Mookie 2021

[max silver]

Yes, let's trade Giles for a guy who might provide 2 wins a season for 6 seasons in 2023 or 2024. Making a trade doesn't exist in a vacuum. If you waste all the excess value a young core like Vlad, Guerrero, Biggio, Pearson and Gurriel bring by never building a winner, you'll be talking about trading them for the next rebuild in 3 years when your prospect you've traded for hits the majors.

 

It's not exactly easy to get a guy like Giles on the free agent market. There was only one comparable reliever to Giles available on this year's market and you have to compete with 29 other teams. I prefer Giles to Harris too, and I think the comp pick you give up to sign that elite reliever will be just as valuable as what you're going to get back for Giles in trade.

 

I've come to the realization that the best move with respect with Giles is likely to move him at the trade deadline, and then sign him back in the off-season. If he likes the Jays as much as he has stated then there should be no issue with getting him resigned at that point, just like the Yankees did with Aroldis Chapman. Unfortunately you'll likely never see another team stupid enough to move a prospect like Gleyber Torres for half a season of a reliever ever again, but Giles if healthy should be able to net back a nice prospect. You might end having to pay a little more to keep Giles compared to a pre or mid-season extension, but this way you have another hopefully nice prospect+Giles as well, think of it as using cash to buy a prospect.

[Laika]

Yes, let's trade Giles for a guy who might provide 2 wins a season for 6 seasons in 2023 or 2024.

 

Why make this assumption? It's incredibly dishonest. You have no idea what they could get for Giles.

 

Making a trade doesn't exist in a vacuum.

 

The irony of this sentence; neither does an extension. They can (and should) trade Ken Giles and still spend the money that would have gone to him on the MLB roster.

 

It's not exactly easy to get a guy like Giles on the free agent market.

 

Yet you think extending a guy like Giles is going to be cakewalk and Toronto is going to come away paying 70 cents on the market dollar?

 

There's just an incredible amount of wilful blindness, dishonesty, and incoherence in most of what you are saying.

 

Plan A needs to be to trade Giles. If there is no decent return available, maybe the team pivots to extension talks, but that should be the clear Plan B.

[L54]

On what planet is Mookie Betts signing with the Jays contingent on Kenny G being extended? Mookie Betts will not give a flying f*** who the closer is if he gets 10/350.

 

The argument to not trade Giles doesn’t hold water. We literally just saw what can happen when you trade guys you don’t plan on extending with Stroman. Toronto ended up with Ryu, SWR and Kay

 

Ken Giles for 3/36 or Prospect A + Giles/Treinen/Hand/whoever for 3/36. Prospect A doesn’t have to fit a specific timeline. In fact, Prospect A could be part of maintaining a steady pipeline of quality cost controlled talent which is the ultimate goal.

[RobinThicc]

They should be in on him, but who knows how much more they'd have to add just to convince him to come here.

[Jimcanuck]

They should be in on him, but who knows how much more they'd have to add just to convince him to come here.

 

And playing on plastic over concrete is not an enjoyable prospect.

[Ryu In My House]

It's funny you made a thread about this because in my mind it makes sense and I have been saying they should do this for a while. I think the Jays go after him hard. It's removing 5+ WAR from Boston and giving TO the WAR and PR. It's a no brainer.

[glory]

They should be in on him, but who knows how much more they'd have to add just to convince him to come here.

 

And the Dodgers seem to be saving up for him, so it will be a tougher sell if it's LA versus Toronto. Of course, offering more money + term can do wonders.

[Ryu In My House]

On what planet is Mookie Betts signing with the Jays contingent on Kenny G being extended? Mookie Betts will not give a flying f*** who the closer is if he gets 10/350.

 

The argument to not trade Giles doesn’t hold water. We literally just saw what can happen when you trade guys you don’t plan on extending with Stroman. Toronto ended up with Ryu, SWR and Kay

 

Ken Giles for 3/36 or Prospect A + Giles/Treinen/Hand/whoever for 3/36. Prospect A doesn’t have to fit a specific timeline. In fact, Prospect A could be part of maintaining a steady pipeline of quality cost controlled talent which is the ultimate goal.

 

10/350M is probably pretty close. Yikes, big number, and he will be probably done by year 7 or 8, but the WAR and PR gain on Boston is fantastic during the years he plays. #baberuth

 

On a different topic, when will MLB f***ing realign the divisions? I hate that the Jays play the Yankees, Red Sox and Rays 115% of the time. ********.

[Perfect Game]

I said a couple weeks ago that Rogers should make the offer to Mookie next year, but we have to somehow convince him to come here too. It's part of the reason I want to extend Giles. I don't think we get a difference maker in a trade with Giles. He's a very good closer that helps our team more attractive to free agents.

 

First off please allow me to introduce myself & to apologize in advance for the length of this post.

I started reading this board about two weeks into its inception. I’ve signed up twice, forgot both passwords & now have a new email addy so a new account was needed. I’d like to thank the majority of the posters on this board for having taught me so much. I really mean it, I sound like a genius when I talk ball to people so thanks guys and gals I couldn’t do it without you. Also thanks to those that post the paywall articles. I feel its necessary to explain all this because you’ve triggered me & forced me to sign up & I hate signing up for new sites, but I just can’t hold my tongue any longer. I’m also not going to use the board quoting system because frankly I’m not willing to risk carpel tunnel having to quote that much stupid so I’ll go at it the old fashioned way.

So if we extend Giles & he blows out his arm Mookie won’t want to come here? And just stop with that nobody wants to play in Canada ********. You know how you get him to come here? Offer the most $$$. If he spends the season in the division he’ll see for himself if this core has promise or not & he’ll pass or at least consider it.

“You want to flip Giles for a guy who could be a difference maker in 3 years?”
Why are you assuming it’ll be a prospect? Is the front office not allowed to get a major league piece back? What if someone offers a bonafide OF that’s blocking a ‘spect they want to call up?

“If we trade Giles, our odds of signing him are not great. I feel if we extend today we also save 20% to 30%”

So you’re certain we won’t be able to reign him as a FA but you feel he’d give the team a discount! Why in the world would he give the team you clearly believe he won’t want to be a part of a season from now a discount?

“You're listing prospects. The closer to the MLB they are the lower their ceiling.”

So Pearson’s lost his shine because he’s pegged to be here mid season? Good to know. I guess I’ll just cancel the trip to PNC this summer when he’ll hopefully make his debut. That means following them to Milwaukee is a no go either.

“I'm extremely optimistic on the young core here now and I don't want to waste opportunities to win. I want to accelerate the process not make moves to delay it”

I get it I really do. The homer in me wants to believe they can make a wildcard this year but the realist knows that even .500 is a stretch.

“Yes, let's trade Giles for a guy who might provide 2 wins a season for 6 seasons in 2023 or 2024.”

Why are you so hung up on this? Everyone & their mother knows we need OF’s. You don’t think the FO has made interested teams aware of this? Also three team trades are a thing. Maybe we score an OF from a team in teardown mode & the team that gets Giles flips the ‘specs to them.

“and you have to compete with 29 other teams”
I highly doubt the Tigers, OriLOLes & others of their ilk need an elite reliever right now.

I think teams might be a little skeptical about Giles & may want to see a couple of months from him before pulling the trigger. At that time the FO can sit him down & have a conversation with him. If he really wants to stay here maybe he buys into the trade & resign idea. Chapman did why not Ken?

And finally, did you get a perm ban from SportsNet & you just can’t figure out how to use a VPN because Geezus the amount of dumb you keep posting is really better suited there. I told you I was triggered.

FWIW I’m all aboard the Mookie train.

[Krylian]

We live in a post Ryu world. You should have a shred of faith at least!

 

There's a big difference between committing $80M and $200M. I really hope I'm wrong, but until the Jays actually go all in on one of the elite elite guys, I won't be convinced.

[max silver]

First off please allow me to introduce myself & to apologize in advance for the length of this post.

I started reading this board about two weeks into its inception. I’ve signed up twice, forgot both passwords & now have a new email addy so a new account was needed. I’d like to thank the majority of the posters on this board for having taught me so much. I really mean it, I sound like a genius when I talk ball to people so thanks guys and gals I couldn’t do it without you. Also thanks to those that post the paywall articles. I feel its necessary to explain all this because you’ve triggered me & forced me to sign up & I hate signing up for new sites, but I just can’t hold my tongue any longer. I’m also not going to use the board quoting system because frankly I’m not willing to risk carpel tunnel having to quote that much stupid so I’ll go at it the old fashioned way.

So if we extend Giles & he blows out his arm Mookie won’t want to come here? And just stop with that nobody wants to play in Canada ********. You know how you get him to come here? Offer the most $$$. If he spends the season in the division he’ll see for himself if this core has promise or not & he’ll pass or at least consider it.

“You want to flip Giles for a guy who could be a difference maker in 3 years?”
Why are you assuming it’ll be a prospect? Is the front office not allowed to get a major league piece back? What if someone offers a bonafide OF that’s blocking a ‘spect they want to call up?

“If we trade Giles, our odds of signing him are not great. I feel if we extend today we also save 20% to 30%”

So you’re certain we won’t be able to reign him as a FA but you feel he’d give the team a discount! Why in the world would he give the team you clearly believe he won’t want to be a part of a season from now a discount?

“You're listing prospects. The closer to the MLB they are the lower their ceiling.”

So Pearson’s lost his shine because he’s pegged to be here mid season? Good to know. I guess I’ll just cancel the trip to PNC this summer when he’ll hopefully make his debut. That means following them to Milwaukee is a no go either.

“I'm extremely optimistic on the young core here now and I don't want to waste opportunities to win. I want to accelerate the process not make moves to delay it”

I get it I really do. The homer in me wants to believe they can make a wildcard this year but the realist knows that even .500 is a stretch.

“Yes, let's trade Giles for a guy who might provide 2 wins a season for 6 seasons in 2023 or 2024.”

Why are you so hung up on this? Everyone & their mother knows we need OF’s. You don’t think the FO has made interested teams aware of this? Also three team trades are a thing. Maybe we score an OF from a team in teardown mode & the team that gets Giles flips the ‘specs to them.

“and you have to compete with 29 other teams”
I highly doubt the Tigers, OriLOLes & others of their ilk need an elite reliever right now.

I think teams might be a little skeptical about Giles & may want to see a couple of months from him before pulling the trigger. At that time the FO can sit him down & have a conversation with him. If he really wants to stay here maybe he buys into the trade & resign idea. Chapman did why not Ken?

And finally, did you get a perm ban from SportsNet & you just can’t figure out how to use a VPN because Geezus the amount of dumb you keep posting is really better suited there. I told you I was triggered.

FWIW I’m all aboard the Mookie train.

 

Welcome aboard, in the future please do our eyes a favor and at the very least split walls of text like this into paragraphs.

[DigitalRock]

First off please allow me to introduce myself & to apologize in advance for the length of this post.

I started reading this board about two weeks into its inception. I’ve signed up twice, forgot both passwords & now have a new email addy so a new account was needed. I’d like to thank the majority of the posters on this board for having taught me so much. I really mean it, I sound like a genius when I talk ball to people so thanks guys and gals I couldn’t do it without you. Also thanks to those that post the paywall articles. I feel its necessary to explain all this because you’ve triggered me & forced me to sign up & I hate signing up for new sites, but I just can’t hold my tongue any longer. I’m also not going to use the board quoting system because frankly I’m not willing to risk carpel tunnel having to quote that much stupid so I’ll go at it the old fashioned way.

So if we extend Giles & he blows out his arm Mookie won’t want to come here? And just stop with that nobody wants to play in Canada ********. You know how you get him to come here? Offer the most $$$. If he spends the season in the division he’ll see for himself if this core has promise or not & he’ll pass or at least consider it.

“You want to flip Giles for a guy who could be a difference maker in 3 years?”
Why are you assuming it’ll be a prospect? Is the front office not allowed to get a major league piece back? What if someone offers a bonafide OF that’s blocking a ‘spect they want to call up?

“If we trade Giles, our odds of signing him are not great. I feel if we extend today we also save 20% to 30%”

So you’re certain we won’t be able to reign him as a FA but you feel he’d give the team a discount! Why in the world would he give the team you clearly believe he won’t want to be a part of a season from now a discount?

“You're listing prospects. The closer to the MLB they are the lower their ceiling.”

So Pearson’s lost his shine because he’s pegged to be here mid season? Good to know. I guess I’ll just cancel the trip to PNC this summer when he’ll hopefully make his debut. That means following them to Milwaukee is a no go either.

“I'm extremely optimistic on the young core here now and I don't want to waste opportunities to win. I want to accelerate the process not make moves to delay it”

I get it I really do. The homer in me wants to believe they can make a wildcard this year but the realist knows that even .500 is a stretch.

“Yes, let's trade Giles for a guy who might provide 2 wins a season for 6 seasons in 2023 or 2024.”

Why are you so hung up on this? Everyone & their mother knows we need OF’s. You don’t think the FO has made interested teams aware of this? Also three team trades are a thing. Maybe we score an OF from a team in teardown mode & the team that gets Giles flips the ‘specs to them.

“and you have to compete with 29 other teams”
I highly doubt the Tigers, OriLOLes & others of their ilk need an elite reliever right now.

I think teams might be a little skeptical about Giles & may want to see a couple of months from him before pulling the trigger. At that time the FO can sit him down & have a conversation with him. If he really wants to stay here maybe he buys into the trade & resign idea. Chapman did why not Ken?

And finally, did you get a perm ban from SportsNet & you just can’t figure out how to use a VPN because Geezus the amount of dumb you keep posting is really better suited there. I told you I was triggered.

FWIW I’m all aboard the Mookie train.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paragraph

[saskjayfan]

First off please allow me to introduce myself & to apologize in advance for the length of this post.

I started reading this board about two weeks into its inception. I’ve signed up twice, forgot both passwords & now have a new email addy so a new account was needed. I’d like to thank the majority of the posters on this board for having taught me so much. I really mean it, I sound like a genius when I talk ball to people so thanks guys and gals I couldn’t do it without you. Also thanks to those that post the paywall articles. I feel its necessary to explain all this because you’ve triggered me & forced me to sign up & I hate signing up for new sites, but I just can’t hold my tongue any longer. I’m also not going to use the board quoting system because frankly I’m not willing to risk carpel tunnel having to quote that much stupid so I’ll go at it the old fashioned way.

So if we extend Giles & he blows out his arm Mookie won’t want to come here? And just stop with that nobody wants to play in Canada ********. You know how you get him to come here? Offer the most $$$. If he spends the season in the division he’ll see for himself if this core has promise or not & he’ll pass or at least consider it.

“You want to flip Giles for a guy who could be a difference maker in 3 years?”
Why are you assuming it’ll be a prospect? Is the front office not allowed to get a major league piece back? What if someone offers a bonafide OF that’s blocking a ‘spect they want to call up?

“If we trade Giles, our odds of signing him are not great. I feel if we extend today we also save 20% to 30%”

So you’re certain we won’t be able to reign him as a FA but you feel he’d give the team a discount! Why in the world would he give the team you clearly believe he won’t want to be a part of a season from now a discount?

“You're listing prospects. The closer to the MLB they are the lower their ceiling.”

So Pearson’s lost his shine because he’s pegged to be here mid season? Good to know. I guess I’ll just cancel the trip to PNC this summer when he’ll hopefully make his debut. That means following them to Milwaukee is a no go either.

“I'm extremely optimistic on the young core here now and I don't want to waste opportunities to win. I want to accelerate the process not make moves to delay it”

I get it I really do. The homer in me wants to believe they can make a wildcard this year but the realist knows that even .500 is a stretch.

“Yes, let's trade Giles for a guy who might provide 2 wins a season for 6 seasons in 2023 or 2024.”

Why are you so hung up on this? Everyone & their mother knows we need OF’s. You don’t think the FO has made interested teams aware of this? Also three team trades are a thing. Maybe we score an OF from a team in teardown mode & the team that gets Giles flips the ‘specs to them.

“and you have to compete with 29 other teams”
I highly doubt the Tigers, OriLOLes & others of their ilk need an elite reliever right now.

I think teams might be a little skeptical about Giles & may want to see a couple of months from him before pulling the trigger. At that time the FO can sit him down & have a conversation with him. If he really wants to stay here maybe he buys into the trade & resign idea. Chapman did why not Ken?

And finally, did you get a perm ban from SportsNet & you just can’t figure out how to use a VPN because Geezus the amount of dumb you keep posting is really better suited there. I told you I was triggered.

FWIW I’m all aboard the Mookie train.

 

1. You didn't need to create another account and pretend to be a first time poster.

 

2. I never said we need to extend Giles to get Betts. I said, the better the team is the more likely Betts is to sign. We have 2 above average pitchers. Ryu and Giles. I expect Pearson to be the 3rd, but what if he struggles out of the gate. That isn't going to make our position better come free agency.

 

3. I never said Giles would give the Jays a 20 to 30 percent home town discount. I acknowledged he had some arm issues last year and 2018 wasn't his best year. I said if we signed him today we could get him 30% cheaper than we would if he had another stellar largely injury free year. Yes, we bare risk, but we get the discount. If he pitches lights out his market value increases. His signing today doesn't mean he's giving us a home town discount, it's a mutual share of the risk. There have been reports in the media he likes it here and would be open to an extension.

 

4. The last time we had a similar pitcher on an expiring contract it was Happ who had put a 3.78 FIP through 114 innings. We got Drury and McKinney. You guys are convinced we're going to get a prospect that will definitely help our team in the future. We could get s***.

 

5. The history of getting free agents to come here is not great. That's just a fact. I was first in line to praise bringing in Ryu. I don't know how you prospect lovers expect the Jays to compete in 2021, or 2022 without a half way decent pitching staff. Who are the above average pitchers that will be on this team that will allow them to compete in 2021, 2022, 2023? I'm all ears.

 

6. I stand by my assertion that we should extend Giles. I can even acknowledge that I understand both sides of what people might want to do. I understand that it's a general rule that giving money to relievers is stupid. I don't believe Giles is in the category of your average every day reliever and there are plenty of great modern day GMs that have given big contracts to relievers. Yes, a Giles extension comes with risk, but a trade of Giles doesn't guarantee that the prospects coming back will ever add anything to the team.

 

7. I don't think assembling bo, vlad, jansen, biggio, bichette, pearson all coming up within a year of each other is easy to replicate. If you are talking about signing betts in 2021 the window starts in 2021. Grab a pair of balls and quit trading players that can help you win in your window.

[Laika]

Imagine being so annoyingly wrong that people literally make accounts to tell you how wrong you are?

 

Just phenomenal stuff here on bjmb

[glory]

On what planet is Mookie Betts signing with the Jays contingent on Kenny G being extended? Mookie Betts will not give a flying f*** who the closer is if he gets 10/350.

 

The argument to not trade Giles doesn’t hold water. We literally just saw what can happen when you trade guys you don’t plan on extending with Stroman. Toronto ended up with Ryu, SWR and Kay

 

Ken Giles for 3/36 or Prospect A + Giles/Treinen/Hand/whoever for 3/36. Prospect A doesn’t have to fit a specific timeline. In fact, Prospect A could be part of maintaining a steady pipeline of quality cost controlled talent which is the ultimate goal.

 

Agreed. Betts turned down $200m after the 2017 season and that was on a loaded Red Sox team with Dombrowski throwing money around like a drunk man. Based on his quotes he seems to be looking forward to being a free agent. Give him the most money/term, and he'll probably sign. Of course it would help if the Jays looked like they were ascending as a team, which hopefully they will given the youth on the roster, but whether the team has a closer or not likely isn't going to make or break his decision.

 

If the offers for Giles suck right now, then hold him until the deadline and see what happens. If there's a deal out there now, then make it.

[saskjayfan]

Imagine being so annoyingly wrong that people literally make accounts to tell you how wrong you are?

 

Just phenomenal stuff here on bjmb

 

You made the account. Prospects are cool, parades are cooler. I'm not the only one who feels this way. These are subjective matters. I'm fine with people have different opinions and discussing things. There isn't a right or wrong. You honestly think another pair of Drury and McKinney is going to help this team win. You don't need to reply. I fully recognize the trade could yield more, I'm just pointing out an example of how it's far from a slam dunk that trading Giles will yield anything. So there's no right or wrong. Get off your high horse.

[DigitalRock]

Imagine being so annoyingly wrong that people literally make accounts to tell you how wrong you are?

 

Just phenomenal stuff here on bjmb

 

Lol

[Laika]

You made the account....Prospects are cool, parades are cooler.

 

I wish I made the account.

 

Friend, I know parades are cool. Take a look at the thread we are in that I started. Do you think I want this team to clutch it’s prospects forever and chase the $/WAR title?

 

And you don’t know me if you think I don’t need to reply. You will not get the last stupid word in on me, I will get the last stupid word in on you.

[Carlos Danger]

On a different topic, when will MLB f***ing realign the divisions? I hate that the Jays play the Yankees, Red Sox and Rays 115% of the time. ********.

 

Competition breeds innovation and need to be efficient. We get more exposure, and it feels much better to be part of and win one of the toughest divisions in baseball. It is fun and puts butts in the seats when the Red Sox and Yankees come into town. We are in the same time zone. No fnn way, and talk about boring snooze fest do I want to play Cleveland, Chicago, Minnesota, Detroit etc 19 times a year.. Pass me some rope so I can hang myself..

[Jimcanuck]

Blue Jays and Tigers were a great rivalry

[Carlos Danger]

Blue Jays and Tigers were a great rivalry

 

Yes, but, with that would be all the other boring ass teams.. When we had the Tigers, we still had New York and Boston etc.. I don't think we would with what they are proposing..

[Dick_Pole]

Holy s*** what a pile on. SK's using a lot of words to not express himself that well but I get his sentiment. If the Jays are in contention in July, and Giles is a significant contributor to that contention, then the team should consider keeping him for the year. Any other scenario, they should consider trading him. And of course the standard if they can trade him to improve the team both now and later should apply no matter what happens by the all-star break. As far as signing him beyond 2020 is concerned, that is a completely separate issue from trading or keeping him through 2020.

 

The OP has participated in the derailment of his own thread because his nerd instincts can't let this insignificant argument go.

[Dick_Pole]

I'm in favour of pulling back the unbalanced schedule. Playing four teams for half the schedule with natural rivals like the Tigers and Indians only 6-7 times is dumb. Ideally MLB gets two more teams and each league goes to two divisions of eight. Something like seven games each outside the division within the league, 12 within the division and 22 interleague games.

[EMK19]

Sign me up. Toronto even has a lame chant for him saved from the early 90's. Moo0oo0ooo00ookie.

 

Mooooo-kie! Mooooo-kie!

 

I remember the Mookie fever; his speed and all-out style of play definitely gave us a spark and helped quite a bit in our 1989 pennant run. Too bad he was already near the end of the road and didn’t do much the final two seasons though.

[Carlos Danger]

It probably wouldn't matter if we backed up the Brinks truck.. However, I think the fact we still have turf in the OF is a talking point among FA OF from what I understand... There is a perception that it will mess them up and possibly shorten their career, etc..

[Maico450]

Blue Jays and Tigers were a great rivalry

 

I was at the final game in Detroit in 1987. Tanana won it 1-0 over Jimmy Key eliminating the Jays. I live 40 miles East of Detroit, and back then We had a huge rivalry with both them and the Indians. Now we hardly play either team. Its like it does not really matter what those teams do.

However, now the Redsox/Yankee rivalry is even more intense. And it gives great satisfaction when we beat them. 2020 is going to be a fun year....

[wilko]

This thread really came off the rails.

[Perfect Game]

You made the account. Prospects are cool, parades are cooler. I'm not the only one who feels this way. These are subjective matters. I'm fine with people have different opinions and discussing things. There isn't a right or wrong. You honestly think another pair of Drury and McKinney is going to help this team win. You don't need to reply. I fully recognize the trade could yield more, I'm just pointing out an example of how it's far from a slam dunk that trading Giles will yield anything. So there's no right or wrong. Get off your high horse.

 

He didn't make the account. He did claim once that he was an indigenous woman & I believed him. I had to make a new account because I dropped Bell & couldn't use that email anymore. Feel free to look for my previous posts under the name Halladay's Gal. There aren't many. Maybe 3 or 4.

[Krylian]

This thread really came off the rails.

 

Ya. What's the link to that place to be again?

[wilko]

Ya. What's the link to that place to be again?

 

Here you go! https://is.gd/B9aZut