So, 4 years in, are you guys still as confident in Shapiro and/or Atkins?

[Ray]

I'm pretty open to the idea of exploring an extension with Giles too if he's still healthy in a few months. He's had no arm issues, has been consistently excellent, and might be a bit undervalued because of his ERA fluctuations. If the team can get him for like 3/25 + a team option or something later in the summer, that's preferable to trading him IMO.

 

I wouldn't be opposed to it, but I'd also listen on offers for Giles. There's going to be a lot of contenders this season looking for a proven closer (Phillies, Braves, Red Sox, etc.). That combined with the inflated reliever prices at the deadline anyways, you could be looking at a massive haul for Giles.

[TheHurl]

Shapiro has done everything he is supposed to do. Costs are better controlled. He got the Dunedin deal done and he's acknowledged that the Dome is not a destination and needs to be more fan friendly. Whether a PR move or not the increasing of pay and putting additional amenities in every minor league park, puts Toronto in a leadership position which they haven't been in anything for many years. They traditionally (for the last 30 years or so) have been near the last to make moves like this. They appear to be anticipating trends in non baseball situations and listening to the fanbase (the everything is $5 concession on each level comes to mind). Most importantly he is not the guy that we all thought he was who interferes in baseball operations.

 

Atkins has shed payroll down (I'm going to guess that projected revenue is also well down) and has flexibility in the coming years. He's got some higher ceiling guys but nothing is a sure thing as far as success goes. The trend of paying the guys you have bodes well for the team in my opinion. I don't know the 3 year plan for payroll, and I'm sure it's tied to projected revenue but Jays fans will not be happy if this team is still on the Rays level in as short as 2 years.

 

The bad or at least potential bad: The Jays are trying to do things differently right now. Not that much different than the most of the rest of baseball but different than what many of these young players are used to. Despite the success of the Astros, Cubs, Indians and Rays there is and will be for a while a rejection to change, and all 4 of these organizations have talked about systemic buy-in. When something falters early there is a strong potential that these young players don't buy in. That is the concern with hitting right now. It's so bad that I'd be concerned for losing these guys. Players aren't much different than fans...they react to small samples. I know others are hoping for a complete tanking this year...but I think the org needs a good amount to show they belong.

 

The prospects are still the key for this org. If a few hit close to their ceiling there will be some really competitive teams. If we have an abnormal amount of busts there will be revolt.

[Ray]

I disagree. If you look at the Morales/Encarnacion/Bautista situation holistically, they 95% read the market correctly. Morales' contract was better than Edwin's and light years ahead of what Bautista might have gotten if Beeston was still around.

 

I'd rather pay $33M to have Morales on a bad team than pay $60M to have Edwin on a slightly better but still bad team. He wasn't going to make an ounce of difference on those 2017-2018 teams.

[Carlos Danger]

I think to sum up Shapiro and Atkins.. They have a good business plan on paper.. I am not sure when they promised a Return on investment/Profits (WINS) to Rogers.

 

The fact is, everything you do as an organization whether drafting, spring training facilities, technology, etc is all to achieve success at for the ML team. So far they have not achieved that. I think historically, GMs have had 5 years to show results. I think we are going in the right direction, but again at the end of the day we still do not have a return on investment/profits (WINS).

 

It is great that we have a top 5 system or that our AA or A ball teams are winning... However, our ML team is still not. I am willing to give them until the 2020 team. If the 2020 team does not get a playoff spot or is in the hunt until the last day.. I will think that we need to start questioning their performance.

[Frag]

Another player I forgot Shatkins got: Joe Biagini.

 

For a Rule 5 pick, that turned out damn well!

[tercet]

They have done alot of stupid/really bad things

1. Punting on the whole 2018 season to sign veteran presents to end up 500~ then trade most of them for 22/23/24 aa/aaa fodder, when we should have begin tank/teardown then in 18 season.

2. Not trading Trading Donaldson in 17/18 offseason, then trading him for random AAA 27 year old pitcher.

3. 15/16 1st picks seem to be busts/meh at best (Zeuch,Warmouth)

4. Letting Gurribabip play in the majors, when he clearly isn't ready on offense or defense, when he probably will never be, and over-hype him through the media believing he is actually good. (Im ok with taking the chance on him with the contract).

5. Prospect hype > actual skill (SRF, Pearson, Bichette, Pardinho) have major flaws that will be exposed in the majors.

 

The only good things..

1. Not signing too many bad contracts..

2. Not signing Sanchez to a long term contract

3. Stole Grichuk from Cardinals

 

Overall Grade Now B-, trending downwards as most of the prospects hype > actual skill when the are exposed/promoted to the majors and everyone will realize most of them aren't any good.

[Laika]

Yes tercet, good job including Pearson, Bo, and Pardinho in the list of "stupid/really bad things".

 

How f***ing dare Ross Atkins draft/acquire Bo Bichette! Ugh!

[Carlos Danger]

Another player I forgot Shatkins got: Joe Biagini.

 

For a Rule 5 pick, that turned out damn well!

 

While technically Atkins was there for a few days when this occurred and to his credit would have had to approve it, from various accounts, our signing of Estrada, Happ and getting Biagini was all LaCava..

[tercet]

How many times are we going to have to go over this? How many times are u guys gonna drool over prospects with enormous flaws?

 

Did you not learn anything from being a delusional hech fan 10 years ago? Oh look he is out of the majors at 29.

[KevinGregg]

How many times are we going to have to go over this? How many times are u guys gonna drool over prospects with enormous flaws?

 

Did you not learn anything from being a delusional hech fan 10 years ago? Oh look he is out of the majors at 29.

 

I don't believe we've gone over Bo before.

What are his enourmous flaws?

[Deadpool]

They have done alot of stupid/really bad things

1. Punting on the whole 2018 season to sign veteran presents to end up 500~ then trade most of them for 22/23/24 aa/aaa fodder, when we should have begin tank/teardown then in 18 season.

2. Not trading Trading Donaldson in 17/18 offseason, then trading him for random AAA 27 year old pitcher.

3. 15/16 1st picks seem to be busts/meh at best (Zeuch,Warmouth)

4. Letting Gurribabip play in the majors, when he clearly isn't ready on offense or defense, when he probably will never be, and over-hype him through the media believing he is actually good. (Im ok with taking the chance on him with the contract).

5. Prospect hype > actual skill (SRF, Pearson, Bichette, Pardinho) have major flaws that will be exposed in the majors.

 

The only good things..

1. Not signing too many bad contracts..

2. Not signing Sanchez to a long term contract

3. Stole Grichuk from Cardinals

 

Overall Grade Now B-, trending downwards as most of the prospects hype > actual skill when the are exposed/promoted to the majors and everyone will realize most of them aren't any good.

 

Speaking of trending downwards...

[Brownie19]

How many times are we going to have to go over this? How many times are u guys gonna drool over prospects with enormous flaws?

 

Did you not learn anything from being a delusional hech fan 10 years ago? Oh look he is out of the majors at 29.

 

f*** you're insufferable.

[Laika]

So to be clear....

 

A list of really bad / retarded things that Ross Atkins and Merv Shapiro have done:

 

1. Draft Bo Bichette

2. Draft Nate Pearson

3. Sign Eric Pardinho

 

all bad. really stupid and bad moves. should of just drafted nobody

[Jonn]

My confidence is as high or as high as it ever has been. They have done everything they said they were going to do. They are building a foundation of having success. Sure I don't agree with every transaction they made. But some of those issues were related to ownership not the tandem themselves. This process probably goes along even faster if they were able to rebuild sooner. Bautista should have never been brought back after he was qualified. Donaldson should have been traded way sooner to maximize the best return. And I can nitpick at things like the Morales signing but I'm not going to.

 

In terms of everything else this is the best farm system talent we have had since the 80's. They are building the Spring Training facility they wanted. And everything is going along pretty well so far I would say. A couple more moves need to be made but I am sure they will be made by the trade deadline. And were going to see a lot of these exciting young hitters as early as this year.

[DigitalRock]

Is this guy Tercet using satire... Or really dumb?

[P2F]

Is this guy Tercet using satire... Or really dumb?

 

Well, it's not satire...

[bones10]

How long into a board meet up would tercet last before getting his s*** pushed in

[Deadpool]

How long into a board meet up would tercet last before getting his s*** pushed in

 

.. Do you think we want to f*** tercet?

[BTS]

How long into a board meet up would tercet last before getting his s*** pushed in

 

If you’re asking how long it would take for someone to solicit him for gay sex, I think he’d be waiting awhile. If you’re using that as a euphemism for someone doing violence to him, I think it would happen very quickly.

[bones10]

If you’re asking how long it would take for someone to solicit him for gay sex, I think he’d be waiting awhile. If you’re using that as a euphemism for someone doing violence to him, I think it would happen very quickly.

 

whynotboth.gif

[Grant77]

My confidence is as high or as high as it ever has been. They have done everything they said they were going to do. They are building a foundation of having success. Sure I don't agree with every transaction they made. But some of those issues were related to ownership not the tandem themselves. This process probably goes along even faster if they were able to rebuild sooner. Bautista should have never been brought back after he was qualified. Donaldson should have been traded way sooner to maximize the best return. And I can nitpick at things like the Morales signing but I'm not going to.

 

In terms of everything else this is the best farm system talent we have had since the 80's. They are building the Spring Training facility they wanted. And everything is going along pretty well so far I would say. A couple more moves need to be made but I am sure they will be made by the trade deadline. And were going to see a lot of these exciting young hitters as early as this year.

 

I agree with a lot of this, but I don't think everything is going as well as they would like. Ideally the last couple of years of selling would have produced some core pieces going forward, but we really don't have much going for us.

 

In our last rebuild that led to playoff appearances we had brought in guys from other organizations like Bautista, Encarnacion, Escobar, Morrow, Rasmus, and Lawrie within the first 2 years to go along with an equally strong farm system.

 

Obviously that group had varying levels of success, but I'm not seeing the same level of talent in guys like Hernandez, McKinney, Drury, Thornton, etc. Are they key parts of the next contending Jays team? Ken Giles is the only guy that I think fits the mould and he'll be very expensive.

 

I think they've done a very good job adding to a deceptively strong farm system that they inherited and I like their player development strategy. Hopefully it will start bearing fruit soon and hopefully some of our roster will step up this year. It seems that our only good players are young holdovers from before they were hired or recent FA signings.

[bendera3]

I'd actually be interested in seeing like a Top 30 prospects list for each season along with maybe a couple guys who weren't well regarded but ended up as something (ex. Chris Woodward). Anyone know if it exists or be interested in doing it. Maybe one of the prospect guys? I think it could be rather neat.

[Boxcar]

.. Do you think we want to f*** tercet?

 

I kinda want to hate-f*** him. Does that count?

[Deadpool]

I kinda want to hate-f*** him. Does that count?

 

No judgment here, I'm one of those... what do you guys call us... "soy boys" that's down for whatever people wanna do.

[Laika]

I agree with a lot of this, but I don't think everything is going as well as they would like. Ideally the last couple of years of selling would have produced some core pieces going forward, but we really don't have much going for us.

 

In our last rebuild that led to playoff appearances we had brought in guys from other organizations like Bautista, Encarnacion, Escobar, Morrow, Rasmus, and Lawrie within the first 2 years to go along with an equally strong farm system.

 

Obviously that group had varying levels of success, but I'm not seeing the same level of talent in guys like Hernandez, McKinney, Drury, Thornton, etc. Are they key parts of the next contending Jays team? Ken Giles is the only guy that I think fits the mould and he'll be very expensive.

I think they've done a very good job adding to a deceptively strong farm system that they inherited and I like their player development strategy. Hopefully it will start bearing fruit soon and hopefully some of our roster will step up this year. It seems that our only good players are young holdovers from before they were hired or recent FA signings.

 

Grichuk.

 

Acquisitions like McKinney, Hernandez, Drury, Paulino, Merryweather, Thornton, Perez, Espinal, Spanberger, etc. need to be given a few years before they can be judged.

 

Bautista was mediocre his first ~500 PA with Toronto. Edwin 900 PA - to the point that AA literally waived him and got extremely lucky to get him back from Oakland.

 

Kind of weird that you would even reference players like Lawrie, Morrow, Rasmus, Yunel when they had nothing to do with Toronto's playoff teams. I guess they were exciting value-based acquisitions. Atkins has made different forms of value-based acquisitions though; their whole MO has been value-hoarding at all levels of the org.

Edited April 6, 2019 by Laika

[5ToolPhenom]

I agree with a lot of this, but I don't think everything is going as well as they would like. Ideally the last couple of years of selling would have produced some core pieces going forward, but we really don't have much going for us.

 

In our last rebuild that led to playoff appearances we had brought in guys from other organizations like Bautista, Encarnacion, Escobar, Morrow, Rasmus, and Lawrie within the first 2 years to go along with an equally strong farm system.

 

Obviously that group had varying levels of success, but I'm not seeing the same level of talent in guys like Hernandez, McKinney, Drury, Thornton, etc. Are they key parts of the next contending Jays team? Ken Giles is the only guy that I think fits the mould and he'll be very expensive.

 

Nicely put. That's one of my major qualms as well and you articulated it perfectly. I'd even add Grichuk to your list, I mean sure, he's decent enough but he probably isn't a starter on most contending teams.

 

I'm just not seeing the overall framework for being a contending team any time soon. As we all know, it takes a lot more than a few blue-chippers to carry a team. I know a lot of people bag on that Tercet guy, but I think he brought up some fair points. A lot of times as fans when we evaluate prospects, we're envisioning them as can't miss big leaguers, but more often than not that doesn't become the case. Which is a big reason why the supporting cast of big-leaguers are so important and aside from Stro, Sanchez and Giles, there isn't a lot to currently like.

[tercet]

I don't believe we've gone over Bo before.

What are his enourmous flaws?

 

He swings at everything, good pitchers will pwn him

[tercet]

Speaking of trending downwards...

 

Wut?

[tercet]

f*** you're insufferable.

 

Naw

[tercet]

So to be clear....

 

A list of really bad / retarded things that Ross Atkins and Merv Shapiro have done:

 

1. Draft Bo Bichette

2. Draft Nate Pearson

3. Sign Eric Pardinho

 

all bad. really stupid and bad moves. should of just drafted nobody

 

Naw, they are flawed, but delusional trolls like you think they will reach their 5% best case scenarios everytime.