Fire Charlie Montoyo - The thread worked guys!

[max silver]

Or Espinal was viewed as a better bet to bunt Alford over than McGuire. Supposedly Montoya was hired as manager for a rebuilding club based on his supposed strength in player development. Maybe he is good at that, but his in-game management is questionable.

 

I've come to the conclusion that Montoyo isn't placing enough urgency on winning the ball-game that his team is currently engaged in, in a normal season where each individual game isn't as important and where the Jays likely wouldn't have a chance at the playoffs that would be fine. But with expanded playoffs and a shortened 60 game season it would be nice if we would actually be willing to pull out all the stops to maximize his team's chances of winning each individual game instead of trying to worry about who is pitching tomorrows game.

[BlueRocky]

After Alford stole 2nd they had about a 75% win expectancy.

The Espinal strikeout lowered it to 65.5%. Hard to say how much the bunt decision itself lowered run expectancy; Espinal might have whiffed even if swinging away.

 

After Fisher walked they had a 75% win expectancy again.

 

RE with 1st and 3rd one out is about 1.140

RE with 2nd and 3rd one out is about 1.352

 

Not only is the total RE higher with him on 2nd, the expectancy of getting one run is also probably higher as the double play is removed. So, if Fisher indeed has a 100% chance to get to 2nd they certainly have up a some odds of taking the lead.

 

Honestly, I think a really sharp manager pinch hits for Espinal in that inning. I think he had already K'd hopelessly against Scherzer twice. McGuire was the only one on the bench IIRC. It's awkward, sure, and most managers wouldn't do it, but you're really just taking about Drury at SS, Vlad at 3B, and Reese or Jansen at 1st, if they take the lead maybe just for one half inning. Espinal's naked projection is to hit .243/.288 while McGuire's is to hit .241/.300, but when you factor in handedness you're probably looking at like a .050 expected AVG/OBP split vs. Scherzer.

 

Yep. Expecting a rookie with 11 ABs to win you the ball game against Max Scherzer is probably a bad idea. If it was a must win situation he would be pinch hit for and I’d check to see if Bichette was healthy enough for 1 AB. Montoyo is treating it like spring training and developing time.

[Brownie19]

Are pitchers just not allowed to go back to back days? Surely Font was available for an inning.

 

I think the FO / high performance team is dictating this personally.

[Boxcar]

After Alford stole 2nd they had about a 75% win expectancy.

The Espinal strikeout lowered it to 65.5%. Hard to say how much the bunt decision itself lowered run expectancy; Espinal might have whiffed even if swinging away.

 

After Fisher walked they had a 75% win expectancy again.

 

RE with 1st and 3rd one out is about 1.140

RE with 2nd and 3rd one out is about 1.352

 

Not only is the total RE higher with him on 2nd, the expectancy of getting one run is also probably higher as the double play is removed. So, if Fisher indeed has a 100% chance to get to 2nd they certainly have up a some odds of taking the lead.

 

Honestly, I think a really sharp manager pinch hits for Espinal in that inning. I think he had already K'd hopelessly against Scherzer twice. McGuire was the only one on the bench IIRC. It's awkward, sure, and most managers wouldn't do it, but you're really just taking about Drury at SS, Vlad at 3B, and Reese or Jansen at 1st, if they take the lead maybe just for one half inning. Espinal's naked projection is to hit .243/.288 while McGuire's is to hit .241/.300, but when you factor in handedness you're probably looking at like a .050 expected AVG/OBP split vs. Scherzer.

 

Why do you know this and Charles doesnt

[Brownie19]

Enjoy.

 

He's not wrong. Biggio was an inch away from us getting out of it without giving up a run.

 

I personally love his shot at Vladdy here - who didn't make the play at 1st. Wouldn't it be nice to hear that Vladdy is putting in a ton of extra time at the diamond working on his defense at 1st?

[Boxcar]

I've come to the conclusion that Montoyo isn't placing enough urgency on winning the ball-game that his team is currently engaged in, in a normal season where each individual game isn't as important and where the Jays likely wouldn't have a chance at the playoffs that would be fine. But with expanded playoffs and a shortened 60 game season it would be nice if we would actually be willing to pull out all the stops to maximize his team's chances of winning each individual game instead of trying to worry about who is pitching tomorrows game.

 

This is also how I feel. It totally seems like he thinks this is still ST, with strict pitch counts, playing s***** players every day, hesitancy to use relievers for more than one inning even if they look good. It really feels like wins are irrelevant to him, which is shocking. And you know, I'm glad he's being honest in his post games, but that's also the problem. You see the way this guy thinks and just go, "uhhh...what?"

[Laika]

Can we just give up on Vladdy at 1st already? Hard to imagine the team not always having a better defensive option there.

 

Just make him a DH. There is a developmental curve there too (mental) so they might as well start it now.

[LGBJ29]

Enjoy.

 

This is insane. If Charlie can't manage a bullpen 6 games into a 60 games season with 30 f***ing players on the roster, how on earth does he survive 162 with 26 guys. This is embarrassing

[Dick_Pole]

This is all a function of a weak pen given too many innings. Don't tell me you guys wouldn't have screamed bloody murder if Pearson touched anywhere near 100 pitches. He has 75 yesterday. Maybe Roark should have gone longer since who cares about him but it's not like taking an SP out after 5 is an egregious decision in April baseball played in late July.

 

Let's just hope Ryu can go 7+ today. And if Montoyo takes him out early even when pitching well that would be a decision worth complaining about.

[Dick_Pole]

This is insane. If Charlie can't manage a bullpen 6 games into a 60 games season with 30 f***ing players on the roster, how on earth does he survive 162 with 26 guys. This is embarrassing

 

Maybe this is his way of gaslighting the FO for not adding to the pen in the offseason. Charlie Montoyo is a freakin genius! Injure the one good guy then bring out the dartboard on the rest of the manure.

[guylaroche5]

I can't even say I was that mad about Yamaguchi coming into the game but what exactly was the excuse for not running in the 8th when he had two of his fastest runners vs noodle arm Kurt Suzuki?

[Boxcar]

Can we just give up on Vladdy at 1st already? Hard to imagine the team not always having a better defensive option there.

 

Just make him a DH. There is a developmental curve there too (mental) so they might as well start it now.

 

I swear to god you were rubbing your pecker to Vlad's first base defense like 2 days ago

[Boxcar]

Maybe this is his way of gaslighting the FO for not adding to the pen in the offseason. Charlie Montoyo is a freakin genius! Injure the one good guy then bring out the dartboard on the rest of the manure.

 

4d chess

[Krylian]

Montoyo is basically Cito Gaston without Henke and Ward.

 

He has Henke, Ward, and Timlin (Giles, Romano, Bass). He just broke Henke and is using Ward in the 6th inning.

[Spanky99]

I think he was their second choice. I remember listening to a podcast and Davidi said they wanted Baldelli but Minnesota got him. Regardless though this is the guy they went with over Gibby and he looks a lot worse.

 

This isn't true, he stepped down, didn't want to go through a rebuild.

[Grant77]

This isn't true, he stepped down, didn't want to go through a rebuild.

 

I don't believe for a second that it was voluntary.

[Spanky99]

I don't believe for a second that it was voluntary.

 

So why would he say it, then?

[Boxcar]

So why would he say it, then?

 

Obviously to make it look like an amicable parting for optics?

 

Are you aware that people sometimes sugarcoat things to limit controversy?

[Spanky99]

Obviously to make it look like an amicable parting for optics?

 

Are you aware that people sometimes sugarcoat things to limit controversy?

 

Why would Gibbons say it, if he was fired? He wouldn't have to say anything... I believe he was being sincere, and I hope we see 3.0 Gibby as soon as next year.

[saskjayfan]

This isn't true, he stepped down, didn't want to go through a rebuild.

 

That's not true. His contract was up and head office wanted to try a different direction. Gibby was here a long time. It's understandable you want to try something else. The grass is always greener on the other side. The cubs parted ways with Maddon.

 

You can't begin to appreciate the job that gibby did until he's gone a while. It's easy to see the mistakes managers make, not as easy to see all the good things they do. Gibby was a solid manager. He left on good terms, because he's a great guy. I hope he gets a shot with a team again because he's a good manager.

 

https://www.thestar.com/sports/bluejays/opinion/2020/04/30/john-gibbons-wants-back-in-the-game-and-to-shed-that-old-school-reputation.html

[Laika]

Why would Gibbons say it, if he was fired? He wouldn't have to say anything... I believe he was being sincere, and I hope we see 3.0 Gibby as soon as next year.

 

He wasn't literally fired but when a manager's contract is up and the team tells him they aren't giving him a new one it's not a far cry from being fired.

 

Better for both parties if they say in that circumstance that they agreed to part ways. Team doesn't have to necessarily look like they are s***ing on a popular figure. Manager does not have to necessarily admit that they were not wanted.

[Spanky99]

That's not true. His contract was up and head office wanted to try a different direction. Gibby was here a long time. It's understandable you want to try something else. The grass is always greener on the other side. The cubs parted ways with Maddon.

 

You can't begin to appreciate the job that gibby did until he's gone a while. It's easy to see the mistakes managers make, not as easy to see all the good things they do. Gibby was a solid manager. He left on good terms, because he's a great guy. I hope he gets a shot with a team again because he's a good manager.

 

https://www.thestar.com/sports/bluejays/opinion/2020/04/30/john-gibbons-wants-back-in-the-game-and-to-shed-that-old-school-reputation.html

 

You just proved my point? Most of that article is conjecture from the writer. He said that quote below in season...

 

“I’m not so sure I want to go through one of those things. A total rebuild.

[Spanky99]

He wasn't literally fired but when a manager's contract is up and the team tells him they aren't giving him a new one it's not a far cry from being fired.

 

Better for both parties if they say in that circumstance that they agreed to part ways. Team doesn't have to necessarily look like they are s***ing on a popular figure. Manager does not have to necessarily admit that they were not wanted.

 

I understand they parted ways in good faith to one another, I'm just saying I believe Gibbons was sincere when he said it, regardless of them wanting their guy, he didn't want to go through a rebuild. They moved on.

[Laika]

I understand they parted ways in good faith to one another, I'm just saying I believe Gibbons was sincere when he said it, regardless of them wanting their guy, he didn't want to go through a rebuild. They moved on.

 

I don't think he lied either but it's pretty easy to decide that you don't want to go through a rebuild when the team priming for a rebuild has already indicated they don't want you around.

 

I mean, if Toronto presents him with an extension do you really think he turns it down? Not a chance.

[Spanky99]

I don't think he lied either but it's pretty easy to decide that you don't want to go through a rebuild when the team priming for a rebuild has already indicated they don't want you around.

 

I mean, if Toronto presents him with an extension do you really think he turns it down? Not a chance.

 

Good point, but didn't Atkins just go through this situation, if I recall correctly? Also Gibbons thought his retirement was going to be easy but he got the itch to get back in baseball the following year by his account.

[KevinGregg]

He wasn't literally fired but when a manager's contract is up and the team tells him they aren't giving him a new one it's not a far cry from being fired.

 

Better for both parties if they say in that circumstance that they agreed to part ways. Team doesn't have to necessarily look like they are s***ing on a popular figure. Manager does not have to necessarily admit that they were not wanted.

 

Your timeline is all wrong..

 

Gibby left after 2018 even though his contract ran through 2019, so his contract wasn't up yet.

 

He stated on august 10 he didnt want to go through a full rebuild.

Atkins stated August 17, clearly in response to Gibbys previous comments, that they had a long talk together and Gibbons would at least finish the season

 

Then on sept 24 the final day of the season they announced he would not return, and that day Gibby again reiterated that he doesnt have the energy to go through a rebuild.

 

Gibby allowed the Jays to save face by not outright quitting, that was the only spin involved.

[Spanky99]

Your timeline is all wrong..

 

Gibby left after 2018 even though his contract ran through 2019, so his contract wasn't up yet.

 

He stated on august 10 he didnt want to go through a full rebuild.

Atkins stated August 17, clearly in response to Gibbys previous comments, that they had a long talk together and Gibbons would at least finish the season

 

Then on sept 24 the final day of the season they announced he would not return, and that day Gibby again reiterated that he doesnt have the energy to go through a rebuild.

 

Gibby allowed the Jays to save face by not outright quitting, that was the only spin involved.

 

Thank you.

[Laika]

Either I am wrong or the news is fake. The voters will decide.

[Spanky99]

Either I am wrong or the news is fake. The voters will decide.

 

lol

[Boxcar]

Why would Gibbons say it, if he was fired? He wouldn't have to say anything... I believe he was being sincere, and I hope we see 3.0 Gibby as soon as next year.

 

Not to speak for everyone, but I'm fairly certain 80% of this board badly wants to see Gibby return. Not to spoil anything but we are going to see if we can get an interview with him. We are still small fish but maybe he's willing to grace us with some of his time so we can ask him straight up if he left because he wanted to or if he was just not being renewed. If it's the latter, that's inexcusable. Like the rest of this team, Gibbons has grown as a manager. He's not stubborn. He improved his in game management year after year and he seemed like probably the best personality in baseball. There was no reason to let this guy go unless he wanted to.