General 2018 Blue Jays Discussion Thread

[Spanky99]

Fine: Bill "Mother Fnn James" , 2017 - https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fancy-stats/wp/2017/11/20/bill-james-who-spurred-baseballs-analytics-revolution-is-waging-a-mini-war-on-war/?utm_term=.d1886751dd28

 

If I lived in Canada like you I would be smoking the reefer about now..

 

I got some dumn-dumn... you need it.

[Spanky99]

What’s going on in here? Do I have to ban someone?

 

Rasmus best year as a Jay suxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

[L54]

Fine: Bill "Mother Fnn James" , 2017 - https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fancy-stats/wp/2017/11/20/bill-james-who-spurred-baseballs-analytics-revolution-is-waging-a-mini-war-on-war/?utm_term=.d1886751dd28

 

If I lived in Canada like you I would be smoking the reefer about now..

 

Four glorious days my friend

[L54]

I get it. You would rather hold on to a expensive veteran on the decline in what is definitely a rebuilding year instead of trading him for prospects, saving him the embarrassment of part time play, allowing the kids to play and letting him go to a contender. This isn't a shocker, coming from the guy who's willing to trade Biggio for nothing.

 

Maybe you should follow another team or sport.

 

Isn’t said expensive veteran still expensive if you eat virtually all of the salary to move him? Saving $4M is not worth the postional flexibility, elite mentoring for DJ and clubhouse leadership Martin will provide in his final year in Toronto. Plus, there’s value in the 2019 team not being an absolute tire fire and Martin is better than any alternative available.

[Carlos Danger]

Four glorious days my friend

 

Are they going to come out with the sequel to Strange Brew.. Strange Herb?

 

The Fast Food places better put on some extra staff and stock up for the evening of the 17th..

[Carlos Danger]

Isn’t said expensive veteran still expensive if you eat virtually all of the salary to move him? Saving $4M is not worth the postional flexibility, elite mentoring for DJ and clubhouse leadership Martin will provide in his final year in Toronto. Plus, there’s value in the 2019 team not being an absolute tire fire and Martin is better than any alternative available.

 

$ 4 million is a reliever on a 1 yr deal that we can try and leverage at the dead line, like this year..

[L54]

$ 4 million is a reliever on a 1 yr deal that we can try and leverage at the dead line, like this year..

 

As long as everything goes right, he doesn't get hurt, etc. For a a C prospect that's not that intriguing to me

 

I also don't think that Shatkins are interested in taking the PR hit on moving from Russell, our patriot.

[SaskJaysFan_2]

Isn’t said expensive veteran still expensive if you eat virtually all of the salary to move him? Saving $4M is not worth the postional flexibility, elite mentoring for DJ and clubhouse leadership Martin will provide in his final year in Toronto. Plus, there’s value in the 2019 team not being an absolute tire fire and Martin is better than any alternative available.

 

Rogers will be paying $20M for Martin, a declining vet, in a rebuilding year when there are others who can and really should replace. $20M is sunk cost.

 

If they trade him and eat $16M, they come out of 2019 $4M ahead of the game, and (presumably) Martin gets to play for a contender, and maybe even be the everyday catcher.

 

The Jays get 1-2 prospects (the more the FO eats of that contract, the more and higher quality prospects we get) and an extra young player gets to stay up in the MLB and get some experience.

 

The Jays will not be an absolute tire fire unless Sanchez and Stroman suck again. Nothing Martin can do about those two sucking, other than framing, etc., and by many measurable many of the Jays in the system offer decent defense. So that gap won't be that significant. Play the kids, see what we have, and if one or more fizzle, address subsequently by trade or FA signing.

 

$4M better off with prospects? Oh yeah, the FO will be taking a look at that scenario.

[SaskJaysFan_2]

As long as everything goes right, he doesn't get hurt, etc. For a a C prospect that's not that intriguing to me

 

I also don't think that Shatkins are interested in taking the PR hit on moving from Russell, our patriot.

 

I am not sure that wold rank even top 10 bad PR moves that have been made over the Shapiro regime. Especially if it is done in the offseason, they honour Martin at some point, and he goes to a contender. It's not like there are 5,000 fans who would stop coming to Rogers Centre if Martin is moved.

[Pendleton]

Rogers will be paying $20M for Martin, a declining vet, in a rebuilding year when there are others who can and really should replace. $20M is sunk cost.

 

If they trade him and eat $16M, they come out of 2019 $4M ahead of the game, and (presumably) Martin gets to play for a contender, and maybe even be the everyday catcher.

 

The Jays get 1-2 prospects (the more the FO eats of that contract, the more and higher quality prospects we get) and an extra young player gets to stay up in the MLB and get some experience.

 

The Jays will not be an absolute tire fire unless Sanchez and Stroman suck again. Nothing Martin can do about those two sucking, other than framing, etc., and by many measurable many of the Jays in the system offer decent defense. So that gap won't be that significant. Play the kids, see what we have, and if one or more fizzle, address subsequently by trade or FA signing.

 

$4M better off with prospects? Oh yeah, the FO will be taking a look at that scenario.

 

We only have one C prospect who we really should be concerned about blocking (Jansen), and he's not going to be blocked.

 

McGuire is fine starting in Buffallo, Maile is a low value backup at best. Having a great veteran presence to back up Jansen in his first full year is so much more important than whatever you think we accomplish by dumping Martin.

[Carlos Danger]

We only have one C prospect who we really should be concerned about blocking (Jansen), and he's not going to be blocked.

 

McGuire is fine starting in Buffallo, Maile is a low value backup at best. Having a great veteran presence to back up Jansen in his first full year is so much more important than whatever you think we accomplish by dumping Martin.

 

Wait.. Luke Maile is on the same list that includes Matt Chapman and Sheryl Ring in the MILB thread.. I am so confused???? Is he good and can be mentioned with the likes of Chapman, or does he suck??

 

🤔

[Dick_Pole]

Every time the topic of trading away the catcher depth comes up, I'm reminded of those six glorious weeks where AA managed to trade every catcher off of the 40 man roster except Arencibia. The C situation is fine as is. Don't dump Martin for the purpose of dumping him. Now of course if a trade comes up that makes sense, then you look at it.

[SaskJaysFan_2]

We only have one C prospect who we really should be concerned about blocking (Jansen), and he's not going to be blocked.

 

McGuire is fine starting in Buffallo, Maile is a low value backup at best. Having a great veteran presence to back up Jansen in his first full year is so much more important than whatever you think we accomplish by dumping Martin.

 

We accomplish many things by *trading* Martin. I have literally posted lists.

[Pendleton]

We accomplish many things by *trading* Martin. I have literally posted lists.

 

 

The only viable reason would be a team actually offering a prospect of notable value, which seems unlikely. Barring that, dumping him for the sake of dumping him does us no good. Keeping him as Jansen's backup this year could be greatly beneficial - a lot more beneficial than eating $16M to get a borderline top 30 prospect or something.

Edited October 15, 2018 by Pendleton

[SaskJaysFan_2]

Well, two things. If his mentorship is that valuable, bring him back as a coach when he retires. Second, if he's on the team for 2019, he will take away playing time from our prospect/young infielders in his current "super sub" role. Guys that should be getting some MLB reps.

[P2F]

The only viable reason would be a team actually offering a prospect of notable value, which seems unlikely. Barring that, dumping him for the sake of dumping him does us no good. Keeping him as Jansen's backup this year could be greatly beneficial - a lot more beneficial than eating $16M to get a borderline top 30 prospect or something.

 

I wonder how many more times you'll have to say the same thing but in a different way before the point hits home.

[Pendleton]

Well, two things. If his mentorship is that valuable, bring him back as a coach when he retires. Second, if he's on the team for 2019, he will take away playing time from our prospect/young infielders in his current "super sub" role. Guys that should be getting some MLB reps.

 

The first part seems possible.

 

I don't agree with the other point at all though. The fact that he can also fill in at other positions is just a bonus. He's not going to get enough playing time at those positions to be stunting anyone's growth.

 

Reese McGuire is maybe the one prospect who would have their 2019 MLB playing time affected by Martin sticking around, but Jansen being mentored by Martin while McGuire plays every day in Buffalo is a much better situation than having two rookie catchers.

[Dick_Pole]

Well, two things. If his mentorship is that valuable, bring him back as a coach when he retires. Second, if he's on the team for 2019, he will take away playing time from our prospect/young infielders in his current "super sub" role. Guys that should be getting some MLB reps.

 

You're right. I'd rather have Ryan Goins, Gift Ngoepe, Yangervis Solarte, Darwin Barney, Chris Coghlan, Rob Refsnyder, Cliff Pennington, and Munenori Kawasaki waiting for the inevitable injury to happen instead of a capable MLB player who can also cover the backup catching role. f***. 4,000 plate appearances given away to replacement level ball players at 2B/SS/3B since the day Goins made his debut and the instant it starts to look like the team has some solid depth on the infield, people want to trade it away.

 

Martin is not going to take away any playing time of note from the young guys, unless the team hires Cito Gaston to manage again. He's not even going to take up a roster spot over anyone other than Reese McGuire because you need the second catcher anyways.

[glory]

The one aspect of trading Martin that might need to be considered is that trading him would be doing him a favor. I'm sure he doesn't want to catch 50 games a year behind Jansen if he still considers himself a starting catcher, and the new manager may not be as friendly as Gibby when it comes to playing him in the infield. The guy just spent an entire month on the bench when he was apparently healthy. You don't do that to players you want to keep around.

 

I don't mind keeping Martin to mentor Jansen (and even Tulo to mentor Bo), but the org may not want that distraction and doing good by veteran players is usually seen as a good thing.

[John_Havok]

The one aspect of trading Martin that might need to be considered is that trading him would be doing him a favor. I'm sure he doesn't want to catch 50 games a year behind Jansen if he still considers himself a starting catcher, and the new manager may not be as friendly as Gibby when it comes to playing him in the infield. The guy just spent an entire month on the bench when he was apparently healthy. You don't do that to players you want to keep around.

 

I don't mind keeping Martin to mentor Jansen (and even Tulo to mentor Bo), but the org may not want that distraction and doing good by veteran players is usually seen as a good thing.

 

Sure, he wants to be on the field competing, as any athlete would, but I promise you, a near 36 year old career catcher in a lost season doesn't mind getting time off to rest those knees.

 

He also spent a few days on the Paternity list

Edited October 16, 2018 by John_Havok

[Brenner]

This is a silly discussion. If you can move one or both of Martin and Tulo by eating most of their contract, you do it. They are a liability, if we can move some of it then great. But if you have to start adding assets to move them then you don't. They can rot on the bench and run out their contracts, worst case scenario they sulk and we send them home.

[Ray]

It seems most people on here are advocating for trading for Martin for 40 man roster space. If you do want to eat a substantial amount of money to clear a 40-man spot, why not eat $8M of Morales' salary? I'm sure some team will take him for ~$4M

[Jimcanuck]

This is a silly discussion. If you can move one or both of Martin and Tulo by eating most of their contract, you do it. They are a liability, if we can move some of it then great. But if you have to start adding assets to move them then you don't. They can rot on the bench and run out their contracts, worst case scenario they sulk and we send them home.

 

Depends on the term of the deal. No one here is speaking in absolutes.

 

Martin has value to the 2019 Jays, but it is possible a proposed deal with another club will eclipse that value.

[Carlos Danger]

It seems most people on here are advocating for trading for Martin for 40 man roster space. If you do want to eat a substantial amount of money to clear a 40-man spot, why not eat $8M of Morales' salary? I'm sure some team will take him for ~$4M

 

I am in the get rid of both of them camp... I don't want either...

 

I was thinking that if we still had AA, he has the tenacity to get rid of both contracts a la Vernon Wells and how he finally landed Donaldson..

 

I do not think Shatkins have the outside the box mentality to get it done... Not saying they are not good at making trades or finding value.. Just that they seem to take conventional routes. I don't see them being creative and being able get Napoli type like AA was able to rob the Angels or even get someone to pick-up his contract, which alone should have got him Exec of the Year.

[Jimcanuck]

I am in the get rid of both of them camp... I don't want either...

 

I was thinking that if we still had AA, he has the tenacity to get rid of both contracts a la Vernon Wells and how he finally landed Donaldson..

 

I do not think Shatkins have the outside the box mentality to get it done... Not saying they are not good at making trades or finding value.. Just that they seem to take conventional routes. I don't see them being creative and being able get Napoli type like AA was able to rob the Angels or even get someone to pick-up his contract, which alone should have got him Exec of the Year.

 

so now its AA vs Shatkins debate?

 

I'll take the Indians last 10 years over Jays last 10 years, easy

[Carlos Danger]

so now its AA vs Shatkins debate?

 

I'll take the Indians last 10 years over Jays last 10 years, easy

 

No, I thought I clearly stated that in this specific situation or outside the box situations..

 

If Atkins was GM in 2014/2015 do we get Donaldson in trade.. I say hell no.

 

Does Atkins get LAA to take Wells contract.. Highly doubt it.

 

Does Atkins sign Vlad, or Martin in the first place.. to Vlad I highly doubt it and to Martin I doubt it.

 

AA had some strong points and tenacity.. He is/was very creative.. They basically changed the rules after AA landed a draft pick out of that crap catcher from Colorado that he then dumped.. Can't recall his name...

 

Atkins has made some good draft picks and decent trades. However, I have so far seen nothing outside the box or even creative from Shakins... Even the way they talk is boring as f*** corporate BS and if we made the word Process into a drinking game I would be drunk and Spanky would just stay passed out..

 

So, having said that. I would be very surprised to see them get rid of both contracts.. Plenty willing to give credit if they surprise me..

 

PS: One more thing ref Shatkins... I doubt Shapiro approves the prospect capitol to get Miller down the stretch in 2016 if he was still there.. Miller was KEY to them getting back to the WS.

[Captain Adama]

No, I thought I clearly stated that in this specific situation or outside the box situations..

 

If Atkins was GM in 2014/2015 do we get Donaldson in trade.. I say hell no.

 

Does Atkins get LAA to take Wells contract.. Highly doubt it.

 

Does Atkins sign Vlad, or Martin in the first place.. to Vlad I highly doubt it and to Martin I doubt it.

 

AA had some strong points and tenacity.. He is/was very creative.. They basically changed the rules after AA landed a draft pick out of that crap catcher from Colorado that he then dumped.. Can't recall his name... Cause I'm an idiot who doesn't bother looking s*** up before I post

 

Atkins has made some good draft picks and decent trades. However, I have so far seen nothing outside the box or even creative from Shakins... Even the way they talk is boring as f*** corporate BS and if we made the word Process into a drinking game I would be drunk and Spanky would just stay passed out..

 

So, having said that. I would be very surprised to see them get rid of both contracts.. Plenty willing to give credit if they surprise me..

 

PS: One more thing ref Shatkins... I doubt Shapiro approves the prospect capitol to get Miller down the stretch in 2016 if he was still there.. Miller was KEY to them getting back to the WS.

 

This whole post was pretty bad, but these....

 

1) Tony Reagins had called AA wanting Wells, you're telling me Atkins would've refused to give Wells away when asked?

 

2) Have you heard AA speak? He was the definition of no substance.

[Spanky99]

This is a silly discussion. If you can move one or both of Martin and Tulo by eating most of their contract, you do it. They are a liability, if we can move some of it then great. But if you have to start adding assets to move them then you don't. They can rot on the bench and run out their contracts, worst case scenario they sulk and we send them home.

 

[Spanky99]

[P2F]

*checks web address* Weird, I could've sworn for a minute that I'd stumbled onto Reddit. Might be time to pack this place in, boys and girls.