2021 Collective Bargaining Agreement Discussion Thread

[Brownie19]

Weird vibes for me on these talks. Lots of guys on here probably too young to remember well 94 and what it cost the Expos. Back then I remember thinking "no way, they wont really do this..." and they did. Will they do it again? f*** I seriously hope not. I'm so excited for this season.

 

With the current media/streaming environment people have so many options for content, I'm not sure baseball recovers as well as it did 94-95. I remember the aftermath of 94 and us all turning a blind eye cheering on guys who suddenly were huge (er) and making 60 home runs common. Everyone kinda knew everyone was juiced but we didnt want to upset the happy vibe. What gets us the avg fan back in the seats and watching at home this time?

 

I was only 13 in '94, so it's all foggy to me, but I always thought some of the roid use was masked simply by an increased focus on workouts and training and athletes treating their sport (and I think this applies for all sports) as a profession and not a game. Gone were the days of players sitting on the couch all offseason, using spring training/training camp to 'get in shape' and that mentality shift (combined with using technology to improve our understanding of the sports and how to improve) is what created a s*** ton more depth within sports. The fact that players were working out and training year round seemed to somewhat support the increase in power/home runs - along with the increase in velocity.

 

From my perspective, there's a been huge transformations across most sports and it feels like that started in the mid '90's to mid '00's. Hockey is now this incredibly fast paces sport built on skill, the depth of field in golf is grown immensely, basketball eliminated the traditional lumbering center, we stopped running the ball up the middle in football 30 times a game, etc.

 

As the advantages that premium athletes became more apparent in all sports, the focus moved to fitness and training - which inherently lead to PED use in all sports.

 

Not exactly sure where I was going with this - and I think the concerns are fair that baseball may struggle to recover from an extended lockout/strike. I think it already is simply because there are so many options these days. At the youth level I can tell you that lacrosse has stolen a ton of kids from the game of baseball and I don't see that changing anytime soon.

[connorp]

Big Mac was pretty slick. Put Andro over-the-counter supplements in his locker for a misdirect lol.

[glory]

Weird vibes for me on these talks. Lots of guys on here probably too young to remember well 94 and what it cost the Expos. Back then I remember thinking "no way, they wont really do this..." and they did. Will they do it again? f*** I seriously hope not. I'm so excited for this season.

 

With the current media/streaming environment people have so many options for content, I'm not sure baseball recovers as well as it did 94-95. I remember the aftermath of 94 and us all turning a blind eye cheering on guys who suddenly were huge (er) and making 60 home runs common. Everyone kinda knew everyone was juiced but we didnt want to upset the happy vibe. What gets us the avg fan back in the seats and watching at home this time?

 

If they end up missing a huge chunk or even all of the season, then I don't think baseball recovers from this. They'll still have fans and loyal local followings, but they'll inch closer to being the NHL in terms of having no national footprint and being strictly a regional/niche sport. If they only miss April, then we'll probably see no significant change since no one cares about baseball in April anyway, but this definitely seems like the type of lockout that will last most of the season, if not all of it.

 

Baseball recovered in the 90s because of the home run chase, but also keep in mind that baseball was a lot more culturally relevant back then so it was easier for something big to bring fans back. In 2021, we saw the modern day Babe Ruth and it barely made a ripple outside of baseball circles. If Ohtani was around in the 90's he would have probably been one of the biggest athletes in America. Baseball over the last 10 or so years has really fallen off the national map, and even if someone were chasing Bonds' single season home run record in a few years (spoiler: no one will), I don't think it would bring the level of attention that the home run chase of 98 did.

[John_Havok]

If they end up missing a huge chunk or even all of the season, then I don't think baseball recovers from this. They'll still have fans and loyal local followings, but they'll inch closer to being the NHL in terms of having no national footprint and being strictly a regional/niche sport. If they only miss April, then we'll probably see no significant change since no one cares about baseball in April anyway, but this definitely seems like the type of lockout that will last most of the season, if not all of it.

 

Baseball recovered in the 90s because of the home run chase, but also keep in mind that baseball was a lot more culturally relevant back then so it was easier for something big to bring fans back. In 2021, we saw the modern day Babe Ruth and it barely made a ripple outside of baseball circles. If Ohtani was around in the 90's he would have probably been one of the biggest athletes in America. Baseball over the last 10 or so years has really fallen off the national map, and even if someone were chasing Bonds' single season home run record in a few years (spoiler: no one will), I don't think it would bring the level of attention that the home run chase of 98 did.

 

I'm sure Manfred has already contacted Rawlings to get those balls juiced up a notch or two.

[Olerud363]

Weird vibes for me on these talks. Lots of guys on here probably too young to remember well 94 and what it cost the Expos. Back then I remember thinking "no way, they wont really do this..." and they did. Will they do it again? f*** I seriously hope not. I'm so excited for this season.

 

With the current media/streaming environment people have so many options for content, I'm not sure baseball recovers as well as it did 94-95. I remember the aftermath of 94 and us all turning a blind eye cheering on guys who suddenly were huge (er) and making 60 home runs common. Everyone kinda knew everyone was juiced but we didnt want to upset the happy vibe. What gets us the avg fan back in the seats and watching at home this time?

 

The thing that will get fans back is the thing that will make the lock-out last a f***ing year.

 

Parity like they have in NFL, NBA, NHL. If any team can win fans will be interested. If teams can keep homegrown players fans will love it. However Union wants NY/LA/Bos to have 300 million payroll and Vladdy to get 450 million 10 year contract.

 

If you constrained that and gave small market teams opportunity to win every year, and keep their homegrown players fans would support it...

[Olerud363]

The thing that will get fans back is the thing that will make the lock-out last a f***ing year.

 

Parity like they have in NFL, NBA, NHL. If any team can win fans will be interested. If teams can keep homegrown players fans will love it. However Union wants NY/LA/Bos to have 300 million payroll and Vladdy to get 450 million 10 year contract.

 

If you constrained that and gave small market teams opportunity to win every year, and keep their homegrown players fans would support it...

 

Players - hello Toronto. We offer a great system where NY gets a 300 million payroll and gets Vladdy (10 years 450 million) after you guys lost almost 2 seasons of him because of Covid and Lockout. Anyway hope you guys love the new floor rule. Sign Grichuk to a 3 year extension to make floor while your favourite players leave for Yankees and LA. We love you. Please support the MLB!

[Olerud363]

Players - hello Toronto. We offer a great system where NY gets a 300 million payroll and gets Vladdy (10 years 450 million) after you guys lost almost 2 seasons of him because of Covid and Lockout. Anyway hope you guys love the new floor rule. Sign Grichuk to a 3 year extension to make floor while your favourite players leave for Yankees and LA. We love you. Please support the MLB!

 

Toronto 2025, Catch the spirit. The great young core is in LA, Boston and NY. but because of the floor you can catch Freddie Galvis, Randall Grichuk, Kevin Pillar, Tanner Roark, Hyun Jin Ryu and Liam Hendricks (old closers are helpful to make floor). These guys will really try to win 70, and if they don't and only win 55 you might get the 7th pick after the lottery.

[Olerud363]

Sorry for the ranting after being quiet for a few months. Just really down on the situation. And I hate the f***ing floor idea as it seems useless for fans.

 

As a fan, if I can't have a contender, I'd much rather have a 55 win team full of lottery tickets, get some high draft picks. I hate 'floor' teams. Reminds me of the 1996/97 Jays with Joe Carter, Benito Santiago, Otis Nixon, Orlando Merced, Garcia... Gord Ash wasn't trying to build a 'floor' but somehow did. Most depressing thing I have ever seen. Floor teams would kill the small markets.

 

This entire floor concept seems to just be a way to get the Randal Grickuk's of the world paid.

[Olerud363]

2013 Jays are another example of what I would see the floor rule producing. Jose Reyes, Bonifacio, the Milk Man. Soul crushing teams and players just to make the artificial floor, with no advantage to short term or long term fan enjoyment.

[John_Havok]

Sorry for the ranting after being quiet for a few months. Just really down on the situation. And I hate the f***ing floor idea as it seems useless for fans.

 

As a fan, if I can't have a contender, I'd much rather have a 55 win team full of lottery tickets, get some high draft picks. I hate 'floor' teams. Reminds me of the 1996/97 Jays with Joe Carter, Benito Santiago, Otis Nixon, Orlando Merced, Garcia... Gord Ash wasn't trying to build a 'floor' but somehow did. Most depressing thing I have ever seen. Floor teams would kill the small markets.

 

This entire floor concept seems to just be a way to get the Randal Grickuk's of the world paid.

 

Maybe, but with revenue sharing the way it is, is it really unreasonable to expect that the Pittsburghs and Tampas of the league who get 10s of millions of dollars in revenue sharing to actually spend a pretty big chunk of it on players? That was the majority intent of revenue sharing to begin with. The poor teams were constantly reminding everyone how they never had enough money to compete for free agents.

 

Enter revenue sharing where they get money for nothing over and above where they were before.

 

Same teams are saying the same things now. Can't afford free agents.

Edited March 2, 2022 by John_Havok

[Brownie19]

Sorry for the ranting after being quiet for a few months. Just really down on the situation. And I hate the f***ing floor idea as it seems useless for fans.

 

As a fan, if I can't have a contender, I'd much rather have a 55 win team full of lottery tickets, get some high draft picks. I hate 'floor' teams. Reminds me of the 1996/97 Jays with Joe Carter, Benito Santiago, Otis Nixon, Orlando Merced, Garcia... Gord Ash wasn't trying to build a 'floor' but somehow did. Most depressing thing I have ever seen. Floor teams would kill the small markets.

 

This entire floor concept seems to just be a way to get the Randal Grickuk's of the world paid.

 

The reality is there's a big difference between what you'd like to see and what the average fan would want - and there's a lot more average fans than guys like you. Teams that are trying to lose on purpose aren't good for any sport and baseball is full of them right now...

[John_Havok]

The reality is there's a big difference between what you'd like to see and what the average fan would want - and there's a lot more average fans than guys like you. Teams that are trying to lose on purpose aren't good for any sport and baseball is full of them right now...

 

I don't think there's any teams actively trying to lose, but they sure aren't doing everything they can to try and win.

[Abomination]

I don't think there's any teams actively trying to lose, but they sure aren't doing everything they can to try and win.

 

The Marlins seem ... suspect (not trying to lose, but not caring if they lose). I'm not sure there's any others though.

[G-Snarls]

MLBTR

 

Stripling: MLB Tried To “Sneak Things” Past Union Late In Negotiations

 

By Steve Adams | March 2, 2022 at 10:18am CDT

 

There’s no indication when the 2022 season will start following a contentious set of labor negotiations that resulted in commissioner Rob Manfred canceling the first two series of the year. The general expectation is that further games are quite likely to be lost as well, given the acrimonious nature of talks to date.

 

On the topic of those negotiations, Blue Jays right-hander Ross Stripling lobbed some fairly eye-opening accusations toward ownership and the manner in which their proposal suddenly changed late in the game. Stripling tells Shi Davidi and Ben Nicholson-Smith of Sportsnet that, as the two sides spoke late Monday evening and into the early hours of Tuesday morning, MLB’s proposal suddenly included notable changes regarding the luxury tax. Stripling implies that the changes extend beyond mere alterations to the threshold levels and penalty rates — instead featuring completely new items that had not been previously presented.

 

“It got to be like 12:30 [in the morning] and the fine print of their CBT proposal was stuff we had never seen before,” says Stripling. “They were trying to sneak things through us, it was like they think we’re dumb baseball players and we get sleepy after midnight or something. … They pushed us to a deadline that they imposed, and then they tried to sneak some s*** past us at that deadline and we were ready for it.”

 

Stripling went on to echo the sentiments broadcast by Giants lefty Alex Wood on Twitter yesterday, wherein Wood claimed that the reported optimism late Monday was “pumped to the media” by Major League Baseball as a public relations strategy. Wood and Stripling maintain that the players’ “tone” never changed Tuesday, as the league claimed via a statement from an anonymous spokesperson. Stripling, Wood, James McCann and several others have publicly stated that the union never felt the sense of optimism broadcast by the league and that MLB’s suggestions of a “change in tone” were an effort to cast blame on players for scuttling a deal at the last minute.

 

Stripling’s comments, to an extent, also mesh with concerns raised by union leader Tony Clark at yesterday’s press conference. Speaking in the wake of Manfred’s cancelation of games, Clark revealed that during the late stages of negotiations, the league sought to enact a series of rule changes for the 2023 season that would see defensive shifts limited, the size of bases expanded and the implementation of a pitch clock. While Clark noted that the players were not necessarily opposed, the fact that MLB raised them so late in the process left the union with little to no time to discuss them — an obvious point of consternation.

 

Stripling is hardly alone in his willingness to speak out and voice his displeasure with the manner in which negotiations transpired. Britt Ghiroli of The Athletic chronicled a series of player frustrations that were broadcast via social media, citing Wood, Evan Longoria, Anthony Rizzo, Michael Lorenzen, Kevin Pillar and others. As Ghiorli examines, the players’ ability to freely speak their minds — and share details like those laid out by Stripling, Wood and others — are fascinating new wrinkles to labor talks that did not exist prior to the social media age. While fans have understandably grown exhausted by the public jabs being traded (whether directly or via reports), the lack of any real momentum regarding a return to play and the general distrust between the parties only sets the stage for further exchanges of this nature.

[Boxcar]

Rob Manfred will go down as the worst commissioner in the history of North American sports. What a travesty of a human being.

[Brownie19]

I don't think there's any teams actively trying to lose, but they sure aren't doing everything they can to try and win.

 

Sorry - I could have used better words. You're right - nobody is trying to lose, but over the past few years I'd say we've had upwards of half the league that certainly isn't trying to win. It did seem a bit better last year, but 2018-2020 wasn't good.

[wilko]

I don't think there's any teams actively trying to lose, but they sure aren't doing everything they can to try and win.

 

The Indians in Major League...

[Olerud363]

The reality is there's a big difference between what you'd like to see and what the average fan would want - and there's a lot more average fans than guys like you. Teams that are trying to lose on purpose aren't good for any sport and baseball is full of them right now...

 

They aren't trying to lose on purpose. They are trying to win 95 games in three or four years. Forcing them to win 70 games now is counter productive and useless.

 

Jays teams of 2017 and 2018 are a great example. Did casual fans really enjoy those teams? Attendance tanked in 2018 because the 2017 team was miserable. Doubt it would have been worse if the 2017 team was gutted and a rebuild started early.

 

"Trying" to win 75 games will be counter productive to the long term health of many franchise. I totally understand if there was a team that just was losing 60 a year for decades and gobbling up competitive balance payments. However I don't believe any team, even the Marlins are doing that.

 

Imagine the Marlins were forced to keep Stanton or Jose Reyes because of payroll floors? Would that of helped them at all?

[G-Snarls]

Sorry - I could have used better words. You're right - nobody is trying to lose, but over the past few years I'd say we've had upwards of half the league that certainly isn't trying to win. It did seem a bit better last year, but 2018-2020 wasn't good.

 

Well there's a divide of course...

 

The players on any team are going to try to win games no matter what, out of competitiveness and pride.

 

However, some front offices are sometimes clearly ensuring the team isn't good enough to win many games and therefore help get better draft picks. Those tear-down Cubs, Astros and Marlins teams were clearly destined to win <70 games and ensure better drafting for a few years. No one can seriously deny that.

 

The questions are 1) Should you penalize teams that do this and 2) should you force such teams to spend money to bring themselves closer to the middle. Is that good for the game/players/fanbases?

[G-Snarls]

They aren't trying to lose on purpose. They are trying to win 95 games in three or four years. Forcing them to win 70 games now is counter productive and useless.

 

Jays teams of 2017 and 2018 are a great example. Did casual fans really enjoy those teams? Attendance tanked in 2018 because the 2017 team was miserable. Doubt it would have been worse if the 2017 team was gutted and a rebuild started early.

 

"Trying" to win 75 games will be counter productive to the long term health of many franchise. I totally understand if there was a team that just was losing 60 a year for decades and gobbling up competitive balance payments. However I don't believe any team, even the Marlins are doing that.

 

Imagine the Marlins were forced to keep Stanton or Jose Reyes because of payroll floors? Would that of helped them at all?

 

Trading away useful veteran players when you have no chance of winning just makes sense no matter what. As sad as it was at the time, it was the right move to trade Stroman, Donaldson etc...

[connorp]

The Indians in Major League...

 

They were trying to tank bro

[Brownie19]

Well there's a divide of course...

 

The players on any team are going to try to win games no matter what, out of competitiveness and pride.

 

However, some front offices are sometimes clearly ensuring the team isn't good enough to win many games and therefore help get better draft picks. Those tear-down Cubs, Astros and Marlins teams were clearly destined to win <70 games and ensure better drafting for a few years. No one can seriously deny that.

 

The questions are 1) Should you penalize teams that do this and 2) should you force such teams to spend money to bring themselves closer to the middle. Is that good for the game/players/fanbases?

 

I guess there's some good arguments as to why a floor doesn't make sense if the goal is to ultimately win the World Series....but this is the PA - their goal is primarily to get more players more money. I still think a floor does that.

 

How else do you get more money in the players hands (instead of owners pocketing it from revenue sharing), how do you get more competitive balance? If Owners wanted to spend more - 90% of them could with no penalties, but they don't...and I simply don't think it can be good if teams decide before the season starts that they have no intension of trying to win that year.

 

Learn me.

[Deadpool]

Well there's a divide of course...

 

The players on any team are going to try to win games no matter what, out of competitiveness and pride.

 

However, some front offices are sometimes clearly ensuring the team isn't good enough to win many games and therefore help get better draft picks. Those tear-down Cubs, Astros and Marlins teams were clearly destined to win <70 games and ensure better drafting for a few years. No one can seriously deny that.

 

The questions are 1) Should you penalize teams that do this and 2) should you force such teams to spend money to bring themselves closer to the middle. Is that good for the game/players/fanbases?

 

There's always going to be a "worst team" even if all teams are forced to spend a minimum. It's not like the bottom 10 teams just won't get draft picks if they're forced to spend money on player salaries. You can definitely be a bad team that spends money.

 

1) probably not, 2) yes.

[jerb]

 

James Wagner

@ByJamesWagner

 

Two days after labor talks in Florida were called off, the lead negotiators for MLB and the players’ union will meet in person today.

[Stangstag]

 

James Wagner

@ByJamesWagner

 

Two days after labor talks in Florida were called off, the lead negotiators for MLB and the players’ union will meet in person today.

 

Good…

[Olerud363]

Trading away useful veteran players when you have no chance of winning just makes sense no matter what. As sad as it was at the time, it was the right move to trade Stroman, Donaldson etc...

 

They waited way too late to trade Donaldson. For the Toronto market this was totally justifiable. As they had 3 million fans in 2017, were coming off of only 1 bad year, and it made sense to try again.

 

However forcing a team to 'win' would be insane for a lower market team, or perhaps a team that was at the end of a 5 year run. What right does any governing body have to tell that team to implement a strategy that is counter-productive?

 

And say a team has a guy like Stroman they are trading anyway, how do you force them not to take on dead salary to get more prospect? I can tell you that is what savvy teams will do in down cycles.

 

You force them to have a 100 million dollar payroll, they will still trade players (but pay some of their salaries) and then take on bad contracts + prospects... so they will still lose (or tank) for a while and collect prospects anyway.

 

I think someone made the joke that if the floor is implemented Randal Grichuk would be a hot commodity because he will help the team make floor, and lose, so they will take on Randal if you give them prospects.

[Brownie19]

They waited way too late to trade Donaldson. For the Toronto market this was totally justifiable. As they had 3 million fans in 2017, were coming off of only 1 bad year, and it made sense to try again.

 

However forcing a team to 'win' would be insane for a lower market team, or perhaps a team that was at the end of a 5 year run. What right does any governing body have to tell that team to implement a strategy that is counter-productive?

 

And say a team has a guy like Stroman they are trading anyway, how do you force them not to take on dead salary to get more prospect? I can tell you that is what savvy teams will do in down cycles.

 

You force them to have a 100 million dollar payroll, they will still trade players (but pay some of their salaries) and then take on bad contracts + prospects... so they will still lose (or tank) for a while and collect prospects anyway.

 

I think someone made the joke that if the floor is implemented Randal Grichuk would be a hot commodity because he will help the team make floor, and lose, so they will take on Randal if you give them prospects.

 

Is there anything wrong with this? I know it won't make every team more competitive, but it may make more teams competitive and overall, I think it would put more money in the players hands than the Owners - which is what the PA wants. Now maybe you could argue that if teams are forced to spend $100M every year - even during s***** down years, then they won't spend as much in other years when they are trying to compete? I don't know if that's true though. Other leagues have salary floors - do you have an example of where that is failing?

[Olerud363]

Is there anything wrong with this? I know it won't make every team more competitive, but it may make more teams competitive and overall, I think it would put more money in the players hands than the Owners - which is what the PA wants. Now maybe you could argue that if teams are forced to spend $100M every year - even during s***** down years, then they won't spend as much in other years when they are trying to compete? I don't know if that's true though. Other leagues have salary floors - do you have an example of where that is failing?

 

That's a good question but I'm not knowledgeable enough about other sports to answer it. The concern I have is that the space between floor and ceiling will be too much. It looks like in the NBA the salary looks to be about 120 million at the low end and 180 at the high end.

 

In MLB I can see it being something like 120 at low end and 300 at high end (no hard cap).

 

If you started talking about a hard cap (or at least harsher) and some loop holes that would allow teams a better chance at keeping home grown players than I'd be more on board with the floor.

 

I am totally for more money in the hands of the players. I'd be for a floor if it is done in a system that also reduces that deviation between payrolls. Need a system that gets more money in hands of players with less variation of payrolls.

[Olerud363]

Yeah - say the floor system forces team to be 40% of max team? Is that fair if it does not really allow the team to contend anyway?

 

Need a system that forces team to be 75% of max team (with both floor and ceiling) but also makes sure levels are set so players are receiving more of the total pool. That's basically what the other sports do, isn't it?

[Abomination]

Is there anything wrong with this? I know it won't make every team more competitive, but it may make more teams competitive and overall, I think it would put more money in the players hands than the Owners - which is what the PA wants. Now maybe you could argue that if teams are forced to spend $100M every year - even during s***** down years, then they won't spend as much in other years when they are trying to compete? I don't know if that's true though. Other leagues have salary floors - do you have an example of where that is failing?

 

If a salary floor goes in, there will also have to be a salary ceiling and increased revenue sharing. There pretty much has to be. That's the part that the PA doesn't want under any circumstances.