Would you fire Atkins

[Dagagad]

That’s not really what he did, it’s a weird interpretation of what Atkins said. The entire quote from Atkins seems to be getting lost in all the fans’ whining

 

I honestly think he did. He emphasized that those decisions were made in schneider’s meetings,,, which in my opinion ignores a s*** ton of context. He also made it seem like the FO played a passive role when it came to analysis and information dissemination.. which i find hard to believe.

[Carlos Danger]

That’s not really what he did, it’s a weird interpretation of what Atkins said. The entire quote from Atkins seems to be getting lost in all the fans’ whining

 

Atkins stated the following correct?

 

1. Wasn't involved in the pre-game planning, wasn't in the room.

2. John's decision

3. Saw Kikuchi was warming, but was just as surprised as anyone when Berrios was pulled when he was.

 

That is three statements that defer the decision from the FO direct to the manager.

 

This would mean someone is lying or twisting facts based on the statements of insiders about JS's comments to players and players comments to JS. As well as Berrio's comments and the reaction of JS and Pete Walker when it went down.

 

Regardless, we have a very disjointed internal, and I would wager now awkward dynamic on the team and the results on the field are unsat.

 

Changes at the manager level or above need to be made.

 

I fired a guy who ran one of our departments in Mexico after a number of incidents occurred over a period of time. The straw that broke the camels back is when he tried to blame it on subordinate employees and not take accountability. At that point it became an integrity issue and loss of confidence on my part as to his ability to function as an effective manager and leader.

 

It might not have been MLB. However, the same leadership principals apply.

Edited October 8, 2023 by Carlos Danger

[John_Havok]

I honestly think he did. He emphasized that those decisions were made in schneider’s meetings,,, which in my opinion ignores a s*** ton of context. He also made it seem like the FO played a passive role when it came to analysis and information dissemination.

 

What if they actually do play a passive role. Simply provide info and let Schneider make the decisions.

 

What if the do the above, while at the same time providing a general framework?

 

What’s more likely, the complete hands off approach, the middle approach stated above, or the complete dictatorship approach many seem to think exists?

[John_Havok]

Atkins stated the following correct?

 

1. Wasn't involved in the pre-game planning, wasn't in the room.

2. John's decision

3. Saw Kikuchi was warming, but was just as surprised as anyone when Berrios was pulled when he was.

 

That is three statements that defer the decision from the FO direct to the manager.

 

This would mean someone is lying or twisting facts based on the statements of insiders about JS's comments to players and players comments to JS. As well as Berrio's comments and the reaction of JS and Pete Walker when it went down.

 

Regardless, we have a very disjointed internal, and I would wager now awkward dynamic on the team and the results the field are unsat.

 

Changes at the manager level or above need to be made.

 

I fired a guy who ran one of our departments Mexico after a number of incidents occurred over a period of time. The straw that broke the camels back is when he tried to blame it on subordinate employees and not take accountability. At that point it became an integrity issue and loss of confidence on my part as his ability to function as an effective manager and leader.

 

It might not have been MLB. However, the same leadership principals apply.

 

Yeah for sure, but in this scenario, not everything can be true that people are bitching about. It can’t be a dictatorship where Atkins calls all the shots , but it also it can’t be completely hands off either.

 

Chances are it’s exactly what I said in previous comments, Schneider is 100% responsible for his decisions in game, is provided all info from the nerd they think is relevant, and that general framework exists that is meant to help or guide Schneider, even though the ultimate decision on what to do in game is his.

[John_Havok]

Atkins stated the following correct?

 

1. Wasn't involved in the pre-game planning, wasn't in the room.

2. John's decision

3. Saw Kikuchi was warming, but was just as surprised as anyone when Berrios was pulled when he was.

 

That is three statements that defer the decision from the FO direct to the manager.

 

This would mean someone is lying or twisting facts based on the statements of insiders about JS's comments to players and players comments to JS. As well as Berrio's comments and the reaction of JS and Pete Walker when it went down.

 

Regardless, we have a very disjointed internal, and I would wager now awkward dynamic on the team and the results the field are unsat.

 

Changes at the manager level or above need to be made.

 

I fired a guy who ran one of our departments Mexico after a number of incidents occurred over a period of time. The straw that broke the camels back is when he tried to blame it on subordinate employees and not take accountability. At that point it became an integrity issue and loss of confidence on my part as his ability to function as an effective manager and leader.

 

It might not have been MLB. However, the same leadership principals apply.

 

Side question though, when you gave direction to the Mexico guy, did you tell him point by point and task be task exactly what he had to do? Or just give him a directive and it was up to him to make decisions locally that fit the directive and then report why he made the decisions he made?

 

and then he just f***ed up the decisions, didn’t get the results and blamed someone else?

[Dagagad]

What if they actually do play a passive role. Simply provide info and let Schneider make the decisions.

 

What if the do the above, while at the same time providing a general framework?

 

What’s more likely, the complete hands off approach, the middle approach stated above, or the complete dictatorship approach many seem to think exists?

 

Thats possible, i’ll give you that.

 

To me that’s worse though. The front office should be smarter than the manager in modern baseball and you’d expect them to have a big say in most decisions. I’m probably in the minority but i’d prefer if the fo was involved heavily and they just messed this one up. That’s better to me than hiring a minor league manager and giving him that much rope.

 

At the very least there should be an analytics guy with real say in those meetings.

[hanton]

Produce a quote where any of them said that Atkins made the call.

 

 

 

 

I cannot., The players understand so thats good enough for me

[Carlos Danger]

Side question though, when you gave direction to the Mexico guy, did you tell him point by point and task be task exactly what he had to do? Or just give him a directive and it was up to him to make decisions locally that fit the directive and then report why he made the decisions he made?

 

and then he just f***ed up the decisions, didn’t get the results and blamed someone else?

 

To try and give you a quick answer on the above. I expect that when something is not working or there is a screwup or you are not achieving results, that you come up with corrective action.

 

You can deep dive, root cause analysis, ask for more tools or support, make a case for more $$ or headcount, make personnel changes with *justification, but present a corrective action, execute and provide results.

 

*If you choose to make a personnel change, I want to make sure you set that employee up for success and gave them the tools they needed to prosper and it was a performance issue despite of all that.

 

However, if you as the Head of a Department have not taken appropriate corrective actions, not set your Teams up for success and choose to blame subordinates for your failures, that to me becomes an integrity/personality trait I have a hard time getting past.

 

I saw JS fall on the sword after game 2 and talk about organizational approach. I truly thought that today, we would see the same corporate dribble we have seen the last 6,7 years and just talk about the org as a whole and processes etc, basically put us to sleep in their Canadian Thanksgiving weekend press conference (eye roll). OR, to hear Ross say that at the end of the day he is the GM and he is accountable.

 

I did not expect and was honestly shocked for Ross to deflect from the organizational processes and say it was John.

 

The loyalty and professionalism is not flowing both ways between JS and Atkins IMO when you say that. Atkins didn't have to answer like that. He could have deflected like he has for the past 6 years and say organizational decision.

 

He sold JS down the river and demonstrated his beta male core by not saying at the end of the day I am responsible. (Since he can't say Shapiro really is).

[Omar]

I cannot., The players understand so thats good enough for me

 

Well that is the crux of the issue. Atkins not only said he wasn't in the room, but that the decision makers were those who wear uniforms, ie. the coaching staff in the dugout. I tend to believe him.

[Carlos Danger]

Anyone have access to the Toronto Star - Rosie Di Manno article about Shapiro. It is behind a pay wall.

 

Thanks

[Dagagad]

Well that is the crux of the issue. Atkins not only said he wasn't in the room, but that the decision makers were those who wear uniforms, ie. the coaching staff in the dugout. I tend to believe him.

 

If this is literally true, he should be fired tomorrow.

[hanton]

Well that is the crux of the issue. Atkins not only said he wasn't in the room, but that the decision makers were those who wear uniforms, ie. the coaching staff in the dugout. I tend to believe him.

 

do you think JS is dumb? serios question

[John_Havok]

To try and give you a quick answer on the above. I expect that when something is not working or there is a screwup or you are not achieving results, that you come up with corrective action.

 

You can deep dive, root cause analysis, ask for more tools or support, make a case for more $$ or headcount, make personnel changes with *justification, but present a corrective action, execute and provide results.

 

*If you choose to make a personnel change, I want to make sure you set that employee up for success and gave them the tools they needed to prosper and it was a performance issue despite of all that.

 

However, if you as the Head of a Department have not taken appropriate corrective actions, not set your Teams up for success and choose to blame subordinates for your failures, that to me becomes an integrity/personality trait I have a hard time getting past.

 

I saw JS fall on the sword after game 2 and talk about organizational approach. I truly thought that today, we would see the same corporate dribble we have seen the last 6,7 years and just talk about the org as a whole and processes etc, basically put us to sleep in their Canadian Thanksgiving weekend press conference (eye roll). OR, to hear Ross say that at the end of the day he is the GM and he is accountable.

 

I did not expect and was honestly shocked for Ross to deflect from the organizational processes and say it was John.

 

The loyalty and professionalism is not flowing both ways between JS and Atkins IMO when you say that. Atkins didn't have to answer like that. He could have deflected like he has for the past 6 years and say organizational decision.

 

He sold JS down the river and demonstrated his beta male core by not saying at the end of the day I am responsible. (Since he can't say Shapiro really is).

 

I don’t see it that way, and one must keep n mind Atkins said plenty of other things relating to this topic that are only being reported partially. He did mention the org philosophy a couple of times. But the clickbait headlines that work best are “Atkins blames Schneider” because that gets clicks and will fit with people’s pre-determined dislike of Atkins.

 

Atkins said it was Schneider’s decision, Schneider said it was his own decision. I see no reason to think either of them are lying based on what they said and short of sifting through hundreds of pages of detailed meeting reports (if those are even kept) between Schneider and his staff and Schneider and Atkins, taking it at face value is the only logical course of action.

 

I’ve been studying up recently on body language and the language of lying, and it’s quite interesting when you ask someone questions and they give direct answers vs someone who deflects and declines to answer questions directly. Both Schneider and Atkins answered questions with direct answers and clear wording, nothing that would indicate either of them is not telling the truth.

 

People in general though, I’ll always read not what they hear based on their own pre-determined opinions of the person.

 

A quick and simple example of clear answers vs deflecting answers that may seem pretty close to the same.

 

Question is put to someone about whether they cheated on their spouse. 1 says “No, I never cheated.” The other says “I absolutely deny those allegations.”

 

Person #2 is far more likely to be lying. Person #1 issued a direct denial while person 2 did not. It seems like they are saying no they didn’t cheat, that’s not what they said, they are denying allegations, not the act of cheating.

 

It’s not a perfect science of course and there’s always exceptions, and anyone who has an agent or publicist will be coached on these kinds of things before they put out a statement, but when you’re on a press conference and it’s just you answering questions on the spot, your brain doesn’t work fast enough to know the difference.

[TheHurl]

I mean the Jays have a person who's title is Coordinator., Game Planning It's very possible that Schneider only goes to Theron Simpson for information

[Carlos Danger]

I don’t see it that way, and one must keep n mind Atkins said plenty of other things relating to this topic that are only being reported partially. He did mention the org philosophy a couple of times. But the clickbait headlines that work best are “Atkins blames Schneider” because that gets clicks and will fit with people’s pre-determined dislike of Atkins.

 

Atkins said it was Schneider’s decision, Schneider said it was his own decision. I see no reason to think either of them are lying based on what they said and short of sifting through hundreds of pages of detailed meeting reports (if those are even kept) between Schneider and his staff and Schneider and Atkins, taking it at face value is the only logical course of action.

 

I’ve been studying up recently on body language and the language of lying, and it’s quite interesting when you ask someone questions and they give direct answers vs someone who deflects and declines to answer questions directly. Both Schneider and Atkins answered questions with direct answers and clear wording, nothing that would indicate either of them is not telling the truth.

 

People in general though, I’ll always read not what they hear based on their own pre-determined opinions of the person.

 

A quick and simple example of clear answers vs deflecting answers that may seem pretty close to the same.

 

Question is put to someone about whether they cheated on their spouse. 1 says “No, I never cheated.” The other says “I absolutely deny those allegations.”

 

Person #2 is far more likely to be lying. Person #1 issued a direct denial while person 2 did not. It seems like they are saying no they didn’t cheat, that’s not what they said, they are denying allegations, not the act of cheating.

 

It’s not a perfect science of course and there’s always exceptions, and anyone who has an agent or publicist will be coached on these kinds of things before they put out a statement, but when you’re on a press conference and it’s just you answering questions on the spot, your brain doesn’t work fast enough to know the difference.

 

Well, I for one had been converted to an Atkins fan to start the season.

 

I was harping about Bassitt and Varsho in the off season thread and sure enough, he goes out and gets them. I was bitching about run prevention and the pen, and sure enough, he goes out and strengthens all. I loved the Merrifield trade the season prior and the Belt signing. I was also really happy with JS being made full time and Mattingly coming onboard.

 

I didn't think we had enough SP depth and probably didn't if we didn't get very lucky and have great SP health.

 

I also saw a GM who was aware of the offensive issues at the deadline and didn't address it properly. The offensive issue were prevalent in April and were consistent all the way through the end of July.

 

Roster construction that has Biggio hitting 5th in a playoff game is problematic. The fact they were not able to figure out this informational flow process change for the hitters after 162 plus 2 is not acceptable for me.

 

The fact that Shapiro and Atkins have been here almost 7 years and zero division winners, zero playoff wins not counting 2016 which was not a season Atkins can take full credit for.

 

We finished 3rd in our division. The Red Sox and Yankees have the ability to get good very fast. We have no substantial reinforcements and a team that was very bad at scoring runs especially with RISP and we broached the luxury tax.

 

The Anthony Bass situation was not handled well and f***ed up our pen for a few weeks after.

 

Then the whole Berrios thing....

 

I hadn't read one single article when the presser was over and my first thought and apparently thousands!! Of others based on the time stamps, was that Ross threw JS under the bus.

 

That is where I went from on sliding off the fence to tearing down the fence...

 

Good leaders take accountability and even jump on a few grenades for their Team or company. Ross took the grenade and threw it back into JS's office.

[hanton]

Anyone have access to the Toronto Star - Rosie Di Manno article about Shapiro. It is behind a pay wall.

 

Thanks

 

yes

 

she's ends it like this lol

 

......

How can Shapiro ever restore the faith of the forsaken faithful?

Send the carpetbagger from Cleveland packing.

[John_Havok]

yes

 

she's ends it like this lol

 

......

How can Shapiro ever restore the faith of the forsaken faithful?

Send the carpetbagger from Cleveland packing.

 

Gotta love opinion pieces.

[june.june]

Ross Atkins should have some decency to step down.

 

Nothing to show for the past 8 season.

 

Shameless Lying Ahole

[hanton]

I mean the Jays have a person who's title is Coordinator., Game Planning It's very possible that Schneider only goes to Theron Simpson for information

 

Yes. There's a s*** ton of data that the organization needs to gather and then put it into a format that can be easily absorbed by Simpson/JS....etc

 

it's not like Atkins was in the room telling JS to make moves, JS was conditioned over time - kinda like how AI is supposed to get "better" over time

[Spanky99]

Didn't think it was possible but that presser created the worst of all outcomes for this franchise.

 

Even if his version of the Berrios move is technically accurate, I like Atkins less = snake. And if it is accurate, Schneider has to go. I just don't believe the FO didn't create the environment for Schneider to feel he needed to make that move.

 

And we still only scored 1 run in 18 innings, coupled with horrendous base running.

 

I wonder if Shapiro delayed his media engagement to read the room on the reaction. He can come in and be the demonstrative hero and make change.

 

Yeah, this has convoluted into a he said she said...shitshow. I feel the latter is going to happen, Atkins showed zero accountability, snake oil salesman, shake it all up, Mark.

[hanton]

Didn't think it was possible but that presser created the worst of all outcomes for this franchise.

 

Even if his version of the Berrios move is technically accurate, I like Atkins less = snake. And if it is accurate, Schneider has to go. I just don't believe the FO didn't create the environment for Schneider to feel he needed to make that move.

 

And we still only scored 1 run in 18 innings, coupled with horrendous base running.

 

I wonder if Shapiro delayed his media engagement to read the room on the reaction. He can come in and be the demonstrative hero and make change.

 

....

[Stangstag]

 

Ugh. Seems like another wasted season already.

[Stangstag]

I can't believe both Akins and John are both returning. This is a massive off-season for them.

 

If both of these guys are returning, im gonna go ahead and say 2024 will be a shitshow. Like Whitesox level circus

[hanton]

Not mine but I found this pretty funny

 

reddit

Atkins: “I found out about the Varsho trade the same time the fans did”

[Spanky99]

I can't find Ross' presser on the net, this is frustrating, dammit!

[hanton]

I can't find Ross' presser on the net, this is frustrating, dammit!

 

I can only find it on TSN

 

https://www.tsn.ca/mlb/video/atkins-discusses-playoff-exit-controversial-decision-to-pull-berrios-early-in-game-2~2782335

[Spanky99]

I can only find it on TSN

 

https://www.tsn.ca/mlb/video/atkins-discusses-playoff-exit-controversial-decision-to-pull-berrios-early-in-game-2~2782335

 

Oh s***, thanks, that's it

[tazsub3]

Oh s***, thanks, that's it

 

You sure you want to ruin your sunday by listening to that fool?

[Omar]

Anyone have access to the Toronto Star - Rosie Di Manno article about Shapiro. It is behind a pay wall.

 

Thanks

 

Here you go:

 

I don’t know who to blame for the debacle that was the last Blue Jays game of 2023. But I do know who must wear the sackcloth and ashes: Mark Shapiro.Nothing happens on this club — from the roster composition to the analytics fanaticism, from the macro culture to the granular details — without the approval, the imprimatur, of the president, CEO and de facto general manager.

Which is why he needs to both give a forensic accounting of what transpired in Game 2 of the wild-card series and own it. Come out of the shadows, take it on the chin.

 

Buffeted in his boardroom, Shapiro rarely grants press conferences, unless he’s bragging about the $300-million, bells-and-whistles renovation of the Rogers Centre or the splashy player development complex in Dunedin. Typically his conversations with reporters are on the sly, planted leaks to acolytes on the Rogers payroll, literally. Eight days after the Jays came a cropper, dumped by Minnesota in the most cringe-inducing fashion — a new low in backfiring strategic engineering — Shapiro will address baseball hacks on Thursday.

But pushed out first to feed the rabid media horde was Shapiro’s sock puppet, general manager Ross Atkins. Let Atkins take the brunt of the blows while the outrage is still fresh. That’s what patsies are for.

 

On the Saturday morning of a long weekend — gee, thanks for that guys — Atkins assumed the position, yet again issuing a tortuous spate of blather that mostly signified nothing, mostly elucidated nothing, mostly illuminated nothing. And maybe Atkins still hangs the horns on manager John Schneider — next sap up — despite announcing he’ll be back next year. A skipper without a backbone doesn’t deserve the job. He’s expendable, as was Charlie Montoyo before him.

 

And Atkins did point the finger at Schneider. Quite forcefully threw him under the team charter, in fact, if simultaneously justifying the bizarre decision to remove starter José Berríos in the fourth inning of a scoreless game he’d been pitching masterfully, Schneider handing the ball to Yusei Kikuchi out of the bullpen.

 

“I was surprised he was coming out,” said Atkins.

“When that decision occurred, I found out when you did,” he insisted, denying Schneider had been following orders from a jackboot brass. “When Yusei was getting warm in the first inning, it was obviously very clear that we had a strategy to potentially deploy. There was no plan to concretely deploy that. John Schneider made that decision to deploy that.”

Adding: “There was no influence from the front office that factored into that.”

Pull the other one, Ross.

Asked point blank if it was a mistake, Atkins dodged. “I don’t believe in hindsight. I don’t believe in second-guessing.”

There are only two options here: Either Schneider — who looked unhappy trudging out to the mound where Berríos awaited, looked disgusted with himself I’d say — was doing the bidding of his chain-of-command superiors, as had been discussed in the pre-game meeting (which Atkins says he didn’t attend) or he acted unilaterally. And that was a colossal error in judgment. If the latter, it’s a mistake that merits the axe.

Everybody on that field knew it was wrong-headed.

“I think what caught people off-guard was how well José was pitching,” said Atkins.

Lord have mercy. Blame Berríos now for doing his job too well and disrupting a tactical flow that had been predetermined, throwing a wrench into the analytical diagnostics. If only he’d given up a couple of runs early, as Kikuchi immediately proceeded to do, the statistical theoreticians would be off the hook.

 

This regime has repeatedly confounded the constituency of baseball lovers. But this time it’s different. This time, the organization has broken faith with its fan base, perhaps irreparably. This time the organization has broken faith with its players. In their own way, cautiously, many of them indicated as much in the immediate aftermath of Wednesday’s elimination, admitted their confusion over the precipitate banishment of Berríos. Although only one, far as I can tell, didn’t hedge his words. “I hated it, frankly,” Whit Merrifield told Mitch Bannon from SI.com. “It’s not what cost us the game, but it’s the kind of baseball decision that are taking away from managers and baseball, at this stage of the game.”

 

Of course, it’s easier to speak truth to power when you’re not coming back.

Toronto has been an immensely forgiving city for the Jays. They abided through decades of mediocrity following the team’s back-to-back World Series championships. They gritted their teeth through ownership upheaval and too many years of threadbare budgets. They withstood the botched tenure of J.P. Ricciardi. They grieved the thunderclap departure of Alex Anthopoulos, orchestrated by Shapiro, who wouldn’t grant his GM the decision-making independence he sought — and had earned.

They even eventually recovered from the calamity of playoff extinguishment by Seattle a year ago, a comedy of managerial errors that flipped an 8-1 lead into a 10-9 loss. An analytics-driven omen there — lifting Kevin Gausman — that would be stunningly, insanely, duplicated last week. Because there’s a manual, an apostle’s creed, collated by the baseball operations department that sets down manage-by-numbers commandments which cleave to metric possibilities. Because they’re the smartest guys in the room. Anonymous smart alecks who worship at the altar of algorithms. And if there were voices in that room that objected — surely there must have been — they were shushed.

Schneider didn’t have the stones to defy his marching orders either, in the moment. I mean, it’s not like Atkins would have fired him midgame.

Every inch of it pre-plotted by the analytics collective as they poured over their flow charts and damn the game that’s happening in real time. Damn Berríos, which is unforgivable. Damn every player who watched this foolish scenario unfold.

 

The fact this lineup was so offensively sluggish, so inept at bringing home runners in scoring position, so brain-cramped running the bases, so boring — all of that is on Atkins for assembling such a weirdly feckless roster, its home-run thump eviscerated by inadvisable trades, its hitting smarts flummoxed by an avalanche of bewildering info.

The inattention to detail, that’s on Schneider for failing to hold delinquents accountable from April to October.

But the essence of this deeply unlikeable team, never embraced by fans, that is on Shapiro. All roads lead to Shapiro. The next road should lead straight out of town.

He gave the analytics department its overriding authority. He entrusted Atkins with qualified domain. He mandated replacing one rookie manager with another. He instilled a doctrine of “process” over results. He ran with the axiom of “collaboration,” which functions as a shield against identifiable culpability.

The Jays were a team in trouble all season long, scraping and scuffling when they were expected to soar. Things never felt quite right. But they’re in far worse straits today, as disappointment segues to rage.

How can Schneider possibly face Berríos again? A tearful Berríos, who said after the game: “I pitched my ass off from the first pitch to the last pitch.”

You didn’t trust me.

How can Schneider allay the bitterness of a pitching staff that played its heart out, starters and bullpen carrying the team on their shoulders, only to be betrayed, scattered to the whims of the dopiest front office in baseball?

How can Atkins salvage trust from his marquee players after the fiasco of Game 2? Or, for that matter, attract free agents to an outfit that has wrought embarrassing disaster two years in a row?

How can Shapiro ever restore the faith of the forsaken faithful?

Send the carpetbagger from Cleveland packing.

[TorontonianJD]

Scathing articles from Toronto media.