We are in year 4 of the Shatkins era. How much time do you give them?

[Brownie19]

We aren’t even in the bottom 10 of average attendance this year.

 

http://www.espn.com/mlb/attendance

 

Clearly there are LOTS of teams that can survive on the Jays current attendance figures. Why are people so comfortable spewing utter nonsense?

 

Imagine being Minnesota in a brand new stadium with one of the best records in baseball (or Tampa in a s***** stadium, but with a great team). That's a tough position.

[wk680]

http://www.espn.com/mlb/attendance

 

Clearly there are LOTS of teams that can survive on the Jays current attendance figures. Why are people so comfortable spewing utter nonsense?

 

Imagine being Minnesota in a brand new stadium with one of the best records in baseball (or Tampa in a s***** stadium, but with a great team). That's a tough position.

 

You mean that 'brand new' Target Field that first opened 9 years ago? Actually it has been a cool and rainy spring so far and highlights the peculiarity that they did not include a retractable roof in MSP, of all places. In contrast, Miller Park which opened in 2001 has a retractable roof and a reported construction cost of only $400M USD ($566 M in 2018 inflation adjusted dollars). It makes me think the Jays should just build new from scratch (like the Rangers did) instead of wasting money trying to renovate the outdated Skydome.

 

ETA: that he is not convincing Corporate to go this route says more to me than anything about what a small thinker that Shapiro is. He should be convincing them to go big or go home.

[leaffie]

Keep watching

[leaffie]

It is not utter nonsense that the Jays attendance figures have dropped since Shatkins took over. Those teams that you think are surviving on the Jays figures are not taking in Canadian dollars and paying out in american, a differrence of 30%

And you think that attendance will pick up this season with the team that is taking the field each night.

 

Hardly.

[wk680]

It is not utter nonsense that the Jays attendance figures have dropped since Shatkins took over. Those teams that you think are surviving on the Jays figures are not taking in Canadian dollars and paying out in american, a differrence of 30%

And you think that attendance will pick up this season with the team that is taking the field each night.

 

Hardly.

 

Another thing to consider is those numbers are likely 'paid attendance', not actual butts in the seats. Looking at tonight's crowd with our only good starting pitcher on the mound reminds me of the final days of the Expos (maybe about 10K actually in attendance). This is pathetic and I agree with you not sustainable for very long. I imagine TV viewership has taken a similiar (maybe not quite as dramatic) decline.

[Deadpool]

You mean that 'brand new' Target Field that first opened 9 years ago? Actually it has been a cool and rainy spring so far and highlights the peculiarity that they did not include a retractable roof in MSP, of all places. In contrast, Miller Park which opened in 2001 has a retractable roof and a reported construction cost of only $400M USD ($566 M in 2018 inflation adjusted dollars). It makes me think the Jays should just build new from scratch (like the Rangers did) instead of wasting money trying to renovate the outdated Skydome.

 

ETA: that he is not convincing Corporate to go this route says more to me than anything about what a small thinker that Shapiro is. He should be convincing them to go big or go home.

 

Where do they build a new stadium in Toronto? The location of the dome is WAY too perfect... Going to be tough to build a new one from scratch.

[Deadpool]

It is not utter nonsense that the Jays attendance figures have dropped since Shatkins took over. Those teams that you think are surviving on the Jays figures are not taking in Canadian dollars and paying out in american, a differrence of 30%

And you think that attendance will pick up this season with the team that is taking the field each night.

 

Hardly.

 

Rogers makes their money off the Jays on TV, attendance is just a bonus for them. The Jays fill airtime for Rogers, that's their entire purpose.

[wk680]

Where do they build a new stadium in Toronto? The location of the dome is WAY too perfect... Going to be tough to build a new one from scratch.

 

I realize that location for a new stadium is an issue, and I am not familiar enough to suggest a possible alternative location. Although I recall reading a few years back that there was one or two locations for a potential new stadium on the waterfront which were written about. By now, I suppose those areas may have been otherwise developed. I just feel like the reason the Dome renovations are not really proceeding is that they realize they can't make silk out of a sow's ear. Am I missing something ?

[Deadpool]

I realize that location for a new stadium is an issue, and I am not familiar enough to suggest a possible alternative location. Although I recall reading a few years back that there was one or two locations for a potential new stadium on the waterfront which were written about. By now, I suppose those areas may have been otherwise developed. I just feel like the reason the Dome renovations are not really proceeding is that they realize they can't make silk out of a sow's ear. Am I missing something ?

 

The big problem is they'd have to put 9 figures into renovations to put in natural grass, which is (probably) the ultimate goal. You need a retractable dome for Toronto baseball, which they have already... Also, don't see the current governments for the city or province investing heavily in a new stadium ('cause they know damn well that Rogers won't be moving the team...)

[Abomination]

The big problem is they'd have to put 9 figures into renovations to put in natural grass, which is (probably) the ultimate goal. You need a retractable dome for Toronto baseball, which they have already... Also, don't see the current governments for the city or province investing heavily in a new stadium ('cause they know damn well that Rogers won't be moving the team...)

 

I think the natural grass won't happen now. There's several stadiums being built that are putting in a new kind of artificial turf now who are currently playing on grass. I think we'll see them take that approach, but they'll probably wait until those stadiums open so they can point to it when fans complain that they were promised grass.

[Brownie19]

It is not utter nonsense that the Jays attendance figures have dropped since Shatkins took over. Those teams that you think are surviving on the Jays figures are not taking in Canadian dollars and paying out in american, a differrence of 30%

And you think that attendance will pick up this season with the team that is taking the field each night.

 

Hardly.

 

Where did anyone say it was utter nonsense that the Jays attendance figures have dropped since Shatkins took over?

 

YOU said "A major league team can not survive on the attendance figures they are posting right now."....that IS utter nonsense. We're not even bottom 10 in the league. There is profit sharing in the league. Teams can survive on 20K per night.

 

You may not like it - but don't make s*** up to support your narrative.

[Jimcanuck]

Where do they build a new stadium in Toronto? The location of the dome is WAY too perfect... Going to be tough to build a new one from scratch.

 

Wasn't Downsview Park identified as a possible stadium location?

[Deadpool]

Wasn't Downsview Park identified as a possible stadium location?

 

I used to live pretty near there... I don't see that as a reasonable location for a stadium of that size (including the parking and transit required for that) at all.

 

When the Dome was originally built, one of the possible locations they talked about was the old Maclean Hunter site at Yonge and the 401, but I'm pretty sure that's 80bajillion condos now.

[wk680]

The big problem is they'd have to put 9 figures into renovations to put in natural grass, which is (probably) the ultimate goal. You need a retractable dome for Toronto baseball, which they have already... Also, don't see the current governments for the city or province investing heavily in a new stadium ('cause they know damn well that Rogers won't be moving the team...)

 

Rogers is so BIG that they do not need corporate welfare to help build a new stadium, but I feel the local government should pitch in something to help. As i posted earl;ier, a retractable roof stadium with grass was done for reasonable cost in Milwaukee (similar climate to TO), so why can't the Jays do something like what they have with a little extra for under $1B CAD. The capital expenditure is a tax write-off for Rogers, so not like they are actually spending all that money.

[Spanky99]

Rogers is so BIG that they do not need corporate welfare to help build a new stadium, but I feel the local government should pitch in something to help. As i posted earl;ier, a retractable roof stadium with grass was done for reasonable cost in Milwaukee (similar climate to TO), so why can't the Jays do something like what they have with a little extra for under $1B CAD. The capital expenditure is a tax write-off for Rogers, so not like they are actually spending all that money.

 

With grass as reasonable? Really, it'll cost the money you boner at???

[leaffie]

So far this year attendance is down by almost 30 %. They didnt even sell out opening day and they had an announced attendance on April 1 of 10,460. This will not get better when they trade away stroman sanchez and smoak. We might not be in the bottom ten right now but we most certainly will be. You can call it anything you want, but these are figures , not s***.

[wk680]

With grass as reasonable? Really, it'll cost the money you boner at???

 

Milwaukee has retractable roof, real grass and similar climate as Toronto. The stadium is reported to have cost about $400M USD in 2001 (about $550 M in 2018 inflation-adjusted USD). So I am saying build a new stadium from scratch on the Milwaukee model.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller_Park

 

ETA: see Toronto/milwaukee climate comparison in the link:https://weatherspark.com/compare/y/19863~14288/Comparison-of-the-Average-Weather-in-Toronto-and-Milwaukee

Edited May 22, 2019 by wk680

[Bobthe4th]

So far this year attendance is down by almost 30 %. They didnt even sell out opening day and they had an announced attendance on April 1 of 10,460. This will not get better when they trade away stroman sanchez and smoak. We might not be in the bottom ten right now but we most certainly will be. You can call it anything you want, but these are figures , not s***.

 

This is all true. What isn’t true is that this somehow makes the team unsustainable.

 

Look at Miami. They average under 10k (less than half of our attendance), have a history of f***ing over fans, are in an tourist area where there are many other things people can do for 2-3 hours, have traded virtually all their decent players, and their most exciting pitcher killed himself in a cocaine fueled boat crash. Yet they are in no danger of relocation / contraction.

[Bobthe4th]

The majority of people who fill MLB venues with over 30,000 capacity are not die hard fans that will watch no matter what. Those kind of attendances are inflated by people who have a choice of what they spend their disposable income on, where baseball is competing with other entertainment.

 

This is especially true in North America where you get a lot more families in the crowd and it’s a whole entertainment package. When the team isn’t putting on a show (e.g. they are losing and don’t have any famous players/stars) that entertainment dollar gets spent on a film, or a theme park, or a basketball game etc.

 

So we shouldn’t be worried in year one (or 2 if you count last year) of a rebuild as when the team is successful again a Jays ticket will again be a sought after entertainment spend.

 

The closed system of no relegation, revenue sharing, and higher draft picks for the worst teams should also ensure no team ever goes through a 8-10 year rebuild where they bottom out for the full period. IMO that’s the kind of length that could potentially kill a franchise and force a relocation.

[Spanky99]

Milwaukee has retractable roof, real grass and similar climate as Toronto. The stadium is reported to have cost about $400M USD in 2001 (about $550 M in 2018 inflation-adjusted USD). So I am saying build a new stadium from scratch on the Milwaukee model.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller_Park

 

ETA: see Toronto/milwaukee climate comparison in the link:https://weatherspark.com/compare/y/19863~14288/Comparison-of-the-Average-Weather-in-Toronto-and-Milwaukee

 

I've never said it's impossible, a new stadium is obviously more feasible.

[Spanky99]

So far this year attendance is down by almost 30 %. They didnt even sell out opening day and they had an announced attendance on April 1 of 10,460. This will not get better when they trade away stroman sanchez and smoak. We might not be in the bottom ten right now but we most certainly will be. You can call it anything you want, but these are figures , not s***.

 

When the Jays start winning with a refueled dollar cap, the fans will comeback, it looks bleak now, but it'll soon turn around obviously.

[wk680]

I've never said it's impossible, a new stadium is obviously more feasible.

 

Yeah if only they can find and secure a suitable location.....

[Spanky99]

Yeah if only they can find and secure a suitable location.....

 

Waterfront.

[Dick_Pole]

Ontario Place would be the most obvious spot I can think of, but I don't want to have to travel to that area again, it sucks getting there by transit.

 

But this stadium talk is pure madness...unless Rogers sells the Dome location to condo developers then it makes sense. But not one taxpayer cent.

[Travis_Snider]

build one of those man made islands like dubai and plop it on that.

[Deadpool]

Rogers is so BIG that they do not need corporate welfare to help build a new stadium, but I feel the local government should pitch in something to help. As i posted earl;ier, a retractable roof stadium with grass was done for reasonable cost in Milwaukee (similar climate to TO), so why can't the Jays do something like what they have with a little extra for under $1B CAD. The capital expenditure is a tax write-off for Rogers, so not like they are actually spending all that money.

 

I am about seven thousand bajillion percent against governments funding stadiums. So, that's a no from me, dawg.

[TheHurl]

Shapiro has already said that they will be investing in improving the Rogers Centre...there will be no new stadium unless it coincides with another major event (Olympics are the only one I can think of, as they already have a plan for a World Cup and it doesn't include a new stadium). Only other way a new stadium would happen in the near future is if it's combined with a casino resort plan.

[Ex Player]

build one of those man made islands like dubai and plop it on that

The Lefties and treehuggers would never go for that, unfortunately.

 

Those islands are called "polders" in Holland BTW

 

[bones10]

Hard to see the path to the playoffs in the next two years.

[Superdood]

Hard to see the path to the playoffs in the next two years.

 

If they can make it above a 4th place finish in the division in the next 2 years I'd be impressed. This team has a long long way to go yet.