's really playing well!

[Captain_Obvious]

I've long felt this. I really hate Vlad. Such a waste of talent so far. It's infuriating.

 

I think IQ is an underappreciated quality in baseball. For example, Votto would be no where as successful as he has been for so long in his career had he not been a very smart and analytical player. Now try to put Vlad and Analytical in the same sentence while keeping a straight face.

 

Vlad is just dumb. You see it in his baserunning. You see it in his lack of adjustment. You see it in his inability to listen to his teammates when they tell him to f*** off with his childish antics during interviews. The guy is full of himself and does not realize how dumb and replacement-level he is.

[bluejaysinternNo5]

All this Vlad talk is eerily similar to the Bo talk last summer but even more unfounded. Reaaaaaly hoping Vlad hits up to his quality of contact for the rest of the season to shut up all these brainlets......

 

Bo and Vlad are two different situations. Bo has always played to his potential from day 1 - people dumping on Bo last season was unfounded. He was still providing positive value even through his struggles.

 

Vlad has been replacement level 3 of his 5 major league seasons.

[BlueBaller]

I think IQ is an underappreciated quality in baseball. For example, Votto would be no where as successful as he has been for so long in his career had he not been a very smart and analytical player. Now try to put Vlad and Analytical in the same sentence while keeping a straight face.

 

Vlad is just dumb. You see it in his baserunning. You see it in his lack of adjustment. You see it in his inability to listen to his teammates when they tell him to f*** off with his childish antics during interviews. The guy is full of himself and does not realize how dumb and replacement-level he is.

 

Agreed. 70 iq.

[BlueBaller]

Many people still haven't adjusted expectations on Vlad despite 2000 ab's of data.

 

He's not what we thought he was. It's ok to admit it and move on.