Rate Blue Jays Trade Deadline

[Spanky99]

This is just full of doozies. Every time I read it I find another one.

 

Pros:

-Surprisingly he doesn't whine about losing Groshans.

 

Cons:

-Whit Merrifield is merely a "Bradley Zimmer replacement"

-Claiming that a 23 year old A-ball pitcher was one of our best prospects. Buddy, if a 23 year old isn't dominating A-Ball then he isn't even a prospect. The Yanks just traded 3 Nick Frasso's and got a half season of slap hitting Benitendi.

-Whines about losing said A-ball pitcher while making no mention of Alex De Jesus who ranks higher than Frasso on some prospect lists.

-Uses literally one stat, strikeouts, to evaluate the entire deadline.

-Claims that Max Castillo is a better strikeout pitcher than Mitch White based upon 20 big league innings for Castillo. (No projection system thinks Castillo will K more than White.)

-Doesn't realize that Bass actually is a strikeout pitcher now because he throws his slider more.

-Makes a big deal out of an extra season of control on Castillo over White but makes no mention of every single player we acquired having multiple seasons of control.

-Makes no mention of it being a seller's market

 

For the foregoing reasons, I'm going to have grade this post as an F for displaying such a heavy lack of knowledge of the game and an overall whiny attitude.

 

Hahahaha... *high-five*

[Solaxys]

Iunno about ranking stuff. B+ prolly? Solid pickups but nothing defining.

 

I liked it.

 

If you break it down and equate values:

Gave up Groshans to get Alex DeJesus

Gave up Frasso/Brito to get Bass/Pop

Gave up Castillo to get White

Gave up Samad Taylor to get Whit Merrifield

 

Looks like trading up to me in every sense - prospects for MLB-proven talent and the prospect : prospect is a wash

Edited August 3, 2022 by Solaxys

[glory]

I can't give it an A because the team didn't add any real difference making talent, but I think a B is probably fair.

 

While the Jays didn't get any sexy pick ups, I think they are in a position where you can't really pinpoint a significant weakness on the roster. A bench of Merrifield/Tapia/Biggio is solid. The bullpen lacks top end late inning guys, but Pop, Bass, and White replacing Richards, Thornton, etc, is going to limit the amount of suckage in the pen. I guess if you want to be disappointed at something it is rolling with Stripling/Kikuchi as the 4/5 starters, but Strip has been great this season, and Kikuchi is their project for the next couple of years so they were going to run him out there regardless. Just have to hope everyone stays healthy because the depth options after White are terrifying (Hatch better not start another game). I'm not the biggest Max Castillo fan, but yes it would have been nice to hold on to him while adding White just to spread the depth out a little bit.

[Deadpool]

B

 

Mostly because I feel that this team had few needs, and they were filled adequately. The worst bullpen arms were replaced by considerably better arms, they got some starting depth (though moving Castillo makes that sort of lateral), and I guess Merrifield has some value to this team, particularly if it lets them punt Zimmer.

 

Nothing sexy, but I still think this team is a very legitimate World Series contender.

[Sorrow]

I'm in the B category. Ross raised the floor for the team which isn't a bad move. Got some Springer insurance in Merrifield and a better 2B option for 23 than Espinal or Biggio, also opens up moving a corner OF over the winter.

 

Every player acquired has control for next season and beyond which is nice as well.

 

I trust the front office on their prospect assessment. The only prospects this FO have traded that haven't cratered are SWR and Wincowski.

[Pendleton]

B or B+, some solid upgrades in needed areas and I'm absolutely fine with the cost. Reason to believe guys like Pop and White can produce greater results moving forward with the help of the development/performance team here.

[TwistedLogic]

lol... f***ing fool

 

Oh no, I'm back on the Spankster's shitlist because of one comment where I didn't immediately fellate Ross Atkins for having an abysmal trade deadline. What will I ever do now?

 

Hahahaha... *high-five*

 

lmao wow, that lemming really still has a stick up its ass because it was blocked and can't handle it. It's been months loser, learn to cope.

[BigCecil]

C

 

- Deadline told me FO are ok with burning another core yr and making some tweaks because our competition was better, and paid a high price to get even better.

 

- The Farm is not valued as high by others as some of us value it. Its easy to rationalize selling the farm - Groshans, Martin, SWR, Gunner etc in hindsight, but there was a time they were thought to be future roster contributors by the same FO. Hoping unsold Morero, Martinez and Tiedemann develop higher value, as well as some more unheralded names.

 

- Our pen is better. Still lacks swing and miss/V, but it is better. No impact SP or LHH. Castillo deal is kind of a wash.

 

- Merrifield is depth for Springer who could miss a lot of time. We just don't know yet. Wish he was LH and not on the decline but he is a competent upgrade over Zim.

[Laika]

B for sure

 

Most reasons have been stated but this was a pretty tough deadline environment. Seller's market with some big blockbusters holding everything up.

 

So the best illustration is probably comparing the Effross deal to the White deal. I think Wesneski and Frasso are comparable, with the value edge to Wesneski.

 

For Wesneski the Yankees got a pop up reliever having a great year, with 5 years of control.

 

For Frasso the Jays got White, who appears to be a viable SP, and has 5 years of control.

White is a guy who had some great MiLB numbers, made some top 100 lists, has been rated highly in the past by stuff metrics.

 

But Toronto didn't just get White, they got a hitting prospect from the Dodgers top 30. So they downgraded (slightly?) from Frasso --> De Jesus to get White. I'm not sure the 4th player in the deal is relevant at all.

 

Toronto's trade just seems way better than the Yankees' more aggressively timed move.

 

Toronto was patient and deliberate and got as much bang for their buck as possible, I think.

 

I don't like the Merrifield trade all that much. It kind of feels like he's cooked and Castro had a present day function as decent pitching depth. That may have been an impulse move they didn't really want to make.

 

I really like the Bass/Pop/Groshans trade upon reflection. I think they got quite a bit of value for Groshans when you look at Pop's stuff and potential and consider Bass' current production and cheap 2023 option.

 

I like that Toronto went "off the board" with some acquisitions, it shows they were super exploratory and left no stone unturned.

 

I like that they didn't submit to the stupid meme about getting more swing and miss in the pen. Good pitchers are what matters; whiffs are just one means to an end.

[John_Havok]

B

 

Team floor overall is better, bench is better, pen is better - though neither is better monumentally. These are smaller type of moves but still move the needle the right way without losing any top end prospects.

 

Didn’t get anyone elite though so can’t give it an A

[Brownie19]

I tend to agree with you Laika. I think the concerns with Springer's elbow force their hand to acquire someone who could play CF. Merrifield might be cooked, but he's been solid since a horrible May and adds depth to the bench.

 

I've asked this before, but never received a true response, so I'll ask it again. All I keep hearing is how the Jays didn't add swing and miss - why do we talk about swing and miss instead of K%? Are pitchers who get swing and miss instead of pitchers who get called strikes more valuable?

[guylaroche5]

C+

 

I liked all the moves and had no issues with them, I just wish there were more, particularly to address the pen.

[Sorrow]

We all forget the best part of the Groshans deal, that coming to us PTBNL which is never a bad player. Heck it could be Groshans!

[TwistedLogic]

I don't like the Merrifield trade all that much. It kind of feels like he's cooked and Castro had a present day function as decent pitching depth. That may have been an impulse move they didn't really want to make.

 

I really like the Bass/Pop/Groshans trade upon reflection. I think they got quite a bit of value for Groshans when you look at Pop's stuff and potential and consider Bass' current production and cheap 2023 option.

 

I agree on both of these points. I think the Merrifield trade was an over-correction to not getting Happ. I also do really like the Marlins deal because I think Groshans is a total bum.

[TwistedLogic]

I tend to agree with you Laika. I think the concerns with Springer's elbow force their hand to acquire someone who could play CF. Merrifield might be cooked, but he's been solid since a horrible May and adds depth to the bench.

 

I've asked this before, but never received a true response, so I'll ask it again. All I keep hearing is how the Jays didn't add swing and miss - why do we talk about swing and miss instead of K%? Are pitchers who get swing and miss instead of pitchers who get called strikes more valuable?

 

I can't speak for others but I am mentioning swing-and-miss because that is the exact buzzword that Atkins used all season when describing their issues with the pen.

 

And yes, swing-and-miss is the most valuable trait a pitcher can have because you a) aren't at the mercy of the umpires, aren't at the mercy of your defense and c) it's a skill that is a direct reflection of how dominant you are versus hitters.

 

You can have the best defense in the world and still lose Game 7 of the world series on Chapman fumbling a grounder sniped to third. Elite swing-and-miss relievers are not appreciated enough by this fanbase because this team has such a scarce history of employing them. Roberto Osuna is the last guy I can think of that gave me zero stress when coming into a game. I don't even remember who the last guy was before that.

[DigitalRock]

Not sure why folks are Yosef, the teams window just started, the yanks and dodgers have gone all in, not the year to go all in, they improved without giving up much, got guys under control

[Spanky99]

Oh no, I'm back on the Spankster's shitlist because of one comment where I didn't immediately fellate Ross Atkins for having an abysmal trade deadline. What will I ever do now?

 

Shitlist, lol. You're entitled to your grading or thought process on the deadline, I find it fairly egregious, sure, but that's not what my comment was about. I'm sick of listening to you tools and the anti-vax comments, not to mention they rarely if ever get deleted for that viewpoint for some reason, it's the guy's f***ing choice, his very right.

[TwistedLogic]

You're entitled to your grading or thought process on the deadline, I find it fairly egregious, sure, but that's not what my comment was about. I'm sick of listening to you tools and the anti-vax comments, not to mention they rarely if ever get deleted for that viewpoint for some reason, it's the guy's f***ing choice, his very right.

 

I don't care about his vax status and I have almost never commented on COVID/vaccines on this forum because I'm not bored enough with my life to waste time debating science with sports fans. So don't f***ing lump me in with the people you're tired of arguing with.

 

I don't care if Whit is vaxed or not and I don't care if it's his choice or not. He can make his choices and I can think he is an absolute moron for them and that can be the extent of it.

 

The guy literally said he would reconsider his stance on vaccines if he was playing for a contender. He is a f***ing moron sportsballer with no conviction. I find that more offensive than his vax status itself.

[Brownie19]

I can't speak for others but I am mentioning swing-and-miss because that is the exact buzzword that Atkins used all season when describing their issues with the pen.

 

And yes, swing-and-miss is the most valuable trait a pitcher can have because you a) aren't at the mercy of the umpires, aren't at the mercy of your defense and c) it's a skill that is a direct reflection of how dominant you are versus hitters.

 

You can have the best defense in the world and still lose Game 7 of the world series on Chapman fumbling a grounder sniped to third. Elite swing-and-miss relievers are not appreciated enough by this fanbase because this team has such a scarce history of employing them. Roberto Osuna is the last guy I can think of that gave me zero stress when coming into a game. I don't even remember who the last guy was before that.

 

Sorry - I should have clarified and would appreciate your view on this. I understand and agree with what you've suggested. Balls in play are bad. I'm talking about whether we value swinging strikes over actual K% results.

 

Pitcher A has a K/9 rate of 10.0 and a swinging strike % of 26%

Pitcher B has a K/9 rate of 10.0 and a swinging strike % of 35%

 

Is Pitcher B more valuable than Pitcher A because of the swinging strike %? or do I just care about the K% results?

 

What about this situation

 

Pitcher A has a K/9 rate of 11.5 and a swinging strike % of 26%

Pitcher B has a K/9 rate of 9.5 and a swinging strike % of 35%

 

Would we rather have Pitcher A or Pitcher B (assuming everything else is similar)?

 

I believe our bullpen ranks 18th in K/9, but only 26th overall in swinging strike % (I may be a little off with those). We add Bass, who's K/9 is >9 and the narrative is still that his swinging strike % is only 2 points over league average. Just curious and trying to understand it.

[Laika]

I tend to agree with you Laika. I think the concerns with Springer's elbow force their hand to acquire someone who could play CF. Merrifield might be cooked, but he's been solid since a horrible May and adds depth to the bench.

 

I've asked this before, but never received a true response, so I'll ask it again. All I keep hearing is how the Jays didn't add swing and miss - why do we talk about swing and miss instead of K%? Are pitchers who get swing and miss instead of pitchers who get called strikes more valuable?

 

No, but whiffs are just a more reliable and repeatable skill.

 

This goes back to command vs. stuff

 

On any given pitch command is more important. But in the aggregate stuff tends to be more important because it's way more repeatable. Almost nobody can place a pitch exactly where they want it all the time, but there are guys who can get that spin on their fastball every time they throw it and guys who can execute that splitter with 95% success.

 

So when you are acquiring players, and projecting players, you will tend to care more about stuff. And loosely speaking stuff is going to = whiffs.

 

But yes when measuring pitcher results (not projecting) which I guess you can call skill, you can and should just use CSW.

[TwistedLogic]

Sorry - I should have clarified and would appreciate your view on this. I understand and agree with what you've suggested. Balls in play are bad. I'm talking about whether we value swinging strikes over actual K% results.

 

Pitcher A has a K/9 rate of 10.0 and a swinging strike % of 26%

Pitcher B has a K/9 rate of 10.0 and a swinging strike % of 35%

 

Is Pitcher B more valuable than Pitcher A because of the swinging strike %? or do I just care about the K% results?

 

What about this situation

 

Pitcher A has a K/9 rate of 11.5 and a swinging strike % of 26%

Pitcher B has a K/9 rate of 9.5 and a swinging strike % of 35%

 

Would we rather have Pitcher A or Pitcher B (assuming everything else is similar)?

 

I believe our bullpen ranks 18th in K/9, but only 26th overall in swinging strike % (I may be a little off with those). We add Bass, who's K/9 is >9 and the narrative is still that his swinging strike % is only 2 points over league average. Just curious and trying to understand it.

 

Laika just gave you a great response on this, but yes, I would take the guy getting more whiffs every time. Like Laika said, it's a more reliable and repeatable skill (like plate discipline for hitters).

[Spanky99]

I don't care about his vax status and I have almost never commented on COVID/vaccines on this forum because I'm not bored enough with my life to waste time debating science with sports fans. So don't f***ing lump me in with the people you're tired of arguing with.

 

I don't care if Whit is vaxed or not and I don't care if it's his choice or not. He can make his choices and I can think he is an absolute moron for them and that can be the extent of it.

 

The guy literally said he would reconsider his stance on vaccines if he was playing for a contender. He is a f***ing moron sportsballer with no conviction. I find that more offensive than his vax status itself.

 

You literally called him an *anti-vax idiot* these type of under handed insults are what I'm talking about, you've done it in the past. As for the rest, I don't buy it simply from that comment. The forum is against arguing over vaccine status, supposedly, again it's the comment in which led me to calling you a fool, and that's about the extent of it, lol.

[Laika]

Sorry - I should have clarified and would appreciate your view on this. I understand and agree with what you've suggested. Balls in play are bad. I'm talking about whether we value swinging strikes over actual K% results.

 

Pitcher A has a K/9 rate of 10.0 and a swinging strike % of 26%

Pitcher B has a K/9 rate of 10.0 and a swinging strike % of 35%

 

Is Pitcher B more valuable than Pitcher A because of the swinging strike %? or do I just care about the K% results?

 

What about this situation

 

Pitcher A has a K/9 rate of 11.5 and a swinging strike % of 26%

Pitcher B has a K/9 rate of 9.5 and a swinging strike % of 35%

 

Would we rather have Pitcher A or Pitcher B (assuming everything else is similar)?

 

I believe our bullpen ranks 18th in K/9, but only 26th overall in swinging strike % (I may be a little off with those). We add Bass, who's K/9 is >9 and the narrative is still that his swinging strike % is only 2 points over league average. Just curious and trying to understand it.

 

This basically depends on their length of track records, and projections. You pick the guy with the better projected results, easy!

[TwistedLogic]

Also, it should be noted that it's possible these arguments aren't ageless and become outdated fairly soon. The moment ABS is implemented, we will have a new world of pitching and strike zone analysis. Maybe at that point, elite control guys will be more comparable from a value and projection standpoint to great whiff guys.

 

I'll probably always still lean towards whiffs, but it would be a lot closer between the two forms of strikes at that point for me than it is now.

 

Edit: And to add one last thing, elite whiff tools aren't always bulletproof. There are rare outliers like Kevin Gausman's splitter getting Monstar'd for a bit earlier this year where you're tipping or something and suddenly guys aren't biting on the pitch that butters your bread.

[TwistedLogic]

You literally called him an *anti-vax idiot* these type of under handed insults are what I'm talking about, you've done it in the past. As for the rest, I don't buy it simply from that comment. The forum is against arguing over vaccine status, supposedly, again it's the comment in which led me to calling you a fool, and that's about the extent of it, lol.

 

To be clear, I think anyone who is genuinely anti-vax is a f***ing moron. Like, legitimately bottom rung of the human intellect totem pole. But I have no other feelings beyond that. I don't hate those people for feeling the way they do. I'm not passionate about COVID or vaccines. I don't give a s*** if you've gotten the shot or if you don't like masks. I don't engage in COVID debates because I'm not a doctor and it's a waste of time.

 

It is simply an objective observation of mine that anyone who holds real anti-vax beliefs was simply forgotten by evolution and that's okay. I mean it sucks for them, but it doesn't really affect me one way or another.

[polar bear]

An F minus for me.

[jaysblue]

To be clear, I think anyone who is genuinely anti-vax is a f***ing moron. Like, legitimately bottom rung of the human intellect totem pole. But I have no other feelings beyond that. I don't hate those people for feeling the way they do. I'm not passionate about COVID or vaccines. I don't give a s*** if you've gotten the shot or if you don't like masks. I don't engage in COVID debates because I'm not a doctor and it's a waste of time.

 

It is simply an objective observation of mine that anyone who holds real anti-vax beliefs was simply forgotten by evolution and that's okay. I mean it sucks for them, but it doesn't really affect me one way or another.

 

I'm sure many posters on here don't care what you think about the issue. If you think they're morons, just keep it to yourself. Keep it baseball related and don't make it personal. Not sure why you care about what others do with their own bodies anyways.

[Spanky99]

To be clear, I think anyone who is genuinely anti-vax is a f***ing moron. Like, legitimately bottom rung of the human intellect totem pole. But I have no other feelings beyond that. I don't hate those people for feeling the way they do. I'm not passionate about COVID or vaccines. I don't give a s*** if you've gotten the shot or if you don't like masks. I don't engage in COVID debates because I'm not a doctor and it's a waste of time.

 

It is simply an objective observation of mine that anyone who holds real anti-vax beliefs was simply forgotten by evolution and that's okay. I mean it sucks for them, but it doesn't really affect me one way or another.

 

Those are two different things, again, you called the man an anti-vax idiot. Most people that didn't take this vaccine don't trust it for many various reasons, certainly not because they're anti-vax, those people are on another level, anyhow I'm done on the matter, lets move on.

[jaysblue]

Those are two different things, again, you called the man an anti-vax idiot. Most people that didn't take this vaccine, don't trust it for many various reasons, certainly not because they're anti-vax, those people are on another level, anyhow I'm done on the matter, lets move on.

 

If Whitt Merrifield hits a walk-off HR in the World Series or steals home, I'm sure he'll easily forget about it haha.

[Carlos Danger]

I give the Jays trade deadline a B+. The team made very smart fair cost acquisitions and strengthen the club in many different areas and kept all the elite prospects in the system. It's a big plus that every one that was brought in will be able to help the team next year as well.

 

I think the bullpen has been strengthened to a very large degree. Bass has had a monster season as he's 7th in FWAR, 89th percentile in xERA, and had a massive month of July where his k rate shot up to 11.2 K/9. It's nice to see a guy brought in who is actually having a very good season compared to the likes of Brad Hand last season. Pop has a top of the line turbo sinker already, so he's a very high floor pitcher. If he can unlock his slider to a greater degree he could be a true weapon in the future. As is he's like a fireballing version of Adam Cimber who adds another effective option for lower leverage situations. Removing the chaff at the bottom of the roster is huge as we won't be subjected to the likes of Banda, Beasley, Thornton and other assorted subreplacement relievers for the rest of the season.

 

White gives the club a much needed swing man/depth starter option. The team literally had nobody who could give them effective spot starts. Perhaps Castillo could be that guy, but the club didn't really seem to trust him enough to start him at the major league level. It hurts a bit to lose Frasso, but I think the club is beginning to turn around their fortunes when it comes to developing power arms. They added a potential front of the rotation starter this draft, so losing Frasso is a little easier to stomach as both guys are likely many years away from being ready to contribute to the major league squad.

 

The Merriweather addition really strengthens the bench to a large degree. I would have preferred a Benintendi addition, but Merrifield is likely to be far more effective defensively in center field. Having another legitimate bench option other than Tapia is very nice, and this very well may spell an end to Zimmer's time with the club as Merrifield offers the same benefits but with a bat that at least provides some level of utility to a major league squad.

 

So here is the thing about Bass. Not sure if you are aware, but I live in South Florida, until next week anyway when I am moving out to Silicone Valley.. Anyway... I am a closet Marlin's fan and anyone who plays Fantasy with me knows I normally hoard or go after Marlin's pitchers like a fat kid after cake.

 

Pop was in discussions for the closer role in the off season. Then it was decided Bass would be the closer to start the year. Bass unfortunatley really sucked as the closer and lost the role.. Some guys just don't have the make up to be closer types.. Bass is good and has thrived in the 7th, 6th, etc.. That is fine, he is def an improvment on 3-4 RPs we had until yesterday. However, I wanted to see and I think we needed another closer type. Pop is not yet ready IMO.... Maybe he would do ok.. But a crap shoot...

 

If Romano goes down tomorrow/tonight.. Our pen does not look good/competitive for a close stretch/playoff series...

 

That is my issue with the Bass/Pop trade in totatality, when you factor they did not get anyone else to compliment late innings..