Billy Mckinney top comparables

[Laika]

Has anyone mentioned Brett Gardner as a comparable? Decent bat, has pop, plays good defence, solid baserunner and all around pain in the ass for the opposition.

 

I don't know how you guys even land on some of these comps. McKinney is closer to Seth Smith than he is to any kind of Gardner-ish player.

[Grant77]

I don't know how you guys even land on some of these comps. McKinney is closer to Seth Smith than he is to any kind of Gardner-ish player.

 

Even closer to Justin Upton.

[Orgfiller]

I don't know how you guys even land on some of these comps. McKinney is closer to Seth Smith than he is to any kind of Gardner-ish player.

 

He's a white corner outfielder who previously played for the Yankees. It's pretty clear where the comparison is coming from.

[Jimcanuck]

I comp McK to Catalanotto tbh

[Carlos Danger]

Revere was an average-ish leadoff hitter for the Jays. If that's your bar for a good leadoff hitter then you clearly don't expect much

 

I never said Revere was great, I stated he was the last true lead off hitter we have had.

[Captain Adama]

I never said Revere was great, I stated he was the last true lead off hitter we have had.

 

An OBP in the low .300 is not a "leadoff hitter."

[Carlos Danger]

An OBP in the low .300 is not a "leadoff hitter."

 

 

He had a .354 OBP, over .300 BA, low K contact hitter with speed and stolen bases. I am not saying he was Rickey Henderson but we have not had anyone close to that since.

[John_Havok]

He had a .354 OBP, over .300 BA, low K contact hitter with speed and stolen bases. I am not saying he was Rickey Henderson but we have not had anyone close to that since.

 

106 wrc+. Not a guy that makes sense at the top of the lineup getting the most PA.

 

But stick to those 1950s ways of evaluating players. Its easier i guess. Slap hitting with speed = true leadoff hitter

[Carlos Danger]

106 wrc+. Not a guy that makes sense at the top of the lineup getting the most PA.

 

But stick to those 1950s ways of evaluating players. Its easier i guess. Slap hitting with speed = true leadoff hitter

 

Your stull stuck in the Bill James era like many of the guys on this board. Even Bill James has admitted that there are many flaws in his metrics. The Cubs GM, World Series Winning Cubs, philoshpy is a fusion of both analytics and some old school.

 

Some guys on this board have argued an out is an out. Mileninal Bull s***! A speedy contact hitter that puts the ball and play and does not K at a high rate puts more pressure on the D. Then when he is at 1B puts more pressure in the pitcher, and allows the manager more options. Having this type of hitter come to the plate more frequently and the ability to manufacture a run, ends up paying off. Especially in one run tie games.

 

But go ahead and put some fat ass station to station guy in the lead off spot because he walks a lot and has a higher OPS etc (weighted stat). Lack of a true lead off hitter is a reason AA went and got Ben Revere for the stretch run. It has contributed in part of the reason our offence has sucked when faced with a half decent pitcher and we have had a poor results in one run games.

[John_Havok]

Your stull stuck in the Bill James era like many of the guys on this board. Even Bill James has admitted that there are many flaws in his metrics. The Cubs GM, World Series Winning Cubs, philoshpy is a fusion of both analytics and some old school.

 

Some guys on this board have argued an out is an out. Mileninal Bull s***! A speedy contact hitter that puts the ball and play and does not K at a high rate puts more pressure on the D. Then when he is at 1B puts more pressure in the pitcher, and allows the manager more options. Having this type of hitter come to the plate more frequently and the ability to manufacture a run, ends up paying off. Especially in one run tie games.

 

But go ahead and put some fat ass station to station guy in the lead off spot because he walks a lot and has a higher OPS etc (weighted stat). Lack of a true lead off hitter is a reason AA went and got Ben Revere for the stretch run. It has contributed in part of the reason our offence has sucked when faced with a half decent pitcher and we have had a poor results in one run games.

 

It's fine if you don't understand the new metrics. But a simple way of looking at it is that you want your best hitters hitting more often than your bad hitters. Hoping your bad hitters get on base ahead of your good ones has been proven to be less effective than batting better hitters first regardless of the type of hitter they are.

 

The whole speed+stolen bases thing is a dinosaur mentality from a different era if the game. It may have worked then, but it doesn't really hold water when you actually analyze it objectively.

[BTS]

Your stull stuck in the Bill James era like many of the guys on this board. Even Bill James has admitted that there are many flaws in his metrics. The Cubs GM, World Series Winning Cubs, philoshpy is a fusion of both analytics and some old school.

 

Some guys on this board have argued an out is an out. Mileninal Bull s***! A speedy contact hitter that puts the ball and play and does not K at a high rate puts more pressure on the D. Then when he is at 1B puts more pressure in the pitcher, and allows the manager more options. Having this type of hitter come to the plate more frequently and the ability to manufacture a run, ends up paying off. Especially in one run tie games.

 

But go ahead and put some fat ass station to station guy in the lead off spot because he walks a lot and has a higher OPS etc (weighted stat). Lack of a true lead off hitter is a reason AA went and got Ben Revere for the stretch run. It has contributed in part of the reason our offence has sucked when faced with a half decent pitcher and we have had a poor results in one run games.

 

The best teams in the league consistently hit one of their best 2 or 3 hitters in the leadoff spot now. How many good teams have a slap-hitting speedster hitting first consistently?

[John_Havok]

The best teams in the league consistently hit one of their best 2 or 3 hitters in the leadoff spot now. How many good teams have a slap-hitting speedster hitting first consistently?

 

Awe... I was saving that nugget for his next reply of multiple strawman arguments that don't actually address anything....

[Angrioter]

Your stull stuck in the Bill James era like many of the guys on this board. Even Bill James has admitted that there are many flaws in his metrics. The Cubs GM, World Series Winning Cubs, philoshpy is a fusion of both analytics and some old school.

 

Some guys on this board have argued an out is an out. Mileninal Bull s***! A speedy contact hitter that puts the ball and play and does not K at a high rate puts more pressure on the D. Then when he is at 1B puts more pressure in the pitcher, and allows the manager more options. Having this type of hitter come to the plate more frequently and the ability to manufacture a run, ends up paying off. Especially in one run tie games.

 

But go ahead and put some fat ass station to station guy in the lead off spot because he walks a lot and has a higher OPS etc (weighted stat). Lack of a true lead off hitter is a reason AA went and got Ben Revere for the stretch run. It has contributed in part of the reason our offence has sucked when faced with a half decent pitcher and we have had a poor results in one run games.

 

Best leadoff hitter:

 

A) Dee Gordon

David Ortiz

[Grant77]

The best teams in the league consistently hit one of their best 2 or 3 hitters in the leadoff spot now. How many good teams have a slap-hitting speedster hitting first consistently?

 

Lorenzo Cain (26 steals, .123 ISO), Mallex Smith (30 steals, .118 ISO), and Marcus Semien (14 steals, .128 ISO) come to mind as the best examples, although only Smith really fits the Ben Revere type profile.

[John_Havok]

Lorenzo Cain (26 steals, .123 ISO), Mallex Smith (30 steals, .118 ISO), and Marcus Semien (14 steals, .128 ISO) come to mind as the best examples, although only Smith really fits the Ben Revere type profile.

 

Cain's wRC+ is 130, Smith's 122, Semien is a weird one, wrc+ of like 98.

[Grant77]

Cain's wRC+ is 130, Smith's 122, Semien is a weird one, wrc+ of like 98.

 

I'm not trying to validate the old school line of thinking, but they do fit the profile of a slap hitting speedster as well as anyone. Smith's wRC+ is dependent almost entirely on a .375 BABIP.

[Carlos Danger]

The whole point of my origional post is that I believe Mckinney is a true lead off hitter, the first one we have had since Revere. You have to disagree with two points to disagree with my statement. 1. Ben Revere was not a true lead off hitter and that we have had a true lead off hitter since, up until McKinney. What part of my startement is not correct or factual?

[Grant77]

The whole point of my origional post is that I believe Mckinney is a true lead off hitter, the first one we have had since Revere. You have to disagree with two points to disagree with my statement. 1. Ben Revere was not a true lead off hitter and that we have had a true lead off hitter since, up until McKinney. What part of my startement is not correct or factual?

 

Define a true leadoff hitter and I will respond to your question.

[BTS]

McKinney seems like a very different kind of hitter than the Ben Revere speedster. He’s going to hit for a low average and hope a 10% Walk rate and above average power drives his offence. And he might have below-average speed. He’s not a base stealing threat at all.

[Carlos Danger]

Define a true leadoff hitter and I will respond to your question.

 

IMO, high OBP, contact hitter with low Ks, speed, in the sense it puts pressure on/distracts the pitcher when on base, puts pressure on the D. A guy who can go 1st to 3rd based on the premise your RBIs guys are coming up next but might not always get a double or HR etc.

[Carlos Danger]

McKinney seems like a very different kind of hitter than the Ben Revere speedster. He’s going to hit for a low average and hope a 10% Walk rate and above average power drives his offence. And he might have below-average speed. He’s not a base stealing threat at all.

 

Again, I am not and NEVER said McKinney is like Ben Revere. I simply stated, IMO, he is the first true lead off hitter we have had since Revere, and before Revere, Reyes. I am by no means saying they are the same type of player. I am stating they were true lead -off hitters, like them or not and IMO Mckinney is a solid lead off hitter (so far) and the first we have had since 2015.

 

I have stated that my comparison to McKinney is Bret Gardner, who is also a successful lead off hitter.

[BTS]

Again, I am not and NEVER said McKinney is like Ben Revere. I simply stated, IMO, he is the first true lead off hitter we have had since Revere, and before Revere, Reyes. I am by no means saying they are the same type of player. I am stating they were true lead -off hitters, like them or not and IMO Mckinney is a solid lead off hitter (so far) and the first we have had since 2015.

 

I have stated that my comparison to McKinney is Bret Gardner, who is also a successful lead off hitter.

 

I guess I still don't really understand what makes him a true lead off hitter in your eyes. You mentioned high OBP contact hitter with low Ks and speed. He doesn't really check any of those boxes: he's projected at a ~0.315 OBP with a 23% K-rate and has 40-50 grade speed and probably won't steal 5 bags a season or provide any other value on the bases. His skill set looks similar to that of Scott Schebler or Mark Trumbo. He looks nothing like Brett Gardner.

[Grant77]

IMO, high OBP, contact hitter with low Ks, speed, in the sense it puts pressure on/distracts the pitcher when on base, puts pressure on the D. A guy who can go 1st to 3rd based on the premise your RBIs guys are coming up next but might not always get a double or HR etc.

 

In that case, I don't think that McKinney fits the bill. He gets on base at a reasonable clip, but we shouldn't expect anything much higher than a .350 OBP. He's got pretty average speed and probably doesn't concern the pitcher much.

 

I think his best skill is his power. What we're seeing now is what we should expect from him going forward. I think he can hit 25-30 home runs in a full season.

 

In my opinion, McKinney's best skill as a leadoff hitter is the fact that he sees a lot of pitches and is comfortable with 2 strikes. That's important in the first inning when your big hitters need to get a read on the pitcher.

[Carlos Danger]

Ok, guys some valid points. So, do you think McKinney is a suitable lead-off hitter going FWD, (however you like your lead-off hitters). Do you accept the premise we have not had a solid lead off hitter the past two/three seasons?

[BTS]

Ok, guys some valid points. So, do you think McKinney is a suitable lead-off hitter going FWD, (however you like your lead-off hitters). Do you accept the premise we have not had a solid lead off hitter the past two/three seasons?

 

I think your lead-off hitter should be one of the 3 best hitters on the team. I don't think it's likely that McKinney gets to the point where he's a top-3 hitter on a good team, but if he does, I wouldn't have a problem with him hitting first.

[Grant77]

Ok, guys some valid points. So, do you think McKinney is a suitable lead-off hitter going FWD, (however you like your lead-off hitters). Do you accept the premise we have not had a solid lead off hitter the past two/three seasons?

 

I thought Travis was a good leadoff hitter when he was hitting well, but we haven't had anyone obvious for a while.

 

We'll see how McKinney pans out. For now, he's certainly not doing any harm leading off.

[Orgfiller]

The Bautista-Donaldson 1-2 was some of the best lineup construction in franchise history. One of the reasons why Gibby is an excellent manager.

[John_Havok]

I'm not trying to validate the old school line of thinking, but they do fit the profile of a slap hitting speedster as well as anyone. Smith's wRC+ is dependent almost entirely on a .375 BABIP.

 

Yeah I know, I was just adding the wrc for contextual purposes

[Brownie19]

I think your lead-off hitter should be one of the 3 best hitters on the team. I don't think it's likely that McKinney gets to the point where he's a top-3 hitter on a good team, but if he does, I wouldn't have a problem with him hitting first.

 

This. The days of s***** hitters like Ben Revere hitting lead off are gone (thankfully)

[Olerud363]

This. The days of s***** hitters like Ben Revere hitting lead off are gone (thankfully)

 

Except on the 2018 Jays, other than Smoak and Morales the entire team was .240 .290 .450 type hitters with 20 homers so one of the them inevitably hit lead off

 

(note: that's not true, Granderson hit leadoff most of time until the great Mckinney came, I guess against lefties one of these fools was at leadoff a lot.. )

 

What was the difference between Martin, Travis, Diaz, Gurriel, Grichuk, Pillar, Hernandez, Solarte and Maille??

 

OK. No one probably cares but I will explain some of the differences.

 

Solarte - seemed to like to dance.

Diaz - No difference between him and the group, he was the utterly average .290 .450 guy, so inevitably one of them had to be put at lead off (well on the days Granderson sat, and before the great Mckinney joined the team... so in truth none of the s***** hitters really spent time at leadoff, but I spent to much time making this reply to delete it now)

 

Martin - Walked more than the others but can't hit .200

Travis - Used to hit .300 but now a.240 .290 guy.

Gurriel - got two hits a game for a while but is regressing to .250 .290 guy...

Pillar - Has been doing this for years, and doing a .290 obp even better now with a .270 obp.

Hernandez - Got his own long running thread for hitting this way

Grichuk - cool hair, hit in a face with a chair but otherwise has been doing the same thing for years.

Maille - Not sure if he belongs in this group with his .327 obp but lack of power... seems like the kind of guy who should swing harder and be a .240 .290 .450 guy like the rest.