Fire Charlie Montoyo - The thread worked guys!

[starfield]

I wasn't pointing out these examples as 'missteps' but as cool moves.

 

Pulling a guy pitching a shut out at 52 pitches? Then letting a guy go 90 pitches the next day after giving up runs early?

 

It's actually kind of interesting. Part of it is that Wacha is a long time starter so is allowed to go further, but it seems they allocate the bullpen innings with game probabilities. If the win probability is still around 40 to 60 they might go to the relievers early to try and nail the win, if the win probability is low or high they might let the starter go deeper as to not waste the bullpen.

 

Fascinating that in some cases they let a struggling starter go further.

 

That’s a good assessment.

Also, if the Rays are down a lot of runs, it makes sense to keep the struggling starter there. It saves innings for relievers, meaning you are keeping higher leverage relievers for the next game. Also, I wonder if the Rays go into the series thinking, “our goal is to take 2 out of 3. We are willing to sacrifice not going as intense in one game for the higher chances of winning the two”

[Laika]

Kevin Cash pulling Rasmussen is incredibly simple: third time through the order in a close game against a very good offense.

 

The Rays live by a code and we should all respect that. Every man needs a code.

[Brownie19]

I wasn't pointing out these examples as 'missteps' but as cool moves.

 

Pulling a guy pitching a shut out at 52 pitches? Then letting a guy go 90 pitches the next day after giving up runs early?

 

It's actually kind of interesting. Part of it is that Wacha is a long time starter so is allowed to go further, but it seems they allocate the bullpen innings with game probabilities. If the win probability is still around 40 to 60 they might go to the relievers early to try and nail the win, if the win probability is low or high they might let the starter go deeper as to not waste the bullpen.

 

Fascinating that in some cases they let a struggling starter go further.

 

I don't think that's interesting or fascinating at all. Shouldn't this strategy be the norm across baseball? It seems like common sense.

[TheHurl]

We've known about Pythagorean winning% since the 1980s, and Cash is one of the biggest stat-tard managers in baseball. There's no way he doesn't realize the guy chasing him in the standings is underperforming his record.

 

Rays FO definitely playing 6D analytics through the press.

 

Or Cash is just being nice to an old friend, whatevs.

 

Cash when hired knew nearly nothing about advanced stats. He was the candidate most open to learning. When the Rays moved someone from the front office to the bench, they didn't focus on teaching the numbers and making sure the decisions were being made by the numbers, they were focusing on buy-in (the biggest holdout Snell, was traded last year) If the Jays see in game decisions being a 1% plus or minus from the perfect analytical decision to the worst...but believe that buy-in for a system or a certain preparation is worth more than that, and believe Charlie is the guy to get an organization to buy-in on something that they didn't learn growing up, he will remain their guy. The players are fans...we are taught that baseball has to be a certain way and that is how you build a winning team. It's time we all open our eyes and buy-in. I have Olerud coming over...anyone else! Extend Charlie!

[max silver]

Charlie is much like Cito Gaston in that he deservedly takes a lot of heat for his in game managerial decisions, but for both Charlie and Cito it's purported that their influence outside of game time are their most positive attributes. Charlie may be clueless when it comes to proper in game strategy, and he also has a propensity to bring in the wrong relievers based on game scores and situation while also falling in love with mediocre veterans, but he has managed to keep this team positive despite any adversity that comes their way. There has been minimal complaining from the player base about the s***** situation they found themselves in to start the year playing out of minor league stadiums in Dunedin and Buffalo, and I think Charlie should receive a lot of credit for that. The club has also displayed a lot of resilience in being able to bounce back from tough losses which happened all too frequently throughout the season.

 

Ultimately I would still let him go as he has likely cost his club a chance at many victories that didn't ultimately come to fruition as he on many occasions failed to put his players in a proper position to succeed. I think he has served his purpose in guiding the club through the worst of the pandemic and allowed the team to keep a positive mindset despite whatever came their way, but a club with aspirations of competing can't afford to have their manager repeatedly making poor decisions over and over again.

[Stangstag]

Kevin Cash pulling Rasmussen is incredibly simple: third time through the order in a close game against a very good offense.

 

The Rays live by a code and we should all respect that. Every man needs a code.

 

They’ll break before they bend. Love it or hate it.

 

See: Snell game 6

[Olerud363]

I don't think that's interesting or fascinating at all. Shouldn't this strategy be the norm across baseball? It seems like common sense.

 

it sounds like common sense but is it? I've never seen a team pull guys early when they are going good, but leave guys in when they are going bad, as to not waste relievers.

 

Haven't watched the Rays enough to know if this is a regular thing.

[glory]

The players seem to like Charlie, and there have never been any clubhouse issues or disgruntled players. He puts a lot of trust into his players, even at the detriment of team success some times (ex. starting his 3rd string catcher in an important September game against the Rays when his two main catchers were both on hot streaks, keeping a clearly struggling Ryu in the game for one more batter with a predictable ending, etc). The players probably appreciate things like that even though fans hate it. Really, that's probably his only strength. He is a player's manager.

 

Beyond that, his in game decision making is awful. Horrendous, actually.

[Krylian]

The players seem to like Charlie, and there have never been any clubhouse issues or disgruntled players. He puts a lot of trust into his players, even at the detriment of team success some times (ex. starting his 3rd string catcher in an important September game against the Rays when his two main catchers were both on hot streaks, keeping a clearly struggling Ryu in the game for one more batter with a predictable ending, etc). The players probably appreciate things like that even though fans hate it. Really, that's probably his only strength. He is a player's manager.

 

Beyond that, his in game decision making is awful. Horrendous, actually.

 

Players manager or not, at some point they're going to realize that he's hindering team success. They'll want a guy that can get it done, regardless if he's their friend or not.

[John_Havok]

Players manager or not, at some point they're going to realize that he's hindering team success. They'll want a guy that can get it done, regardless if he's their friend or not.

 

I've no doubt that the FO is in constant contact with Charlie and have the conversations they need to have regarding some moves that he's made in games and get his thoughts on why he went one way vs another. There's no doubt the players love the guy, how could you not like a bongo playing manager?

 

I admit I'm not his biggest fan when it comes to in-game moves with the bullpen and when he pulls starters, but ... as long as he can defend his decisions to the satisfaction of the FO, or make corrections in the future, then he's not the anchor tying the team down that many think.

 

Yes, if i had to make a choice today on whether I would prefer Montoyo to be the manager next year I would likely say no, but big picture he's not that bad.

[TheHurl]

Lets say Vladdy or Bo say "I'll sign an extension if you extend Charlie". How quickly do you extend him? We know so little about the inner workings of a baseball organization. And lets face it, almost no playoff manager gets fired, so no one should want him fired.

[Laika]

Lets say Vladdy or Bo say "I'll sign an extension if you extend Charlie". How quickly do you extend him? We know so little about the inner workings of a baseball organization. And lets face it, almost no playoff manager gets fired, so no one should want him fired.

 

I'd give him a lifetime contract in a second if Vladdy would sign ANY EXTENSION

 

One year of Vlad and Bo would be worth decades of Charlie

 

Charlie is growing on me rapidly. He's like a tumor with a nice ugly smile.

[TheHurl]

Players manager or not, at some point they're going to realize that he's hindering team success. They'll want a guy that can get it done, regardless if he's their friend or not.

 

Show us the numbers that say he's hindered success. Make it measurable. Cause we know this F.O. follows numbers. And if you are going to use Expected W/L, keep in mind the Jays won 10% more games than their expected W/L the year before.

[Jonn]

Lets say Vladdy or Bo say "I'll sign an extension if you extend Charlie". How quickly do you extend him? We know so little about the inner workings of a baseball organization. And lets face it, almost no playoff manager gets fired, so no one should want him fired.

 

You trade the one that suggests a contract extension hinges on signing Montoyo long term.

[Stangstag]

Lets say Vladdy or Bo say "I'll sign an extension if you extend Charlie". How quickly do you extend him? We know so little about the inner workings of a baseball organization. And lets face it, almost no playoff manager gets fired, so no one should want him fired.

 

Not worth it IMO. I'd drop Charlie and trade Vlad when he's closer to free agency.

[Spanky99]

Who cares, Chuckles is a moron, but he isn't going anywhere anytime soon, were stuck with this meathead...

[Olerud363]

Not worth it IMO. I'd drop Charlie and trade Vlad when he's closer to free agency.

 

I'm not super-convinced Vlad is going to be great 'value' on a long term mega contract. However it would be great for the franchise to have Vlad be a career Jay.

 

If you tell me Vlad is going to sign for 10 years 300 million (or more) and Charlie for 10 years 22 million, I'll take it.

[glory]

McGuire starting at catcher today. Jays literally have one of the best offensive catchers in the league who will only play 2-3 times a week now for some reason.

[Jimcanuck]

McGuire or Kirk off-season roster? Assuming we get there.

[Skinny Wolf]

This guy can only play 3 notes, the goose in my backyard can sing 4.

[thatoneguy]

Here's the petition in a more permanent location: https://chng.it/rGTj2nq5Gv

[thatoneguy]

 

This quote looms very large now. Please fire this f***ing disgrace.

[Laika]

 

This quote looms very large now. Please fire this f***ing disgrace.

 

The quote looks fine in hindsight. The team turned it around and are playing meaningful games into the last series.

[Buster]

It's super weird that it's so obvious to us yet not to shatkins

[thatoneguy]

The quote looks fine in hindsight. The team turned it around and are playing meaningful games into the last series.

 

I mean more the fact that he didn't seem to care about pissing away games at the time.

[Stangstag]

It's super weird that it's so obvious to us yet not to shatkins

 

They need to start facing heat in the media if Charlie is back next year. Absolutely no reason to let this buffoon torpedo another season.

[JFD]

It's super weird that it's so obvious to us yet not to shatkins

 

I like to imagine that they've been frantically looking for a Spanish speaking replacement but it's not easy to find one during these f***ed up times

[Deadpool]

They were shredding Chuckles on 590 this morning. Was pleasantly surprised.

[Olerud363]

The worst decision of the season was a decision he couldn't possibly make. Leaving a homer prone pitcher that gets bombed 3rd time through the order to face Judge in the 6th.

 

Going forward the answer isn't to fire Charlie but to get the analytics team more involved. Can listen to the 3rd time through the order stats and use this game as justification.

 

I guess they need to build a deeper bullpen, or trust mediocre guys with 4 run leads to make the innings workers. Also seems to me Rays let starters go further in non-leverage games than close ones. Need to stuff like that. Let Ray keep going if he's leading 9-2, or losing 3-1 (to cover the innings).

 

On second thought maybe he does need to be fired, because you need an Alpha to pull a Cy Young candidate in a close game in the 6th.

[connorp]

They need to start facing heat in the media if Charlie is back next year. Absolutely no reason to let this buffoon torpedo another season.

 

He’ll be back but I’m pretty sure he’ll be top of the list in one of those “mlb managers on the hot seat” articles to begin the season