Braves release Jose Bautista, Mets sign him

[onwego]

Yeah

 

They might as well just plan for a 10 minute break in the game during his first plate appearance

 

 

5 is the outer limits of respect

 

10 would be crass and cynical gesturing, which can be accomplished with a simple hand gesture as he strolls up

 

If I'm there I will stand and cheer, he provided the best memories after 1993.

[Jimcanuck]

5 is the outer limits of respect

 

10 would be crass and cynical gesturing, which can be accomplished with a simple hand gesture as he strolls up

 

If I'm there I will stand and cheer, he provided the best memories after 1993.

 

Delgado and Halladay > Bautista

[John_Havok]

Delgado and Halladay > Bautista

 

Which would of course, depend on how old the fan is and their experience with the team.

 

There's many who still have Joe Carter as the greatest Jay ever just because of that HR, when he was really rather pedestrian for the course of his Jays career and his career overall. He really only had 2 great seasons and a bunch of average to crap ones.

[onwego]

Delgado and Halladay > Bautista

 

 

Playoff runs always beat dismal decades of non-playoff fumbling, stumbling, bumbling...

 

always

[L54]

Delgado and Halladay > Bautista

 

Oh Jim, you contrarian you

[Jimcanuck]

Oh Jim, you contrarian you

 

Nothing contrarian about it. Bautista as the highlight of the Jays franchise since 1993 is quite debatable.

[Jimcanuck]

Playoff runs always beat dismal decades of non-playoff fumbling, stumbling, bumbling...

 

always

 

Well if thats the case then its JD not JB

[Omar]

Which would of course, depend on how old the fan is and their experience with the team.

 

There's many who still have Joe Carter as the greatest Jay ever just because of that HR, when he was really rather pedestrian for the course of his Jays career and his career overall. He really only had 2 great seasons and a bunch of average to crap ones.

 

Just so we are clear you consider his 7 years in Toronto (.257/.308/.473 >ops .781 of which 4 of those 7 years ops over .800 you consider that average to crap?

[Krylian]

Oh Jim, you contrarian you

 

He's right though.

[Terminator]

Just so we are clear you consider his 7 years in Toronto (.257/.308/.473 >ops .781 of which 4 of those 7 years ops over .800 you consider that average to crap?

 

Yeah he's so overrated by casuals that he's underrated by diehards. He was a very good player for us starting in 91 but then became merely useful by 94. Then he was worthless after that but he was 35 by then.

[TheHurl]

His best three year stretch for the Jays Carter put up 9.5 fWAR over 2050 PA's (before putting up 5 negative fWAR seasons).

 

Some Blue Jays Comparables.

 

Jose Reyes 2 years (1050 PA's) 6.3 fWAR and run out of town

Alex Rios best three years 14.2 fWAR (run out of town the next season).

Shannon Stewart best 3 years 11.7 fWAR (run out of town the next season).

Kevin Pillar's first three full seasons (1825 PA's) 7.9 fWAR

Vernon Wells last three seasons before being run out of town 4.7. His best three year stretch 12.9 fWAR

Yunel Escobar's 2.5 seasons in Toronto (1500 PA's) 6.3 fWAR

 

One thing I will say for Carter is that he played in an era where they would never move an athletic guy like him at DH, so some of his negative defensive seasons could have been reduced.

 

If I had to name the 10 greatest Blue Jays (during their Jays tenure) of all time Carter is not on it. I'm not certain he is on my Jays all-time OF top ten (Bautista, Wells, Moseby, Barfield, Bell, Rios, Stewart for sure ahead)

 

Essentially Jays have a history of running people out of town at the first sign of struggling no matter how good they were prior...unless you hit a huge HR.

[John_Havok]

Just so we are clear you consider his 7 years in Toronto (.257/.308/.473 >ops .781 of which 4 of those 7 years ops over .800 you consider that average to crap?

 

Heh... OPS....

 

He had 1 great year in 1991, 2 average years in 1992 and 1993 with a great HR in the playoffs and was replacement level or worse in 1994-1998.

 

For his career.. he had 2 great seasons (86 and 91), 1 good year (88) and the rest were average or crap.

 

Carter is the poster boy for why old school stats are collectively useless. Also, defense is a thing and Carter was garbage defensively

[Omar]

Heh... OPS....

 

He had 1 great year in 1991, 2 average years in 1992 and 1993 with a great HR in the playoffs and was replacement level or worse in 1994-1998.

 

For his career.. he had 2 great seasons (86 and 91), 1 good year (88) and the rest were average or crap.

 

Carter is the poster boy for why old school stats are collectively useless. Also, defense is a thing and Carter was garbage defensively

 

So objectively you would consider him not a good ball player?

[Jimcanuck]

He was a fine ballplayer, but immensely overrated. There are probably at least 8 guys on the Jays 92-93 teams more valuable than Carter.

[Omar]

He was a fine ballplayer, but immensely overrated. There are probably at least 8 guys on the Jays 92-93 teams more valuable than Carter.

 

Agreed.

[John_Havok]

So objectively you would consider him not a good ball player?

 

No, I would say he's not a great ballplayer. Average to slightly above average at his peak but gets incredibly overrated because of old school stats like RBIs.

 

his career wRC+ is 102. That's about as average as it gets.

[sdyment]

You guys would know much better than I, so here’s the question... how much would ‘92 carter get as a FA today (or two off -seasons ago if you don’t want to answer “a minor league deal”

[jays4life19]

You guys would know much better than I, so here’s the question... how much would ‘92 carter get as a FA today (or two off -seasons ago if you don’t want to answer “a minor league deal”

 

3 years 33 million.

[CBlake]

No, I would say he's not a great ballplayer. Average to slightly above average at his peak but gets incredibly overrated because of old school stats like RBIs.

 

his career wRC+ is 102. That's about as average as it gets.

 

As an old school stats guy, I find war so subjective, in some ways its not even a real stat until there is one formula for it. Joe is and was a legend, simple as that, he delivered when it mattered on the biggest stage.

[G-Snarls]

You guys would know much better than I, so here’s the question... how much would ‘92 carter get as a FA today (or two off -seasons ago if you don’t want to answer “a minor league deal”

 

He would probably have had a Melky Cabrera level career financially

[FrozenRopes]

As an old school stats guy, I find war so subjective, in some ways its not even a real stat until there is one formula for it. Joe is and was a legend, simple as that, he delivered when it mattered on the biggest stage.

 

You don't believe WAR is a real stat?

[DigitalRock]

Heh... OPS....

 

He had 1 great year in 1991, 2 average years in 1992 and 1993 with a great HR in the playoffs and was replacement level or worse in 1994-1998.

 

For his career.. he had 2 great seasons (86 and 91), 1 good year (88) and the rest were average or crap.

 

Carter is the poster boy for why old school stats are collectively useless. Also, defense is a thing and Carter was garbage defensively

 

Most overrated Jays player for sure I would think.

 

As an old school stats guy, I find war so subjective, in some ways its not even a real stat until there is one formula for it. Joe is and was a legend, simple as that, he delivered when it mattered on the biggest stage.

 

LOL

 

By any stat Carter was mediocre.

[John_Havok]

As an old school stats guy, I find war so subjective, in some ways its not even a real stat until there is one formula for it. Joe is and was a legend, simple as that, he delivered when it mattered on the biggest stage.

 

I agree he's a legend because of the HR, but that shouldn't influence opinions of his overall play. Advanced stats like wRC+, wOBA etc (I'll exclude WAR because it really isn't a stat- it's a combination of stats which is designed to give a quick 1 shot look at a players contribution - which I agree isn't perfect, but is f***tons better than RBI totals) show exactly why Carter was overrated, and those stats are not subjective.

[Brownie19]

Which would of course, depend on how old the fan is and their experience with the team.

 

There's many who still have Joe Carter as the greatest Jay ever just because of that HR, when he was really rather pedestrian for the course of his Jays career and his career overall. He really only had 2 great seasons and a bunch of average to crap ones.

 

I took a coaching clinic this spring. We were broke into groups of 4 and there were probably 6 groups. As a starter, he asked each group to name the 2 best HITTERS who played for the Blue Jays. It didn't matter how long they played for the Jays or whether they peaked while on the Blue Jays.

 

Our table debated JD, Frank Thomas, Delgado and Olerud before settling on JD and the Big Hurt.

 

2 of the tables said Joe Carter, while no table said Delgado or Olerud. I was disgusted. A lot of tables said Robbie Alomar, Molitor + Bautista.

[onwego]

not to be mistaken, Roy is in his own category of achievement for this franchise, even without playoff glory, Stieb to a lesser extent but with some playoff stuff is up there as well.

 

for long stretches I expected both men to throw a no-hitter or perfect game when they took the hill

 

only Pedro has also provided that kind of domination for my 45 years of watching

[KingKat]

I took a coaching clinic this spring. We were broke into groups of 4 and there were probably 6 groups. As a starter, he asked each group to name the 2 best HITTERS who played for the Blue Jays. It didn't matter how long they played for the Jays or whether they peaked while on the Blue Jays.Our table debated JD, Frank Thomas, Delgado and Olerud before settling on JD and the Big Hurt. 2 of the tables said Joe Carter, while no table said Delgado or Olerud. I was disgusted. A lot of tables said Robbie Alomar, Molitor + Bautista.

That's an interesting thought exercise. If it doesn't matter how long they played or when they peaked then Rickey Henderson should be in that conversation.

[Brownie19]

That's an interesting thought exercise. If it doesn't matter how long they played or when they peaked then Rickey Henderson should be in that conversation.

 

Yeah I thought about him and Winfield too.

 

Henderson was really underrated as a hitter. Everyone remembers the speed, but playing in a time when people valued RBI's - his hitting ability often was overlooked.

[Terminator]

I took a coaching clinic this spring. We were broke into groups of 4 and there were probably 6 groups. As a starter, he asked each group to name the 2 best HITTERS who played for the Blue Jays. It didn't matter how long they played for the Jays or whether they peaked while on the Blue Jays.

 

Our table debated JD, Frank Thomas, Delgado and Olerud before settling on JD and the Big Hurt.

 

2 of the tables said Joe Carter, while no table said Delgado or Olerud. I was disgusted. A lot of tables said Robbie Alomar, Molitor + Bautista.

 

I think your table probably got it right though Rickey Henderson and Delgado are in that discussion with JD. The Big Hurt is the best as far as I can tell. His numbers were insane.

[CBlake]

You don't believe WAR is a real stat?

 

I just believe that it is subjective as there is not one clear cut version of it. There is no clearly established formula exists for it. Hey sabremetrics vs old school make for great conversation/debate as there are merits to both.

[Olerud363]

His best three year stretch for the Jays Carter put up 9.5 fWAR over 2050 PA's (before putting up 5 negative fWAR seasons).

 

Some Blue Jays Comparables.

 

Jose Reyes 2 years (1050 PA's) 6.3 fWAR and run out of town

Alex Rios best three years 14.2 fWAR (run out of town the next season).

Shannon Stewart best 3 years 11.7 fWAR (run out of town the next season).

Kevin Pillar's first three full seasons (1825 PA's) 7.9 fWAR

Vernon Wells last three seasons before being run out of town 4.7. His best three year stretch 12.9 fWAR

Yunel Escobar's 2.5 seasons in Toronto (1500 PA's) 6.3 fWAR

 

One thing I will say for Carter is that he played in an era where they would never move an athletic guy like him at DH, so some of his negative defensive seasons could have been reduced.

 

If I had to name the 10 greatest Blue Jays (during their Jays tenure) of all time Carter is not on it. I'm not certain he is on my Jays all-time OF top ten (Bautista, Wells, Moseby, Barfield, Bell, Rios, Stewart for sure ahead)

 

Essentially Jays have a history of running people out of town at the first sign of struggling no matter how good they were prior...unless you hit a huge HR.

 

Olerud 91-93 - ~ 14 WAR, beat Carter in 92 as well as 93

Olerud 94-96 ~ 8 WAR Carter -1...

 

At this point, Olerud is platooned, sits against right handers when Carter needs 1b, or Brumfield needs to play and without being injured gets only 384 at bats.

 

Olerud 97-99 - 18 WAR

 

If Jays treat Olerud properly, and ditch Carter, they are more competitive (+.500) in 97, likely win a wild card in 98 (replace Canseco 1 WAR with Olerud 8 WAR), and perhaps in 99 (replace Willie -WAR Greene with Olerud).

 

Then maybe everything is different (playoffs in late 90s = more revenue = less dry spells)

 

EDIT: Delgado DHs, he should of been a DH all along.