General 2019 Blue Jays Discussion Thread

[BTS]

Family issue? They said on MLB Network last night he's going to be the assistant coach for the Longhorns, he wouldn't have retired if he were still a Jay, bro. No-one would throw that type of money away.

 

That's basically a nail in the coffin of the 0.001% chance that he would have given up $18M to skip a few doctor's appointments next year.

[Bobthe4th]

 

More evidence that we’ve already seen Stroman’s last start.

[EZe]

Lol. I've been one of Shapiro's biggest critics on the boards.

 

Rogers implemented the 5 year max contact policy after Vernon Wells went so badly.

 

Rogers cut Ricciardi legs out from under him and vetoed at least a couple of moves he wanted to make, before they ended up canning him (and I didn't like Ricciardi either).

 

Rogers wouldn't give AA the go ahead to sign (I think it was Edwin Jackson) years ago, and that's when he was forced to start asking other players to defer money so he could scrape up enough to sign him. Didn't work.

 

They've interfered with their GMs in the past. I'm sure there are other examples I'm forgetting about.

 

I think it was Ervin Santana but the point still stands.

[Laika]

NJH is wrong and can't come up with an informed response so he resorts to childish insults. We've only seen this 1000 times.

 

The childish insults were just the flavour. I displayed how you were wrong with facts and reason and my brains. You had no rebuttal, hence the quoted post with no substance.

 

Sad!

 

Poke a hole in the below, you 6'6" piece of s***:

 

Toronto released him - FACT

He retired - FACT

He would have kept playing if Toronto never released him - SPECULATION

He would have retired if Toronto never released him - SPECULATION

[Krylian]

I think it was Ervin Santana but the point still stands.

 

Thank you. I couldn't remember for sure.

[Ex Player]

This is why I think Stro will end up with the Yankees: https://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/ny-james-paxton-starting-pitching-20190727-u3fxpit3ajf4vn7e36ghf74ege-story.html

 

Its the perfect fit for him, he likes the limelight plus he's from NY himself.

Too bad, cause I really want him to stay

[Krylian]

This is why I think Stro will end up with the Yankees: https://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/ny-james-paxton-starting-pitching-20190727-u3fxpit3ajf4vn7e36ghf74ege-story.html

 

Its the perfect fit for him, he likes the limelight plus he's from NY himself.

Too bad, cause I really want him to stay

 

Sure. It's the perfect fit for him. But if the Yanks don't have the right pieces for a deal, then f*** Stromans good fit.

[bones10]

Do you guys think, in general, MLB pitchers understand the importance of strikeouts and a low walk rate, or are there still a lot of 'pitch to contact' types out there.

[Spanky__99]

Do you guys think, in general, MLB pitchers understand the importance of strikeouts and a low walk rate, or are there still a lot of 'pitch to contact' types out there.

 

I'd say both, there's a lot of guys that still rely on the heavy sink fastball.

[jaysguy44]

This is why I think Stro will end up with the Yankees: https://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/ny-james-paxton-starting-pitching-20190727-u3fxpit3ajf4vn7e36ghf74ege-story.html

 

Its the perfect fit for him, he likes the limelight plus he's from NY himself.

Too bad, cause I really want him to stay

 

The Yanks won't give up the pieces for Stro.

 

The only way he goes there is if Cashman makes Shatkins look like fools again.

[Orgfiller]

Do you guys think, in general, MLB pitchers understand the importance of strikeouts and a low walk rate, or are there still a lot of 'pitch to contact' types out there.

 

I'd say every pitcher understands that limiting walks is incredibly important. With strikeouts it's definitely up to their philosophy and understanding of the game (for better or worse). There's definitely pitchers that emphasize strikeouts and just getting a swinging strike pretty much every time. You're starting to see a lot of that with all of the pitch tunneling guys, those that work with Driveline and other similar organizations in the offseason. I can almost guarantee there are some other guys that are on the opposite spectrum, their goal is to generate weak contact, keep their pitch count low, and go deep into games (not relevant for relievers). I can't say what the split would be like but I'd say the strikeouts guys outnumber the latter at this point, and they are climbing, but both likely have strong representation among players.

[bones10]

I'd say every pitcher understands that limiting walks is incredibly important. With strikeouts it's definitely up to their philosophy and understanding of the game (for better or worse). There's definitely pitchers that emphasize strikeouts and just getting a swinging strike pretty much every time. You're starting to see a lot of that with all of the pitch tunneling guys, those that work with Driveline and other similar organizations in the offseason. I can almost guarantee there are some other guys that are on the opposite spectrum, their goal is to generate weak contact, keep their pitch count low, and go deep into games (not relevant for relievers). I can't say what the split would be like but I'd say the strikeouts guys outnumber the latter at this point, and they are climbing, but both likely have strong representation among players.

 

My next question for those guys that prefer to pitch to contact type pitchers would be are they capable of turning themselves into a more strikeout orientated pitchers. I also think there could be some wider implications that could be pretty serious for the MLB, the less pitch to contact type pitchers are, the less innings starters will go and as a result an even more increased bullpen use. At what point do starters go the way of the dinosaur, and just have bullpen games, is that even possible?

[Orgfiller]

My next question for those guys that prefer to pitch to contact type pitchers would be are they capable of turning themselves into a more strikeout orientated pitchers. I also think there could be some wider implications that could be pretty serious for the MLB, the less pitch to contact type pitchers are, the less innings starters will go and as a result an even more increased bullpen use. At what point do starters go the way of the dinosaur, and just have bullpen games, is that even possible?

 

To answer them in order:

 

1) It's certainly possible for guys to turn from a contact oriented approach to a strikeout/power oriented one, but the stuff has to be there, and the pitcher has to be willing to change his philosophy. It's pretty much all down to pitch usage: which pitches to use - generally fastball over sinker paired with a good breaking ball - and which locations to put them in - high/low for power pitchers; often bottom of the zone, side to side for contact ones. For examples of this just look at pretty much every pitcher on the Astros, with Gerritt Cole being the clearest example of a guy changing philosophies from how the Pirates approach pitching to how the Astros do.

 

2) Technically, becoming a strikeout pitcher doesn't necessarily mean you'll be less able to go deeper into games, I don't believe there's much of a correlation between strikeouts and pitches thrown in games - keep in mind contact oriented guys may allow more balls in play becoming hits, or many foul balls. Some of the top starters in the game - Scherzer, deGrom, Gerritt Cole, Verlander, Walker Buehler, prime Kershaw, Chris Sale - are all huge strikeout pitchers and routinely go deep into games. Guys like Stroman and Mike Soroka of the Braves are rare in being both top starters and guys that can go deeper into games, but that's because their stuff is also just that good. Until strikeouts for starters become a problem with regards to endurance, that's not going to be a problem that the MLB has. Their biggest problem is with the lack of balls in play due to elevated walk and strikeout rates.

 

3) While I can see bullpen games becoming far more prevalent in the future, it'll be a very long time before the traditional starter goes away. There's great value in having a good starter that goes 5-6 innings, and those guys are still being developed and coming up each year. An elite starter their third or fourth time through the order is still about as good as the reliever that would be replacing them, so you're getting more innings out of less roster spots. That's not gonna change unless injuries continue to zap us of promising arms and elite starters just simply don't exist anymore, and I just can't see that happening any time soon.

[Abomination]

3) While I can see bullpen games becoming far more prevalent in the future, it'll be a very long time before the traditional starter goes away. There's great value in having a good starter that goes 5-6 innings, and those guys are still being developed and coming up each year. An elite starter their third or fourth time through the order is still about as good as the reliever that would be replacing them, so you're getting more innings out of less roster spots. That's not gonna change unless injuries continue to zap us of promising arms and elite starters just simply don't exist anymore, and I just can't see that happening any time soon.

 

Plus, the rules are changing next year about how many guys can be in the pen, etc.

 

More generally though, I'd say velocity and spin rate are trendy right now. That results in pitchers trying to maximize those who shouldn't be, because it costs them command. Yeah, you might strike a few more guys out, but if you're leaving meatballs in the middle of the plate 20% of your pitches you're going to be in for a rough time. If all you have to do is change pitch priority (like Stroman, throw what works best more), or you have the ability to add pitches to your repertoire while maintaining your command, then tweaking your approach to reduce contact will produce great results.

[Ex Player]

Cal Quantrill is being rumored in a 3-way trade involving Stroman

[Laika]

Cal Quantrill is being rumored in a 3-way trade involving Stroman

 

Hopefully he’s the f***ing third piece

[Krylian]

Hopefully he’s the f***ing third piece

 

I wish I had that kind of confidence

[glory]

Quantrill was suggested by Rosenthal, I believe. I don't think it's an actual rumor. At least I hope not.

[Abomination]

Quantrill was suggested by Rosenthal, I believe. I don't think it's an actual rumor. At least I hope not.

 

I'd be perfectly happy with Quantrill being a second piece in a deal, but not the main headliner. I think he'll eventually settle in as a mid-rotation guy.

[Spanky__99]

Lie I said in the deadline thread, sooooo many people here underestimate how good he is.

[AintNoThang]

Lie I said in the deadline thread, sooooo many people here underestimate how good he is.

 

He is criminally underrated.

 

Stroman ranked 23rd in all of baseball in fWar in 2014, despite only starting 20 games. He was injured most of 2015 and put up 4 solid starts after most assumed he wouldn't even be able to return. He put up 3.4 fWar in 2016, ranking 19th overall. Followed that up with 3.2 in 2017, placing him 20th. He had a down and injured year in 2018, but if you extrapolate his war based on a full season, he'd still rank around the top 30. And now he's pitching better than ever, and is currently ranked 19th in fWar, placing right behind Soroka and Verlander. He's been extremely consistent. Other than a team like the Stros, Dodgers, and Nats, right now, he'd be the most solid number 2 a team could expect...and a number 1 on many (that's not meaning he's an ace for those who will argue that point).

 

Add in the fact that he's only 28, has an extra year of control, and the trading team would have an ability to try and extend, anything other than a top propsect and other pieces would be a massive disappointment.

[Spanky__99]

He is criminally underrated.

 

Stroman ranked 23rd in all of baseball in fWar in 2014, despite only starting 20 games. He was injured most of 2015 and put up 4 solid starts after most assumed he wouldn't even be able to return. He put up 3.4 fWar in 2016, ranking 19th overall. Followed that up with 3.2 in 2017, placing him 20th. He had a down and injured year in 2018, but if you extrapolate his war based on a full season, he'd still rank around the top 30. And now he's pitching better than ever, and is currently ranked 19th in fWar, placing right behind Soroka and Verlander. He's been extremely consistent. Other than a team like the Stros, Dodgers, and Nats, right now, he'd be the most solid number 2 a team could expect...and a number 1 on many (that's not meaning he's an ace for those who will argue that point).

 

Add in the fact that he's only 28, has an extra year of control, and the trading team would have an ability to try and extend, anything other than a top propsect and other pieces would be a massive disappointment.

 

Which entails... BOOM!!!

[Ex Player]

I'd be perfectly happy with Quantrill being a second piece in a deal, but not the main headliner. I think he'll eventually settle in as a mid-rotation guy

Thankfully we have at least one intelligent poster on this site

[AintNoThang]

Thankfully we have at least one intelligent poster on this site

 

Nay, TWO intelligent posters!

[Terminator]

[Krylian]

 

I hope not. Time to have him work on his 1B skills in the off-season.

[AintNoThang]

I hope not. Time to have him work on his 1B skills in the off-season.

 

They will humor him for another year, and then Bichette is up...and Groshans could be ready in 2021. *Then* a move to first will be made.

[Bobthe4th]

I hope not. Time to have him work on his 1B skills in the off-season.

 

IMO moving him to 1B so early sends the message that we don’t ever believe he’ll lose any weight. Assuming we’re not competitive next year, I’d keep him at 3B and tell him he needs to improve his fitness to stick there.

 

Otherwise he’s going to keep overeating and need a mobility scooter by the time he’s 25!

[Deadpool]

 

Not mentioned in this tweet: HE'S f***ING 20 YEARS OLD AND IN THE MLB. He's probably not a gold glover, but how many 20 year olds put up better numbers than that in the MLB?

[Laika]

Not mentioned in this tweet: HE'S f***ING 20 YEARS OLD AND IN THE MLB. He's probably not a gold glover, but how many 20 year olds put up better numbers than that in the MLB?

 

A decent amount, actually? Players tend to be their most athletic when they are youngest. Defense, speed, and velocity can all peak at the very beginning of a player's career (sometimes before they even make MLB). Obviously some players improve defensively with experience (improvements from year 1 to year 2/3 are common) but some are their best in their young 20s.