Blue Jays trade deadline (over)reaction thread

[M.E.]

The US media is not even mentioning Sanchez in the Astros plans. They mention Biagini first in the trade.

 

It’s a truer reflection of how most Jays fans over rate Sanchez.

[Boxcar]

It's frustrating seeing the folks defending these trades for reasons related to these moves being seen as the team's best possible solutions. It's like the logic goes: Atkins made good draft picks in the past; therefore, he's good at other areas when it comes to evaluating minor league/major league talent as well as managing a baseball team. Sure, his picks have been good, but from the trades he's made, he seems to be a pretty spotty negotiator (and a s***** communicator). Sanchez and, especially, Biagini had some control left, and neither NEEDED to be traded at the deadline. Stevenson did not need to be added to a trade for a soon-to-be 26 year-old 'prospect' who was promising 2 years ago. Stroman is a weird one, because I was underwhelmed by the return (I do like SWR, whose numbers seem similar to Pearson's at a younger age). However, his antics off the field leads me to believe that other teams were hesitant to take him on, which may have impacted his value (of course, hothead Bauer got a better return despite having somewhat similar numbers besides 2018, so what do I know?).

 

The hitting core looks pretty damn good, but it's going to be a challenge building a decent starting rotation that is good enough to contend in this division, even with prospects like Pearson and Manoah in the system. Overall, I don't trust this risk-averse ownership and management right now.

 

I can't speak for others but I did not like the Stroman trade but liked the Sanchez trade based on the fact that we actually got a valuable asset for 3 marginal assets. Guess it depends on your view of Fisher but the reward is very high for a low cost.

[TheAkman]

But why do we need another outfielder when we have a glut of players for those positions? Why after all the hype about not having anybody to come up and pitch?

[Barkerfan23]

The US media is not even mentioning Sanchez in the Astros plans. They mention Biagini first in the trade.

 

It’s a truer reflection of how most Jays fans over rate Sanchez.

 

he most likely does not make their playoff roster. They are probably thinking of working with him towards next year. Contract year will motivate him for sure.

[DigitalRock]

But why do we need another outfielder when we have a glut of players for those positions? Why after all the hype about not having anybody to come up and pitch?

 

Dude... You see our outfield? We had sogard and Drury out there it's awful.

[Barkerfan23]

Dude... You see our outfield? We had sogard and Drury out there it's awful.

 

I thought the three outfielders going forward were Gurriel Jr, Hernandez and Grichuk.

[BigCecil]

I don't like the timing of the Stro deal or the return much. Stro was so annoying, but when I look at the Bauer 3 way deal and the rush signing of Grich over a player like Stro it causes me to pause. I don't know what Stro wanted but maybe it was a joke. In terms of head cases...Bauer is right up there with Stro if not worse.

 

Some of the rationalizations of the deal puzzle me. They seem convenient. "Well those arms aren't in the Top 100 now but they could be next month" etc. Would we apply that same standard if we were giving up a Top 100 guy? "Well he is Top 100 but you know...next month he might not be, so no big deal". "Hey Giles is hurt now...but it shouldn't affect any deal...cause you know....he might be fine in couple weeks". lol

 

I guess one question is was Fisher worth Cal A. too? Sanchez has sucked since 2016, but we aren't winning next year so was there potential to try to resurrect more value in pen or rotation? Impossible to know now...he has been awful and I HATED watching him.

 

Rationale for Fisher in part is he is LHH OF. Ok, so is Billy McKinney. Fisher is 26. The sample size is small but 35% MLB K rate. His AAA numbers this year are interesting but again...small sample. He gets on base. For a s***** Sanchez with possible return to some form and an milquetoast RHP middle reliever? Sure. But Anderson too? I don't know. Seems expensive for us.

 

The rest of the trades with Hudson etc are fine...they were found money and Joe Smith kind of deals.

 

I don't pretend to be an expert in evaluating these deals. With what knowledge I have, I calls em' as I see em'.

Edited August 1, 2019 by BigCecil

[Todd Van Anus]

And next season if he's an absolute bum again, his value goes down even further.

 

Look, I know Fisher's numbers aren't sexy. But clearly this Front Office sees something in him, maybe he turns into a decent player. He definitely has some above average tools, let's see how it plays out.

 

I can see it already, that if we kept Sanchez. He would have some dumb blister issue again next season as an up and coming Free Agent and Jays fans would be up in arms that we didn't trade him the year prior.

 

There's really zero risk in keeping him another season. I mean unless you are super scared of losing a guy like Derek Fisher. That's the risk...Derek Fisher. Atkins didn't think this through.

[Brownie19]

I don't like the timing of the Stro deal or the return much. Stro was so annoying, but when I look at the Bauer 3 way deal and the rush signing of Grich over a player like Stro it causes me to pause. I don't know what Stro wanted but maybe it was a joke. In terms of head cases...Bauer is right up there with Stro if not worse.

 

Some of the rationalizations of the deal puzzle me. They seem convenient. "Well those arms aren't in the Top 100 now but they could be next month" etc. Would we apply that same standard if we were giving up a Top 100 guy? "Well he is Top 100 but you know...next month he might not be, so no big deal". "Hey Giles is hurt now...but it shouldn't affect any deal...cause you know....he might be fine in couple weeks". lol

 

I guess one question is was Fisher worth Cal A. too? Sanchez has sucked since 2016, but we aren't winning next year so was there potential to try to resurrect more value in pen or rotation? Impossible to know now...he has been awful and I HATED watching him.

 

Rationale for Fisher in part is he is LHH OF. Ok, so is Billy McKinney. Fisher is 26. The sample size is small but 35% MLB K rate. His AAA numbers this year are interesting but again...small sample. He gets on base. For a s***** Sanchez with possible return to some form and an milquetoast RHP middle reliever? Sure. But Anderson too? I don't know. Seems expensive for us.

 

The rest of the trades with Hudson etc are fine...they were found money and Joe Smith kind of deals.

 

I don't pretend to be an expert in evaluating these deals. With what knowledge I have, I calls em' as I see em'.

 

The argument that Sanchez would have dominated in the pen and provided more value in a trade next year is bogus. Even if he became an all-star closer like Greene....look what Detroit got for him this year. The best argument I've seen is extending Stroman would have been better than the return we got. I'd probably agree; however, without knowing how much he wanted or whether he was serious about re-signing - you can't judge that.

 

Are you so sure the return for Bauer was tangibly better than what the Jays got for Stro? I'm not.

 

The Grich thing has been bad, but I understand the logic. Sign him before he truly breaks out and get some value out of the deal. If he posted a 4 WAR year in 2019, we'd all s*** on Atkins for not extending him before he commanded big $$'s. The good news with Grich is the floor is pretty high. Good, versatile defense and solid base running. At worst, he's still a good 4th OFer.

[Brownie19]

I thought the three outfielders going forward were Gurriel Jr, Hernandez and Grichuk.

 

Great point. 4th OFers are never required. They don't, on average, play about 160 games per year.

[Barkerfan23]

one thing I did notice about Fisher, is that this season as oppose to prior seasons, his K rate has seen a considerable drop. This could have been a motivating factor

[Barkerfan23]

Great point. 4th OFers are never required. They don't, on average, play about 160 games per year.

 

Sigh, so the trade was for a 4th Outfielder?

[Brownie19]

There's really zero risk in keeping him another season. I mean unless you are super scared of losing a guy like Derek Fisher. That's the risk...Derek Fisher. Atkins didn't think this through.

 

Great point - Sanchez could have continued helping the Jays tank in 2020. We really gave up one of our most valuable pieces. Where else are we going to find a starter who can give us 150 innings of 6+ ERA baseball? Our 1st overall chances just dropped significantly.

[Brownie19]

Sigh, so the trade was for a 4th Outfielder?

 

Maybe. Trading one of the worst starting pitchers in baseball + average bullpen piece + prospect with ISO <.100 to get a quality 4th OFer with control is a win man.

 

He he excels, Teo or Grich probably become the 4th OFer. Again...the 4th OFer plays on average, 160 games per year. The 4th OFer is really important and is essentially an everyday player. Perhaps you could inform Kevin for us.

[EastCoaster]

And next season if he's an absolute bum again, his value goes down even further.

 

Look, I know Fisher's numbers aren't sexy. But clearly this Front Office sees something in him, maybe he turns into a decent player. He definitely has some above average tools, let's see how it plays out.

 

I can see it already, that if we kept Sanchez. He would have some dumb blister issue again next season as an up and coming Free Agent and Jays fans would be up in arms that we didn't trade him the year prior.

 

There was absolutely no risk in keeping Sanchez till the end of the season he was trending upwards towards his old form. You can't dispute if he finished season strong that his value would be better than that a potential 4th outfielder caliber player. I don't know how anybody can be clamoring about a part time potential player in return for 2 pitchers that had some success at MLB level.

 

The scouting report on Derek Fisher isn't all that great he has speed and hit the ball hard who strikeout a lot with a lack of instinct and defensive capabilities a too weak of an arm to be considered a centerfielder. Heck they already got a player in Tellez that can hit the ball hard and strikeout way too much and that why he's back in AAA.

 

This franchise will turn out to be a Tampa Bay part deux cheap controllable players enjoy Guerrero Jr, Bichette and Biggio while they're in control because a soon they start to want money they'll be gone for prospects.

[BigCecil]

The argument that Sanchez would have dominated in the pen and provided more value in a trade next year is bogus. Even if he became an all-star closer like Greene....look what Detroit got for him this year. The best argument I've seen is extending Stroman would have been better than the return we got. I'd probably agree; however, without knowing how much he wanted or whether he was serious about re-signing - you can't judge that.

 

Are you so sure the return for Bauer was tangibly better than what the Jays got for Stro? I'm not.

 

The Grich thing has been bad, but I understand the logic. Sign him before he truly breaks out and get some value out of the deal. If he posted a 4 WAR year in 2019, we'd all s*** on Atkins for not extending him before he commanded big $$'s. The good news with Grich is the floor is pretty high. Good, versatile defense and solid base running. At worst, he's still a good 4th OFer.

 

I don't subscribe to the notion that Sanchez would dominate in pen. Low K rate and high BB. Not enough swinging strikes. All we really have is quite strong performance there in a small sample size from 2015. League has changed since then. So has he.

 

Only question is could you resurrect more value that what we got now. We'll never know now.

 

On the Bauer 3 way...no I'm not sure. But that's what it looks like to me. Hey, if Kay and/or our 18 year pan out all will be forgotten/forgiven.

[Barkerfan23]

Maybe. Trading one of the worst starting pitchers in baseball + average bullpen piece + prospect with ISO <.100 to get a quality 4th OFer with control is a win man.

 

He he excels, Teo or Grich probably become the 4th OFer. Again...the 4th OFer plays on average, 160 games per year. The 4th OFer is really important and is essentially an everyday player. Perhaps you could inform Kevin for us.

 

Fair enough

 

I guess most of my bitterness around it has to do with following Cal Stevenson.

[Brownie19]

Fair enough

 

I guess most of my bitterness around it has to do with following Cal Stevenson.

 

I understand that. Cal's a fun guy to follow. I love OBP guys too, but the reality is - guys with no power usually flop as soon as they start facing pitchers who can throw strikes consistently.

[Brownie19]

There was absolutely no risk in keeping Sanchez till the end of the season he was trending upwards towards his old form. You can't dispute if he finished season strong that his value would be better than that a potential 4th outfielder caliber player. I don't know how anybody can be clamoring about a part time potential player in return for 2 pitchers that had some success at MLB level.

 

The scouting report on Derek Fisher isn't all that great he has speed and hit the ball hard who strikeout a lot with a lack of instinct and defensive capabilities a too weak of an arm to be considered a centerfielder. Heck they already got a player in Tellez that can hit the ball hard and strikeout way too much and that why he's back in AAA.

 

This franchise will turn out to be a Tampa Bay part deux cheap controllable players enjoy Guerrero Jr, Bichette and Biggio while they're in control because a soon they start to want money they'll be gone for prospects.

 

That is utter nonsense. If Sanchez finished the season strong, he would have been worth more than a 4th OFer? Next year is his walk year. If he became what Roark was this year (which would be a massive turn around for someone who's been s*** for 3 straight years)....the market for Roark was Jameson Hannah - a soon to be 23 year old in A+ ball. His upside? probably a 4th OFer at best.

 

It's also utter nonsense to suggest this team is running the team like TB and will just trade the young guys for prospects. The team needed to rebuild after 2015 and 2016. My 7 year old knew that. You need waves of young talent to create a sustainable winner. That's what we're doing. You have no idea what this FO will do once the team gets good. Don't assume.

 

What a f***ing brutal take on things man.

[Frag]

You have no idea what this FO will do once the team gets good. Don't assume.

 

Technically, we do in 2016, since that team was run by Atkins and Shapiro.

[WryNGinger]

I guess waking up this morning, you realize that it isn't important that Atkins sucks at trading, if he can draft his way and international sign his way into a championship ball club.

 

If I look at the ball club, Gurriel jr, Bichette, Biggio were all the current regimes drafting and international signings. We may soon have another top 10 prospect in Pearson. So there is that.

 

This takes away the "draft the best talent available" argument though. The idea is to amass the greatest depth and deal from a position of overabundance to fill holes. If you can't trade worth s*** you lose your collected talent for less than you should have and end up with a weaker team.

[glory]

This takes away the "draft the best talent available" argument though. The idea is to amass the greatest depth and deal from a position of overabundance to fill holes. If you can't trade worth s*** you lose your collected talent for less than you should have and end up with a weaker team.

 

Doesn't Atkins contract end after 2020? Seems like a great time to give him one more draft and international FA class (assuming there is no draft for that), and then when the team is looking to take the next step, fire him and Buntoyo and hire real talent.

[EastCoaster]

That is utter nonsense. If Sanchez finished the season strong, he would have been worth more than a 4th OFer? Next year is his walk year. If he became what Roark was this year (which would be a massive turn around for someone who's been s*** for 3 straight years)....the market for Roark was Jameson Hannah - a soon to be 23 year old in A+ ball. His upside? probably a 4th OFer at best.

 

It's also utter nonsense to suggest this team is running the team like TB and will just trade the young guys for prospects. The team needed to rebuild after 2015 and 2016. My 7 year old knew that. You need waves of young talent to create a sustainable winner. That's what we're doing. You have no idea what this FO will do once the team gets good. Don't assume.

 

What a f***ing brutal take on things man.

 

 

That's biggest crock of s*** I ever heard pitching has always been a hard commodity to find especially good one Sanchez has proven he can be on the top with the big guys he did it before. Unfortunately injuries plague him for the last couple of season. He just started to show now some of the stuff he has that can make him a top performer again. Teams will gamble on pitching and the Astros fleeced the Blue Jays on this deal. Unlike what everyone thinks the Astros is looking at Sanchez for depth in their rotation especially with the uncertainty status of Brad Peacock his shoulder problem.

 

Derek Fisher was a former top-100 prospect who has seen his stock fall in recent years. He debuted in 2017, but has gone back and forth between the majors and minors due to ineffectiveness. In 312 career plate appearances he has hit only .201/.282/.367 and has struck out a whopping 35 percent of the time. With the kind of talent the Astros have had in the outfield, that kind of performance was not going to meet the bar for playing time. Now does that sound like a good return for Sanchez, Biagini and Stevenson. Even if Sanchez bombed out you couldn't get much worst in return scrapping the bottom of barrels.

[Brownie19]

That's biggest crock of s*** I ever heard pitching has always been a hard commodity to find especially good one Sanchez has proven he can be on the top with the big guys he did it before. Unfortunately injuries plague him for the last couple of season. He just started to show now some of the stuff he has that can make him a top performer again. Teams will gamble on pitching and the Astros fleeced the Blue Jays on this deal. Unlike what everyone thinks the Astros is looking at Sanchez for depth in their rotation especially with the uncertainty status of Brad Peacock his shoulder problem.

 

Derek Fisher was a former top-100 prospect who has seen his stock fall in recent years. He debuted in 2017, but has gone back and forth between the majors and minors due to ineffectiveness. In 312 career plate appearances he has hit only .201/.282/.367 and has struck out a whopping 35 percent of the time. With the kind of talent the Astros have had in the outfield, that kind of performance was not going to meet the bar for playing time. Now does that sound like a good return for Sanchez, Biagini and Stevenson. Even if Sanchez bombed out you couldn't get much worst in return scrapping the bottom of barrels.

 

Kyle Tucker also can't crack the Astros OF and was significantly worse than Fisher last year. You think he sucks too?

 

You must have LOVED the Clay Buchholz signing this spring. He was good in 2010, 2013 and 2015. He's "proven he can be on the top with the big guys he did it before".

[Frag]

SWR ranked 9th (47 FV, which is odd), Kay ranked 12th (45 FV), Hatch ranked 21st (40 FV), Stevenson ranked 29th (35+ FV), and Johnston ranked 37th (35 FV). Fisher unranked.

 

Descriptions:

 

SWR: Advanced (physically and technically) teenage righty with a chance for three above-average pitches and control.

Kay: A lefty into the mid-90s with fringe command, but plus secondary stuff.

Hatch: Fastball/slider relief prospect who started throwing a cutter just a few starts before he was traded, which may give him a better chance to start.

Stevenson: Speedy, contact-oriented hitter with no clear position. Has beaten up on young pitching thus far.

Johnston: Sits 90-94, touches 97, above-average slider. Currently starting.

[Orgfiller]

SWR ranked 9th (47 FV, which is odd), Kay ranked 12th (45 FV), Hatch ranked 21st (40 FV), Stevenson ranked 29th (35+ FV), and Johnston ranked 37th (35 FV). Fisher unranked.

 

Fisher doesn't have prospect eligibility. He'd probably be a 40/40+ depending on preference.

[connorp]

Kyle Tucker also can't crack the Astros OF and was significantly worse than Fisher last year. You think he sucks too?

 

You must have LOVED the Clay Buchholz signing this spring. He was good in 2010, 2013 and 2015. He's "proven he can be on the top with the big guys he did it before".

 

KT is also not 26, so there’s that

[Brownie19]

KT is also not 26, so there’s that

 

Obviously. But he's a top 15 prospect in baseball who's now 22. He was awful in the majors last year and they haven't given him a sniff this year either. If he can't get extended playing time in the Astros OF, how the f*** is Fisher going to?

[Brownie19]

SWR ranked 9th (47 FV, which is odd), Kay ranked 12th (45 FV), Hatch ranked 21st (40 FV), Stevenson ranked 29th (35+ FV), and Johnston ranked 37th (35 FV). Fisher unranked.

 

Descriptions:

 

SWR: Advanced (physically and technically) teenage righty with a chance for three above-average pitches and control.

Kay: A lefty into the mid-90s with fringe command, but plus secondary stuff.

Hatch: Fastball/slider relief prospect who started throwing a cutter just a few starts before he was traded, which may give him a better chance to start.

Stevenson: Speedy, contact-oriented hitter with no clear position. Has beaten up on young pitching thus far.

Johnston: Sits 90-94, touches 97, above-average slider. Currently starting.

 

It's bizarre they say Stevenson doesn't have a position when reports were he was phenomenal defensively in CF

[BillSupra]

There was absolutely no risk in keeping Sanchez till the end of the season he was trending upwards towards his old form. You can't dispute if he finished season strong that his value would be better than that a potential 4th outfielder caliber player. I don't know how anybody can be clamoring about a part time potential player in return for 2 pitchers that had some success at MLB level.

 

The scouting report on Derek Fisher isn't all that great he has speed and hit the ball hard who strikeout a lot with a lack of instinct and defensive capabilities a too weak of an arm to be considered a centerfielder. Heck they already got a player in Tellez that can hit the ball hard and strikeout way too much and that why he's back in AAA.

 

This franchise will turn out to be a Tampa Bay part deux cheap controllable players enjoy Guerrero Jr, Bichette and Biggio while they're in control because a soon they start to want money they'll be gone for prospects.

 

Trending upward from being the worst starting pitcher in the league, is still pretty close to being the worst starting pitcher in the league. I mean in his last start as a BlueJay Sanchez still gave up 4 runs. He may not have walked anyone, but his velo was quite down and after the first few innings he was giving up hits.