General 2018 Blue Jays Discussion Thread

[Slade]

Toronto has some dumb ass fans and media. Masai trades for a top 5 player in basketball and they are butt hurt because an overrated guy who loves Toronto was sent in return. Now Alex builds a team with a one year window, Shapiro actually succeeds in getting to the playoffs in that window, and now gets criticized because something everyone knew what going to happen ended up happening (decline after 2016).

 

Insanity.

 

 

It's insane man, how can people be this dumb?

[Ray]

Top 10 farm system in the league when we were bottom third literally 2 years ago.

 

Little to no commitments in salary for the future (only $53M commited next season)

 

Ownership that clearly has made more good trades than bad

 

Hiring smart people like Ben Cherington and other personnel who have a proven track record of success.

 

Always looking at the cutting edge when it comes to having a competitive advantage (ie. investing MASSIVELY in the high performance department and getting a quality control coach)

 

The only misstep this front office has made is trying to compete in a landscape where it was a long shot, but even that’s completely understandable given that they wanted to capitalize on a hot market. Literally any other team would’ve done the same. A “rebuild” is quite literally the last resort for any sports team. And it’s not like trying to compete has set us back in any regard. We didn’t give up any draft picks or trade the farm for a reason.

[leaffie]

so if everyone else knew that this team was in decline, why are donaldson, tulowitzki, martin,sanchez etc. Still on this team in 2018?

[BTS]

so if everyone else knew that this team was in decline, why are donaldson, tulowitzki, martin,sanchez etc. Still on this team in 2018?

 

Tulo because he's a massive sunk cost and it wouldn't have been possible to move him.

Martin because he wouldn't have had any trade value, and there was no reason to dump him for whatever salary relief might have been offered.

Sanchez because his value fell off a cliff after his age-24 season.

 

Of the four you can only really make an argument that Donaldson should have been traded by now. But there were reasons for keeping him into 2018, the most obvious of which being that they were still interested in extending him long-term if they could get a reasonable deal. His 2018 has been disastrous, but maybe that means we get him back on a 1/25 deal in 2019.

[glory]

so if everyone else knew that this team was in decline, why are donaldson, tulowitzki, martin,sanchez etc. Still on this team in 2018?

 

Who was going to trade for Martin or Tulo even a year ago? Their contracts especially in the back end were always going to be unmovable. We just had to hope they contributed so we could trade them while eating some money, but I don't think teams will take them now even if the Jays covered 90%.

 

Sanchez had four years of control left and was making nothing (after 2016).

 

Donaldson should have been traded in the off-season, that I agree with, but we don't know how involved Rogers is in this process. There was talk that bringing Jose back for a year was a Rogers call. Don't know how true that is, but would not surprise me. Shapiro rebuilt like 100 times in Cleveland. i think he knows how to do it.

[Slade]

so if everyone else knew that this team was in decline, why are donaldson, tulowitzki, martin,sanchez etc. Still on this team in 2018?

 

 

Biggest mistake of Ross Atkins career not trading Martin for Soto and Tulo for Acuna.

 

 

 

http://i.imgur.com/jWNZkKV.png

[Bobthe4th]

Toronto has some dumb ass fans and media. Masai trades for a top 5 player in basketball and they are butt hurt because an overrated guy who loves Toronto was sent in return. Now Alex builds a team with a one year window, Shapiro actually succeeds in getting to the playoffs in that window, and now gets criticized because something everyone knew what going to happen ended up happening (decline after 2016).

 

Insanity.

 

Leonard sat out most of last season, will leave in a year, and might not be too happy about playing in Toronto. Understandable that some people think trading the only all star who’s ever wanted to stay long term, when the East is wide open is a risky move. IMO it’s a good trade, but that doesn’t mean it’s guaranteed to work.

 

AA will always be popular with the general fan because he was the first man to bring success to the Jays in decades (by going all in when he knew he had nothing to lose). Obviously the Shatkins era hasn’t been great at the big league level (mainly through no fault of their own) so you can’t really expect the average fan who doesn’t give a f*** about prospects or fangraphs and just wants to see a winning MLB team to be happy.

[Bobthe4th]

Who was going to trade for Martin or Tulo even a year ago? Their contracts especially in the back end were always going to be unmovable. We just had to hope they contributed so we could trade them while eating some money, but I don't think teams will take them now even if the Jays covered 90%.

 

Sanchez had four years of control left and was making nothing (after 2016).

 

Donaldson should have been traded in the off-season, that I agree with, but we don't know how involved Rogers is in this process. There was talk that bringing Jose back for a year was a Rogers call. Don't know how true that is, but would not surprise me. Shapiro rebuilt like 100 times in Cleveland. i think he knows how to do it.

 

Same thing goes for JD. Machado was shopped by the Orioles but not traded due to lack of decent offers. JD was coming off a year with lots of injuries and probably wouldn’t have got a great return.

 

In hindsight even that return would have been preferable to what we’d get now, but he could have had a good year (he was still elite last year when fit) and rebuilt value and brought in a much better return.

[Captain Adama]

This is another JP Ricciardi with a bigger payroll.

 

Aside from how completely and irretufably false this is, Riccardi with a bigger payroll would not have been a bad thing.

[Dick_Pole]

Those know nothing guys knew enough to state that the hiring of Morales and the letting Encarnacion go was a big mistake. They also knew that Donaldson should have been traded before now, when the Jays will be lucky to get someone to take an oft injured old third baseman. They said that Happ should have been traded by now, and they are right on that one. Maybe no deals have materialized, but they were still right in that Happ should be gone before his value diminishes. Shapiro has improved the farm system, no doubt. But what other results have appeared. Those know nothings also said that. They said, who will be with this team in two years and other than perhaps Guerrero, that is a good question.

 

I know that leaffie is an older lady who is polite and well respected on this board, but sorry, this is just a horrible, horrible post.

 

First, those "know nothing guys", whoever they are, would they have known enough to not cave into Bautista's demands and given him a 9-digit contract? If not, then that would already more than offset any perceived malfeasance on Shapiro's part.

 

Second, it takes two to tango on a trade. None of us knew if Donaldson and Happ were shopped with any serious intent over the past two years. If the return was s*** we would have been on their case for that. This is not the Jimcanuck world of name any player on the MLB roster and dump him for sweet prospects everyone will love because the team doesn't have a 99% chance of making the playoffs going into the year. The Jays were projected for 85ish wins and 20%+ chance of making the playoffs going into 2018. That's the type of odds that you want to at least hold onto when you're coming off hot attendance, good TV numbers and increased ticket prices. They've done nothing wrong here imo.

 

Regarding Donaldson, his struggles can only be to the team's advantage in a lost season. The Machado trade shows there is a very "meh" demand for even top-end position rental players. There was serious discussion of a long term Donaldson contract on this board well in excess of $100M. Now it's possible he could be had for a QO or maybe an Encarnacion-like deal. In a wasted season where even a 5-WAR Donaldson performance likely doesn't net a whiff of the playoffs, this is a WIN for the team.

 

Regarding Happ, what the hell are you so upset about? His value is still high. And him having one or two more starts here isn't going to make a whiff of a difference. Happ's value is much more tied to factors outside of Toronto's control, like the demand for other team's pitchers and who gets traded. Happ is very unlikely to be anyone's #1 target right now. Let the market develop!

 

Regarding EE, his 2ish/year WAR pace so far 1.5 years into the contract doesn't exactly scream "steal of the year". That means this is mostly about lamenting Morales, and yeah this board has already spilled enough milk over that. Let's move on! A $33M mistake on Morales is a drop in a bucket compared to a $330M mistake that could have happened combined on EE and Bautista with someone who had less of a backbone.

 

Finally Guerrero. Yes, he was AA's international pick. Yes he came with talent, hype and pedigree. But he just as easily could have turned into the next Travis Snider. Under Shapiro's watch he has become the #1 prospect in MLB. Some credit has to be given for player development under his watch.

[Ray]

Finally Guerrero. Yes, he was AA's international pick. Yes he came with talent, hype and pedigree. But he just as easily could have turned into the next Travis Snider. Under Shapiro's watch he has become the #1 prospect in MLB. Some credit has to be given for player development under his watch.

 

People also tend to forget that the current regime drafted Zeuch, Bichette, Biggio, Pearson, Smith and signed Hiraldo and Pardinho as IFA. That's a good chunk of our Top 15 prospects, all that have been added in the past 2 seasons.

[leaffie]

First and foremost, I am not upset about anything. This post started because someone posted about fifteen minutes of McCowans show. . I listened to it and there was Granger, Mccowan and I didnt get the last guy. They were making common sense comments about what is the direction of this club. I am not going to repeat it, it is there for the listening.

 

But they were asking relevant questions, and as a fan, it would seem to me to be important to question management for their mistakes and their successes. If there is no success on the field, how many years do fans just blindly say, well the farm system is improving. As you politely stated I am an older woman, and I probably dont have another 15 years to wait.

 

I hope I am absolutely dead wrong about Shapiro. But I have watched a build from nothing, I have seen numerous, too many to count years of mediocrity under Ash and Ricciardi, a rebuild with AA, who wasnt afraid to make a move, and,this just has the look of a management team that is afraid to do the wrong thing. Now if this is because of Rogers then Shapiro shouldnt have taken the job under those conditions.

 

If this is the plan to try and compete while rebuilding, our farm was too poor and the good prospects too far away to be successful. Shapiro knew that and yet did not step up and say our team is not good enough and tore it down. The Astros took four years to rebuild. How many years will it be for the Jays, and that was the point of the discussion. Fans are not stupid because they question the direction of a club, or the management team that is running it. And it is not a sin to disagree or to have an opposing opinion on this board

 

Back to the ballgame.

 

 

And as an aside, it was NOT me that was upset about Happ, it was the consensus in the broadcast that his value was diminishing.

[Jimcanuck]

This is not the Jimcanuck world of name any player on the MLB roster and dump him for sweet prospects everyone will love because the team doesn't have a 99% chance of making the playoffs going into the year.

 

Piss off. The only guys I was consistently advocating trading last offseason are JD and Smoak.

 

Smoak better be moved by the deadline.

[Jonn]

Piss off. The only guys I was consistently advocating trading last offseason are JD and Smoak.

 

Smoak better be moved by the deadline.

 

Smoak seems like a perfect fit for the Yankees.

[Krylian]

So you agree that it's silly the initial discussion started with "Bob McCown was right when he said the market for JA Happ was optimized weeks ago." ?

 

But he could be right or wrong. I'm not Ross Atkins and I don't know what was being offered weeks ago for Happ. Maybe his value has gone down...maybe it's gone up. I don't know. Neither do you. Neither does Bobcat. What we do know is that they f***ed up the Encarnacion thing. So there is a history of mishandling situations. Whether that will ever be repeated? Who knows...but there is a checkered history. Can't deny that.

[Krylian]

Toronto has some dumb ass fans and media. Masai trades for a top 5 player in basketball and they are butt hurt because an overrated guy who loves Toronto was sent in return. Now Alex builds a team with a one year window, Shapiro actually succeeds in getting to the playoffs in that window, and now gets criticized because something everyone knew what going to happen ended up happening (decline after 2016).

 

Insanity.

 

The issue I have is that Shapiro went against his gut and didn't tear it down when he knew that was the right thing to do. Since when do you listen to what the fans want? These fans would've voted for a John MacDonald and Kawasaki middle infield if they could. This Donaldson mismanagement I put squarely on this management team.

[Krylian]

Smoak seems like a perfect fit for the Yankees.

 

He'd be a 40 homer guy there and the idiot fans would riot and call for Shapiro's head.

[glory]

Leonard sat out most of last season, will leave in a year, and might not be too happy about playing in Toronto. Understandable that some people think trading the only all star who’s ever wanted to stay long term, when the East is wide open is a risky move. IMO it’s a good trade, but that doesn’t mean it’s guaranteed to work.

 

AA will always be popular with the general fan because he was the first man to bring success to the Jays in decades (by going all in when he knew he had nothing to lose). Obviously the Shatkins era hasn’t been great at the big league level (mainly through no fault of their own) so you can’t really expect the average fan who doesn’t give a f*** about prospects or fangraphs and just wants to see a winning MLB team to be happy.

 

Basing the front office's performance on wins and losses in 2017-18 when the team basically had a one year window (2016 - which the front office successfully took advantage of) is insane, though. Holding that opinion completely removes context. That's the definition of being uninformed. The average fan in that scenario is ignorant, as are any media who endorses that narrative.

 

I'm not saying Shatkins has been perfect, but they've had to basically tread water at the big league level and rebuild at the same time. If it lead to a WC spot either last year or this year then at least it would look better, but it was still a low upside proposition. I wouldn't blame it on them when Rogers owns this year. Rogers is known to stagnate payroll when there is a window (2014) and increase payroll when the team has sucked for a couple of years (2004, 2013). Would not surprise me at all if after 3 straight years of high attendance and ratings that they wanted to keep the money coming in at the expense of baseball decisions. As I said, Shapiro has rebuilt a bunch of times. I'm sure he knows this team needs one, but either his hands are tied, or he's decided himself to try to do both to keep revenue up and rebuild at the same time (which makes him look better to his boss's). I'm guessing it's the former.

[Jonn]

He'd be a 40 homer guy there and the idiot fans would riot and call for Shapiro's head.

 

I don't really care about the idiot fans though and neither does Shapiro. I am spit balling here but Bird has never stayed healthy and although hes hit better recently hes not exactly Mr. Reliable. Maybe a combination of Happ and Smoak with us covering Happ's salary would get us a really nice prospect return. And that's what I care about. When Smoak's contract is done its when we may start being competitive again. So I don't really care where hes playing in the mean time.

[Krylian]

I don't really care about the idiot fans though and neither does Shapiro. I am spit balling here but Bird has never stayed healthy and although hes hit better recently hes not exactly Mr. Reliable. Maybe a combination of Happ and Smoak with us covering Happ's salary would get us a really nice prospect return. And that's what I care about. When Smoak's contract is done its when we may start being competitive again. So I don't really care where hes playing in the mean time.

 

But he does. Which is why he didn't tear this thing down. He said they're trying to compete because they owe it to the fans. Dogshit.

[Abomination]

I am spit balling here but Bird has never stayed healthy and although hes hit better recently hes not exactly Mr. Reliable.

 

I'd be fine with Happ and Smoak for Bird.

[Krylian]

The trade deadline's really are the most interesting things that are going to happen with the Jays this season aren't they. Edited July 24, 2018 by Krylian

[Dick_Pole]

Piss off. The only guys I was consistently advocating trading last offseason are JD and Smoak.

 

Smoak better be moved by the deadline.

 

You were practically pissing yourself at the prospect of trading Pillar...just cuz....as well. Pretty sure other guys are on that list too.

[Sammy225]

The issue I have is that Shapiro went against his gut and didn't tear it down when he knew that was the right thing to do. Since when do you listen to what the fans want? These fans would've voted for a John MacDonald and Kawasaki middle infield if they could. This Donaldson mismanagement I put squarely on this management team.

 

I don’t really know if that’s all shatkins though. How much pressure do you think they were under from ownership to contend again

[Krylian]

I don’t really know if that’s all shatkins though. How much pressure do you think they were under from ownership to contend again

 

That's a fair question. But as President I'd like to think that he'd have more say than that.

[SaskJaysFan_2]

I don't really care about the idiot fans though and neither does Shapiro. I am spit balling here but Bird has never stayed healthy and although hes hit better recently hes not exactly Mr. Reliable. Maybe a combination of Happ and Smoak with us covering Happ's salary would get us a really nice prospect return. And that's what I care about. When Smoak's contract is done its when we may start being competitive again. So I don't really care where hes playing in the mean time.

 

I like that, the more prospects we can pry from that f***ing franchise that could bite them in the ass for years to come the better. They will play against the Yanks just a little harder I presume.

 

And about 1B, Tellez is finally starting to come around on offense and you know, Joey Bats may make a decent 1B. Just spit balling.

[SaskJaysFan_2]

That's a fair question. But as President I'd like to think that he'd have more say than that.

 

I honestly think Shapiro can increase payroll whenever he wants to, especially if the right deal comes along. I am 100% sure he has allowance to take on a bad contract if it means a larger prospect haul in a trade.

[John_Havok]

I honestly think Shapiro can increase payroll whenever he wants to, especially if the right deal comes along. I am 100% sure he has allowance to take on a bad contract if it means a larger prospect haul in a trade.

 

It would be case by case. He would absolutely need ownership approval to increase payroll. He wouldn't be able to do it on his own.

[Laika]

Smoak has a $6M no-brainer option for 2019.

 

Wait it out until after 2019 and re-assess, or try to extend him now?

 

He's keeping all of the gains from 2017. HR rate is down somewhat but the BB% is up and the overall offense is basically just as good. He will be 32 next year.

 

OR - trade him now or in the offseason if the return is nice?

[Jonn]

Smoak has a $6M no-brainer option for 2019.

 

Wait it out until after 2019 and re-assess, or try to extend him now?

 

He's keeping all of the gains from 2017. HR rate is down somewhat but the BB% is up and the overall offense is basically just as good. He will be 32 next year.

 

OR - trade him now or in the offseason if the return is nice?

 

I think they should trade him if they get a good return. You definitely don't give him an extension. First Baseman have next to no value on the open market unless you're Eric Hosmer apparently. Either you get your best return now or you just play it out year to year with him.