GDT: 1/4 Toronto Blue Jays @ Cleveland Guardians

[Jays24]

Okay so Teo, went 2-4, a Dinger a BB and a SB, played all nine innings in RF... he's ready, I'd expect him in our line-up tomorrow night.

 

Ya this is annoying. A rusty Teo is immensely better than the crap we're putting out in the field.

[Stangstag]

JF may have over exaggerated a bit on Berrios but he’s a frustrating pitcher, always has been. Looks like he’s going to take the next step then gets lit up, rinse and repeat.. settles in at 4 ERA/FIP which he’ll probably be at come AS break.. super valuable as durable as iron horse.. but gotta deal with roller coaster a bit

 

Yeah he’s more Mark Buehrle than Max Scherzer. Not necessarily a bad thing, he’s just not really Ace/#1 quality.

[Krylian]

Yeah he’s more Mark Buehrle than Max Scherzer. Not necessarily a bad thing, he’s just not really Ace/#1 quality.

 

Did people actually view him as a #1? Maybe that's the problem. He should've never been labelled as a #1 in the first place.

[Stangstag]

Did people actually view him as a #1? Maybe that's the problem. He should've never been labelled as a #1 in the first place.

 

Yes. Guaranteed you will have some posters come and argue he’s an ace in a few minutes.

[Jimcanuck]

Yes. Guaranteed you will have some posters come and argue he’s an ace in a few minutes.

 

No poster has ever argued he's an ace. A #1 or #1B starter, yes, but not an ace.

 

He's the #1 starter on at least half of MLB teams.

 

So many reactionary posts. Look at his body of work!

 

Gausman has been pitching like an ace, that may or may not continue. It is very likely that at some point during the season, Berrios will pitch like an ace for several games.

[Krylian]

Yes. Guaranteed you will have some posters come and argue he’s an ace in a few minutes.

 

I don't know...I've always viewed Berrios as a #2 on a championship team.

[Spanky99]

Holy f***, guys...

 

https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=pit&lg=all&qual=y&type=8&season=2022&month=0&season1=2017&ind=0&team=&rost=&age=&filter=&players=&startdate=&enddate=

[Stangstag]

Holy f***, guys...

 

https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=pit&lg=all&qual=y&type=8&season=2022&month=0&season1=2017&ind=0&team=&rost=&age=&filter=&players=&startdate=&enddate=

 

His value is tied to his health and amount of innings he’s pitched, much like Mark Buehrle.

 

Gotta stop quoting cumulative WAR totals, he’s not better than a lot of the pitchers below him on that list that have only been around for a couple seasons (Bieber, Burnes) or guys that have had injuries (Strasburg, Severino, Paxton, Syndergaard, Flaherty, etc)

[Laika]

And Berrios is on a 7 year contract, not a 1 year deal.

 

lols

[Benito]

His value is tied to his health and amount of innings he’s pitched, much like Mark Buehrle.

 

Gotta stop quoting cumulative WAR totals, he’s not better than a lot of the pitchers below him on that list that have only been around for a couple seasons (Bieber, Burnes) or guys that have had injuries (Strasburg, Severino, Paxton, Syndergaard, Flaherty, etc)

 

He's had 1 200 IP season. His innings pitched is in line with others on that list. Maybe Jose is just good?

[Laika]

Berrios haters should just say "Berrios is not an SP1 and does not have 6 WAR+ upside" and leave it at that.

 

That's fair and true.

 

The Mark Buehrle comparison is weird but kind of great if you just focus on WAR and ignore K numbers.

Can even argue (convincingly) that Buehrle is better haha.

[Stangstag]

He's had 1 200 IP season. His innings pitched is in line with others on that list. Maybe Jose is just good?

 

Of course he's good, I never said he wasn't. If you click on that fangraphs link Spanky posted and sort by innings pitched, Berrios is #6. He's a workhorse and that's valuable.

 

I just don't consider him an "Ace". Like if there was a mock fantasy draft of just starting pitchers, he's definitely not in the top 20.

 

But anyways, we're just arguing about the term "Ace" which we clearly have different opinions on.

[Stangstag]

Berrios haters should just say "Berrios is not an SP1 and does not have 6 WAR+ upside" and leave it at that.

 

That's fair and true.

 

The Mark Buehrle comparison is weird but kind of great if you just focus on WAR and ignore K numbers.

Can even argue (convincingly) that Buehrle is better haha.

 

Don't label me as a hater plz. I liked the trade and love the contract. He's a great fixture for the rotation as a #2/3 guy.

[wilko]

don't label me as a hater plz. I liked the trade and love the contract. He's a great fixture for the rotation as a #2/3 guy.

 

he's a #1!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Benito]

Of course he's good, I never said he wasn't. If you click on that fangraphs link Spanky posted and sort by innings pitched, Berrios is #6. He's a workhorse and that's valuable.

 

I just don't consider him an "Ace". Like if there was a mock fantasy draft of just starting pitchers, he's definitely not in the top 20.

 

But anyways, we're just arguing about the term "Ace" which we clearly have different opinions on.

 

He averages 6 IP/start. I don't really consider that workhorse. I don't consider him an Ace either, but how many aces are there really? Jose's value is provided by his ability to limit walks, and average a SO/IP. His stuff is good. His durability is definitely an asset, but I think it disingenuous to insinuate the bulk of his value is attributed to innings pitched.

[M.E.]

he's a #1!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

He is currently a #3 on this team with Gausman and Manoah ahead of him. I'm Ok with that.

[JuniorFelix54]

he's a #1!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

lmao, he pitches like a pile of #2 more often than he pitches like a #1

[TwistedLogic]

If that was strictly the case no manager could ever be blamed for anything.

 

Agreed. Managers are glorified mascots, blaming them for things is dumn. If the front office doesn't like how a manager is managing the game, they should intervene or they should fire them or they should replace them with a saber dork from their analytics department.

 

Why should I rag on the bongo guy instead of the group of people with degrees and decades of analytical experience that put him in place and continue to endorse him? If Montoyo is truly unqualified for his role, then it's not his fault he's in that position.

[Omar]

Agreed. Managers are glorified mascots, blaming them for things is dumn. If the front office doesn't like how a manager is managing the game, they should intervene or they should fire them or they should replace them with a saber dork from their analytics department.

 

Why should I rag on the bongo guy instead of the group of guys with degrees and decades of analytical experience that put him in place and continue to endorse him? If Montoyo is truly unqualified for his role, then it's not his fault he's in that position.

 

Doesn't absolve them from dumb game time decisions. It just kicks the can down the road. In every field of endeavor some are just better than others. I disagree that they are just mascots. I would rather have Tito in the dugout over Montoyo. I think most would.

[wilko]

He averages 6 IP/start. I don't really consider that workhorse. I don't consider him an Ace either, but how many aces are there really? Jose's value is provided by his ability to limit walks, and average a SO/IP. His stuff is good. His durability is definitely an asset, but I think it disingenuous to insinuate the bulk of his value is attributed to innings pitched.

 

I think that label is because he never misses starts and usually puts in 6IP which is "workhorse" in these days. He's a solid #2/3 on a good team.

[connorp]

He is currently a #3 on this team with Gausman and Manoah ahead of him. I'm Ok with that.

 

1/2

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

3

[Spanky99]

His value is tied to his health and amount of innings he’s pitched, much like Mark Buehrle.

 

Gotta stop quoting cumulative WAR totals, he’s not better than a lot of the pitchers below him on that list that have only been around for a couple seasons (Bieber, Burnes) or guys that have had injuries (Strasburg, Severino, Paxton, Syndergaard, Flaherty, etc)

 

Why would I stop posting cumulative WAR totals, I'm not saying he's our Ace? lol... I'm posting his value to the team, this team has 3 great pitchers. It's a 1A/1B/1C situation and we're fine. Every year he's easily in the top 20. Last night he didn't have his wipeout slider, it happens. It was most likely because of the cold and rain. It's seriously that simple.

 

He's in the tier below the handful of elite ACES in the MLB and it's right there in his numbers. Telling me to stop posting MLB leaderboards in the MLB, is pretty dumn, mate.

[Stangstag]

Why would I stop posting cumulative WAR totals, I'm not saying he's our Ace? lol... I'm posting his value to the team, this team has 3 great pitchers. It's a 1A/1B/1C situation and we're fine. Every year he's easily in the top 20. Last night he didn't have his wipeout slider, it happens. It was most likely because of the cold and rain. It's seriously that simple.

 

He's in the tier below the handful of elite ACES in the MLB and it's right there in his numbers. Telling me to stop posting MLB leaderboards in the MLB, is pretty dumn, mate.

 

I agree

[JuniorFelix54]

Why would I stop posting cumulative WAR totals, I'm not saying he's our Ace? lol... I'm posting his value to the team, this team has 3 great pitchers. It's a 1A/1B/1C situation and we're fine. Every year he's easily in the top 20. Last night he didn't have his wipeout slider, it happens. It was most likely because of the cold and rain. It's seriously that simple.

 

He's in the tier below the handful of elite ACES in the MLB and it's right there in his numbers. Telling me to stop posting MLB leaderboards in the MLB, is pretty dumn, mate.

 

3 great pitchers?? lmao, and you continually try to tell me I'm the clueless one. 5.34 ERA and 1.64 WHIP with only 20K's in 29 innings but hey his WAR is 10,000 so he's a SUPERSTAR!!!!

[JFD]

Playing in the rain again?

 

edit:

[Spanky99]

3 great pitchers?? lmao, and you continually try to tell me I'm the clueless one. 5.34 ERA and 1.64 WHIP with only 20K's in 29 innings but hey his WAR is 10,000 so he's a SUPERSTAR!!!!

 

Yeah, you're going on the IL, it was fun for a while telling you how dumb you are, but it's become old hat now, f*** you, troglodyte.

 

[Stangstag]

Yeah, you're going on the IL, it was fun for a while telling you how dumb you are, but it's become old hat now, f*** you, troglodyte.

 

 

It will be nice when enough people have him on the IL and I don’t have to read his quote tweets anymore

[Omar]

3 great pitchers?? lmao, and you continually try to tell me I'm the clueless one. 5.34 ERA and 1.64 WHIP with only 20K's in 29 innings but hey his WAR is 10,000 so he's a SUPERSTAR!!!!

 

How many teams are there league wide where Gausman, Manoah and Berrios couldn't crack the starting rotation? Yeah that's what I thought. Also since when is "tier below the handful of elite ACES" equal to superstar?

 

You should re-read Spankys post so you don't end up arguing against points he never made.

[Eat My Shatkins]

Yeah, you're going on the IL, it was fun for a while telling you how dumb you are, but it's become old hat now, f*** you, troglodyte.

 

 

How many teams are there league wide where Gausman, Manoah and Berrios couldn't crack the starting rotation? Yeah that's what I thought. Also since when is "tier below the handful of elite ACES" equal to superstar?

 

You should re-read Spankys post so you don't end up arguing against points he never made.

 

 

 

You guys are arguing with a complete idiot.

 

You might as well take a s*** on the floor and try to argue with that.

[Spanky99]

Playing in the rain again?

 

edit:

 

Game's been PPD along with 3 other games in the East Coast, ah well, double header tomorrow.