Fire Charlie Montoyo - The thread worked guys!

[Dick_Pole]

Montoyo winning the manager of the year would be the perfect topping to this season.

[Dick_Pole]

Montoya

 

Jesus Christ he gets paid to to this.

 

To be fair Montoyo autocorrects to Montoya on my phone. He got the first one right. You also made a hideously embarrassing typo but you don't get paid to do whatever it is you do around here.

[Terminator]

This thread is really quiet lately. Extend Montoyo.

[Abomination]

This thread is really quiet lately. Extend Montoyo.

 

He should absolutely be rewarded with a very long vacation.

[Dick_Pole]

Gibbons got off to a similar rocky start with this fickle board. If the young guys like him and "perform" for him, whatever the hell that means, he's not going to go anywhere. Somewhere Sheldon Keefe is shedding a tear.

[Grant77]

Gibbons got off to a similar rocky start. If the young guys like him and "perform" for him, whatever the hell that means, he's not going to go anywhere. Somewhere Sheldon Keefe is shedding a tear.

 

Keeping players happy and performing well has always been the most important thing. You'd like that kind of manager to also be a master tactitian, but it isn't always possible. We had it with Gibby to an extent, but I'll give Montoyo a chance to adapt. I can already see better decisions.

[Terminator]

Gibbons got off to a similar rocky start with this fickle board. If the young guys like him and "perform" for him, whatever the hell that means, he's not going to go anywhere. Somewhere Sheldon Keefe is shedding a tear.

 

I agree. Dusty Baker is a horrible tactician but by all accounts very good in the clubhouse. Plus he invented the high five and is a big proponent of tooth picks. Maybe in 20 years we will all be playing the bongos who knows.

[Terminator]

 

That sounds like a Manager of the Year to me

[Krylian]

 

That sounds like a Manager of the Year to me

 

When you see all the obstacles listed out like that it's incredible that they're where they are in the standings.

[Olerud363]

 

That sounds like a Manager of the Year to me

 

bbrWAR may be inferior but I like the picture at the top. And it features Ryu, young position players, and failed starting pitchers/waiver pickups.

 

Charlie may not be doing anything but staying out of the way... but you have to think

 

1. He is doing some coaching, and directing the coaching staff. Coaching staff is doing a great job.

2. Running the bullpen well.

 

According to baseball reference, having the young guys play well and a good bullpen made from scraps is worth lots of WAR. Can't say Charlie should get too much credit here but atleast he isn't in the way.

 

The dumb tactical decisions aren't worth much WAR either way.

[Dick_Pole]

Hoping there will be a bunt that leads to a run at a pivotal point in a key game in the playoffs. Just like how fashion comes back in style every few decades, Charlie is going to lead the way back to managing styles of the 80's.

[wilko]

Need more sac bunts Charles!

[BigCecil]

We are winning. Masks that Charlie is still awful overall. That is all I got.

 

Lets see how he manages el shitballer Roark this evening.

[Brownie19]

Charlie says Big Nate will pitch out of the bullpen if/when he returns.

 

 

Obviously this isn't 100% Charlie's call

[wilko]

Charlie says Big Nate will pitch out of the bullpen if/when he returns.

 

 

Obviously this isn't 100% Charlie's call

 

No sense in rushing innings to him soon as he's back.

[Slade]

Charlie says Big Nate will pitch out of the bullpen if/when he returns.

 

 

Obviously this isn't 100% Charlie's call

 

That's fair to be honest, he was pretty bad in all his starts. Rather him get a few strong innings out of the pen to build up some confidence and make sure his arm is good. Having another arm throwing gas out of the pen is a good thing.

[Olerud363]

Hoping there will be a bunt that leads to a run at a pivotal point in a key game in the playoffs. Just like how fashion comes back in style every few decades, Charlie is going to lead the way back to managing styles of the 80's.

 

It would also be cool if Jansen turns the corner a bit and get the average up to 200 with mind blowing walk rate and some power, but Caleb hits an empty .240, and Charlie starts working Caleb in more than Jansen

 

Jansen .200 .360 .400

Caleb Joseph .240 .230 .280

 

In this scenario Caleb's on base percentage is lower than his average because he gets a bunch of key sac bunts. That will be ultimate Charlie Manuel and make the board explode.

 

Edit - Sac bunts don't count for on base percentage, I don't think, so Caleb can't get the on base percentage lower than average through sac bunts, he'll need to throw in some sac fly's.

[Krylian]

Charlie says Big Nate will pitch out of the bullpen if/when he returns.

 

 

Obviously this isn't 100% Charlie's call

 

 

I hope his stuff plays up in the pen. Would enjoy seeing him hit 104 again.

[Olerud363]

It would also be cool if Jansen turns the corner a bit and get the average up to 200 with mind blowing walk rate and some power, but Caleb hits an empty .240, and Charlie starts working Caleb in more than Jansen

 

Jansen .200 .360 .400

Caleb Joseph .240 .230 .280

 

In this scenario Caleb's on base percentage is lower than his average because he gets a bunch of key sac bunts. That will be ultimate Charlie Manuel and make the board explode.

 

Edit - Sac bunts don't count for on base percentage, I don't think, so Caleb can't get the on base percentage lower than average through sac bunts, he'll need to throw in some sac fly's.

 

Also -- do poeple really think Montoyo is as bad as Gaston?

 

Not the same era but Cito let Hentgen and Guzman go 130+ pitches once and a while 110+ routinely. Charlie hasn't let Ryu go past 100 this year, didn't let Stroman go past 107 last year.

 

Pretty sure Cito would of already had Caleb Johnson replace Jansen.

 

Biggio would be platooning and hitting 8th.

 

Panik, Villar, Grichuk, Shaw would probably be top 4 day in, day out.

[Krylian]

Also -- do poeple really think Montoyo is as bad as Gaston?

 

Not the same era but Cito let Hentgen and Guzman go 130+ pitches once and a while 110+ routinely. Charlie hasn't let Ryu go past 100 this year, didn't let Stroman go past 107 last year.

 

Pretty sure Cito would of already had Caleb Johnson replace Jansen.

 

Biggio would be platooning and hitting 8th.

 

Panik, Villar, Grichuk, Shaw would probably be top 4 day in, day out.

 

To be fair, most managers let their starters go well beyond 110 regularly. Different era.

 

Everything else is true. Cito was a veteran players manager...but he couldn't strategize s***. Let your starter go 120 pitches...then go to Timlin, Ward, Henke...rinse repeat.

 

Make 162 photocopies of the starting lineup and fax them to the umpires in advance.

[Boxcar]

No sense in rushing innings to him soon as he's back.

 

I mean...it's not like he was good when he was starting. I don't see why he should have a spot locked down just yet.

[glory]

Cito benched 1993 John Olerud in a World Series game to get Ed Sprague into the lineup. I could totally see Charlie doing something like that, so maybe this is a good thing. We can't win with a pure analytics guy. We need more "I had a feeling he'd hit a home run" and "I'm batting the best hitter 8th to turn the lineup over". Time to embrace it.

[Grant77]

To be fair, most managers let their starters go well beyond 110 regularly. Different era.

 

Everything else is true. Cito was a veteran players manager...but he couldn't strategize s***. Let your starter go 120 pitches...then go to Timlin, Ward, Henke...rinse repeat.

 

Make 162 photocopies of the starting lineup and fax them to the umpires in advance.

 

I've never heard players that loved playing for a manager as much as Cito. Every interview they go out of their way to say good things. A lot of that was winning, but a lot of it is the atmosphere that the manager sets as well. I'm getting a bit of the same vibe from Montoyo. If the strategy lags a bit, but we still win, then so be it.

 

Now I'll just wait for Olerud to spend his entire day digging up an old interview where a player says something negative.

[Boxcar]

I've never heard players that loved playing for a manager as much as Cito. Every interview they go out of their way to say good things. A lot of that was winning, but a lot of it is the atmosphere that the manager sets as well. I'm getting a bit of the same vibe from Montoyo. If the strategy lags a bit, but we still win, then so be it.

 

Now I'll just wait for Olerud to spend his entire day digging up an old interview where a player says something negative.

 

To anyone tempted, please spare us

[Olerud363]

I've never heard players that loved playing for a manager as much as Cito. Every interview they go out of their way to say good things. A lot of that was winning, but a lot of it is the atmosphere that the manager sets as well. I'm getting a bit of the same vibe from Montoyo. If the strategy lags a bit, but we still win, then so be it.

 

Now I'll just wait for Olerud to spend his entire day digging up an old interview where a player says something negative.

 

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/blue-jays-players-verge-on-open-rebellion-against-gaston/article1203206/

 

(edit just to be honest here, the first link I put in about the Mutiny turned out to pretty much make Grant's point ironically, anyway the Globe and Mail article is much more what I remember about that year. As a baseball fan I watch to see the team win, and to see young players develop, there was nothing worse to me as a younger person, to turn on a game and see Brumfield, Millar, Tabler or some other old coot, playing in place of one of the up and coming young guys, like I said I don't care if Charlie bunts every game, at least I know Biggio will be playing and not replaced by a modern day Pat Tabler).

 

Of everything that has ever happened on the board your petty mean spirited trolling is the worst. You know that many players dislikied Cito, you know about the mutiny that happened in 2009, you know that young players like Green, Olerud, Snider and Delgado missed 100+ games of their career so Kevin Millar, Pat Tabler, Jacob Brumfield and Ruben Sierra could get at bats. You know Cito had issues, but you pathologically and cheerilly deny it just to create trouble.

 

You know all this but you troll anyway. Strange stuff.

Edited September 9, 2020 by Olerud363

[Olerud363]

To anyone tempted, please spare us

 

And what's with you?? One minute you are all like 'freedom of speach, I'm being repressed', then you're like 'please spare us from something I don't want to see'

 

Either you believe in freedom of speech or you don't, if you do just let people talk about what they want within reason, and skip the stuff that annoys you.

[Grant77]

"Here is what I know about Gaston—every former player who played for him in Toronto in the '90s raves about him. They can’t stop talking about what a great manager he was."

[wilko]

I thought this thread was for getting Charlie fired? All I see is guys sucking his dick. You know Dan Shulman lurks here so let's get the hate brewing!

[Olerud363]

Cito benched 1993 John Olerud in a World Series game to get Ed Sprague into the lineup. I could totally see Charlie doing something like that, so maybe this is a good thing. We can't win with a pure analytics guy. We need more "I had a feeling he'd hit a home run" and "I'm batting the best hitter 8th to turn the lineup over". Time to embrace it.

 

Exactly. Olerud was an 8 WAR player that year. Other than Josh Donaldson who else has done that in Blue Jays history?? Maybe I'm forgetting someone.

 

Supposedly it was to get Molitor with no DH, but Molitor played 3rd the next 2 days, so it really came down to Sprague or Olerud....

 

And of course you have people like Bob McCown claiming Cito is one of the worst people he ever met.. OK Bob Cat may not be that reliable. Wilner?? Same thing.

 

And it's just the ********. Certain people weren't "respected" in Cito's mind, and others were. If you are Devon White or Joe Carter, and get the best lineup spots every single day?? Of course you love Cito. If you are an equally or more talented hitter that is platooned and hitting down in the lineup becaue you don't have Cito's "respect" then you might think differently.

[Olerud363]

Cito was about washed about veteranism. Pat Tabler was a horrible player in 91 . -1 WAR in a platoon role. Tabler got regular platoon at bats and a call back in 92. Of course Tabby thinks Cito is a great guy, he got to tag along for a World Series as a washed up negative WAR guy. Does Domingo Martinez think Cito is a great guy??

 

Guys like Domingo Martinez never got a shot at all... Domingo Martinez may have been nothing, but you could imagine if Charlie played a .200 hitter with negative WAR instead of trying to figure out Hernandez.

 

And that is why Cito's awful, and Charlie is OK. Charlie plays the high level real young guys every single freakin' day, and tries to sort through the rest in case one or more are hidden gems. The guys who might have a chance get a look and the Pat Tablers and Kevin Millars can start an early announcing career.