General Blue Jays Discussion Thread (2022)

[Eat My Shatkins]

Teams use an average of 10 different SP over the course of a season. Stripling is best used out of the bullpen and as SP depth.

 

OK, so the Jays can add more starting pitching depth then.

 

It's hardly critical that they go out and spend big (Moreno/Kirk/Groshans/etc) for another top of the rotation starter.

[Dagagad]

Right now, which is kind of a useless thing to say because it’s so far away from the deadline, our needs are all relatively minor.

 

We need another stripling type deal (or two) another couple of relievers and maybe a left handed bat.

 

We probably could use a really good swing and miss reliever or two but I don’t think this front office will do that. That’s not a criticism but the way they approach the bullpen in the off-season and in trades last year tells me that they consider it an area where it’s counter productive to put tons of assets in.

 

So, I don’t see any deal that would require a Kirk, Moreno or Jansen to get it done out there. Unless someone unexpected with multiple years of control is available at the deadline, I don’t see the point.

 

The goal is just to make the playoffs and then spin the wheel. We seem on path to make the playoffs as it is.

[gruber92]

I see Shatkins going after or sticking with the plus hit tool types, so Kirk and Moreno aren't going anywhere anytime soon.

[Jimcanuck]

OK, so the Jays can add more starting pitching depth then.

 

It's hardly critical that they go out and spend big (Moreno/Kirk/Groshans/etc) for another top of the rotation starter.

 

It should be expected that one or more of Gausman, Berrios, Manoah, Kikuchi will hit the IL for some length of time.

 

I never said anything about a top of rotation starter. One of Moreno or Kirk should get both a #3-4 SP and a high leverage reliever.

[Eat My Shatkins]

It should be expected that one or more of Gausman, Berrios, Manoah, Kikuchi will hit the IL.

 

I never said anything about a top of rotation starter. One of Moreno or Kirk should get both a #3-4 SP and a high leverage reliever.

 

It's still not "critical", which is what you did say.

 

We don't need to subtract from our starting position players, or our high end prospect capital to keep adding above average starting pitchers just because injuries might happen.

 

That was my whole entire original point

[Dagagad]

It should be expected that one or more of Gausman, Berrios, Manoah, Kikuchi will hit the IL for some length of time.

 

I never said anything about a top of rotation starter. One of Moreno or Kirk should get both a #3-4 SP and a high leverage reliever.

 

You could probably get a #3/4 starter and a reliever for Jansen and not have to lose all that control for Kirk and Moreno.

 

I’m definitely not selling Moreno in anything less than a blockbuster. Teams don’t really make those kinds of trades using top prospects any more.

[Eat My Shatkins]

You could probably get a #3/4 starter and a reliever for Jansen and not have to lose all that control for Kirk and Moreno.

 

But why?

 

What if you do that, then Kirk gets injured and Moreno struggles to adjust to MLB pitching?

 

There is no rush to trade anyone right now.

 

The team is solid everywhere except for depth SP, bench OF and high leverage relief (which is a crapshoot anyways).

[Eat My Shatkins]

You could probably get a #3/4 starter and a reliever for Jansen and not have to lose all that control for Kirk and Moreno.

 

But why?

 

What if you do that, then Kirk gets injured and Moreno struggles to adjust to MLB pitching?

 

There is no rush to trade anyone right now.

 

The team is solid everywhere except for depth SP, bench OF and high leverage relief (which is a crapshoot anyways).

[Eat My Shatkins]

lol what the f*** is going on with the forum lately?

[Dagagad]

But why?

 

What if you do that, then Kirk gets injured and Moreno struggles to adjust to MLB pitching?

 

There is no rush to trade anyone right now.

 

The team is solid everywhere except for depth SP, bench OF and high leverage relief (which is a crapshoot anyways).

 

I agree honestly. I wouldn’t trade any of the three this year either.

 

I was just saying that that was too high a price.

 

There might be an argument that selling Jansen now is selling at the height of his value. If you could pull off a Willy Adames type trade for him where you get cheap high leverage with control…. It might help us more in the next 3/4 years than Jansen.

 

What’s the point of having a high payroll if you have to do stuff like that though. The rays have to do that for a reason. We don’t necessarily have to chase every edge. And catchers aren’t shortstops in terms of pitcher chemistry.

 

Edit: I don’t necessarily think high leverage relief is a crap shoot over the long term. Teams that can develop pitchers and emphasize stuff tend to have good pens year in year out (or at least most years). Tampa put a lot of resources into it to achieve that.

 

Judging by our strikeout numbers in the minors this year, I think we might get there in a year or two.

[JFD]

Not a fan of trading a catcher with an elite bat and cannon arm. Especially for a 3-4 starter ffs.. yeesh

[Jimcanuck]

lol what the f*** is going on with the forum lately?

 

the owner Juiced needs to upgrade to the latest platform but is a notoriously lazy person

[Jimcanuck]

The loss of Ryu does create an SP need. Whether it happens this month or next a move will happen.

 

Stripling as an SP significantly weakens the bullpen and results in essentially zero SP depth.

[Jonn]

I don’t think they should trade any of the Catchers at the moment. Its bold to assume Moreno would make an instant impact at the Major League level. No reason to even touch him right now. Kirk is not only a competent Second Catcher hes our best option at DH at the moment. So trading from that strength for middle to back of the rotation starter sounds like a lateral move.

 

I would be much more interested in trading Moreno in a larger deal for a much more impactful player (star) considering the catching situation is already good. But I don’t see that kind of move happening.

[Eat My Shatkins]

The loss of Ryu does create an SP need. Whether it happens this month or next a move will happen.

 

Stripling as an SP significantly weakens the bullpen and results in essentially zero SP depth.

 

I think it'll depend largely on what Pearson does in his return. He's a real wild card right now

[Jimcanuck]

I think it'll depend largely on what Pearson does in his return. He's a real wild card right now

 

With a pitch / innings limit. Even if he does have some starts, he's probably capped at 4 IP / start.

[Eat My Shatkins]

With a pitch / innings limit. Even if he does have some starts, he's probably capped at 4 IP / start.

 

Agreed, could be a perfect long relief replacement for Strip now that he's back in the rotation

 

Or could be back on the IL in another week or so

 

Wild card indeed

[Jimcanuck]

I don’t think they should trade any of the Catchers at the moment. Its bold to assume Moreno would make an instant impact at the Major League level. No reason to even touch him right now. Kirk is not only a competent Second Catcher hes our best option at DH at the moment. So trading from that strength for middle to back of the rotation starter sounds like a lateral move.

 

I would be much more interested in trading Moreno in a larger deal for a much more impactful player (star) considering the catching situation is already good. But I don’t see that kind of move happening.

 

My original post on this discussion said that I hope Moreno comes up soon, see if he can handle MLB pitching (it would be SSS but still).

 

There's no way the Jays go into 2023 with Jansen, Kirk, Moreno on the team. Unless Moreno converts to 2B or 3B, at least one of them and often two of them sit every game which is not optimal.

 

If there are needs now, the smart thing is to deal one of the three.

[Dagagad]

It’s only smart if it’s an appropriate price to pay. Teams don’t usually trade top ten prospects for number 3/4 starters and relievers.

 

The only one you might do that with is Jansen and even then might be an overpay depending on how much control is coming back.

[connorp]

It's still not "critical", which is what you did say.

 

We don't need to subtract from our starting position players, or our high end prospect capital to keep adding above average starting pitchers just because injuries might happen.

 

That was my whole entire original point

 

Tomato tomoto bro. If Manoah or Gausman goes down, it’s suddenly critical. So instead of finding yourself in that pinch, one could say it’s critical to improve depth so you’re not scrambling for it later (possibly to no avail)

[connorp]

Having another solid SP would not be a bad thing even if nobody gets hurt. Berrios is a coin flip at best right now, and Kooch is what you could reasonably hope for but not the kind on guy you feel great about as the playoff #4 SP

[Dagagad]

Having another solid SP would not be a bad thing even if nobody gets hurt. Berrios is a coin flip at best right now, and Kooch is what you could reasonable hope for but not the kind on guy you feel great about as the playoff #4 SP

 

What level of starting pitcher are we talking about?

[connorp]

What level of starting pitcher are we talking about?

 

Depends which guy you’re dealing of course. I just think if there’s a chance to “sell high” on Jansen, they should.

[Eat My Shatkins]

Tomato tomoto bro. If Manoah or Gausman goes down, it’s suddenly critical. So instead of finding yourself in that pinch, one could say it’s critical to improve depth so you’re not scrambling for it later (possibly to no avail)

 

Exactly what I said.

 

Add depth SP? Sure.

 

Trade Moreno/Kirk/Jansen for starting pitching? No thanks.

[Jimcanuck]

As far as the return goes, we can trust in Shatkins. I am sure they will find equivalent value in terms of talent, years of control, and a good team fit.

[Dagagad]

Depends which guy you’re dealing of course. I just think if there’s a chance to “sell high” on Jansen, they should.

 

I agree to an extent. Jansen is the one that is the most attractive to trade. However, I worry about pitcher chemistry when we are contending, to make that kind of trade mid season.

 

The other thing is that Jansen has two years more control, which is good but not good enough for a bad team to want him as part of their plan.

 

You need a good team or a borderline team with a surplus of pitching and a need at catcher. That team would probably want to get Contreras instead with prospects rather than use guys they could use now.

[Jonn]

My original post on this discussion said that I hope Moreno comes up soon, see if he can handle MLB pitching (it would be SSS but still).

 

There's no way the Jays go into 2023 with Jansen, Kirk, Moreno on the team. Unless Moreno converts to 2B or 3B, at least one of them and often two of them sit every game which is not optimal.

 

If there are needs now, the smart thing is to deal one of the three.

 

That trade definitely doesn’t need to be made now. Moreno is hitting for a high average but is by no means blowing AAA out the water. He can catch the full season there. You explore that type of trade in the off-season not now. Unless we’re talking about a legit impact player. That’s not back end to middle of the rotation starter.

[Jonn]

Tomato tomoto bro. If Manoah or Gausman goes down, it’s suddenly critical. So instead of finding yourself in that pinch, one could say it’s critical to improve depth so you’re not scrambling for it later (possibly to no avail)

 

You don’t need to trade off your major league roster for Starting depth.

[Jimcanuck]

That trade definitely doesn’t need to be made now. Moreno is hitting for a high average but is by no means blowing AAA out the water. He can catch the full season there. You explore that type of trade in the off-season not now. Unless we’re talking about a legit impact player. That’s not back end to middle of the rotation starter.

 

Depends on years of control. A current 3/4 starter with 5 years of control (essentially a rookie that is performing, with potential to become a #2 or better) would be fine for Moreno.

[Jonn]

Depends on years of control. A current 3/4 starter with 5 years of control (essentially a rookie that is performing, with potential to become a #2 or better) would be fine for Moreno.

 

Those guys aren’t really available though. Teams don’t typically trade pitchers like that. Especially if they already establishing themselves as that kind of pitcher.