Lack of home-grown premium hitters...

[vilifyingforce]

Who came first... Carlos Delgado or Shawn Green?

 

Delgado.

[vilifyingforce]

One could argue Jayson Werth was developed by the Jays, he tried and failed at AA twice(with the O's) before getting dumped to the Jays(for John Bale who was not impressive) where he improved his OPS by 170 points in AA after a quick stopover in Dunedin.

 

Josh Phelps could hit pretty well. Lifetime .815 OPS

 

Reed Johnson could hit lefties, career .817 OPS

[Brownie19]

This thread is ridiculous as the Jays have one of the most talented offenses in the league over the last couple of years. Why the hell does is matter if the studs on our roster were drafted by the Jays or not? None of them were free agents signings, so as long as the organization makes savvy moves to keep the offense potent and the team contending, who gives a f*** where the talent originated?

 

Turn it down a notch. It's an interesting observation and discussion. Nothing wrong with some different topics on the board. The Jays haven't been able to draft quality position players for almost 2 decades now. It is a bit odd...

[Brownie19]

Oh that's probably why they are called performance enhancing drugs...

 

I've always equated shawns green to incubus. Hear me out. Started out promising/sexy even (s.c.i.e.n.c.e. Album) and got super popular shortly after canseco/make yourself album) then got lame and fell off the map surprisingly fast.

One theory was that green was on ped and hoobastank just did a better impersonation of incubus than actual incubus.

 

Hey - I still love Incubus.....they did fall off a cliff though.

[vilifyingforce]

Turn it down a notch. It's an interesting observation and discussion. Nothing wrong with some different topics on the board. The Jays haven't been able to draft quality position players for almost 2 decades now. It is a bit odd...

 

It's sort of interesting, but, to exclude good position players and just focus on 'premium hitters' is silly imo. As is ignoring the development of pitchers as a reason why we haven't seen a good position player come along for a little while now.

[jaysfan2014]

One could argue Jayson Werth was developed by the Jays, he tried and failed at AA twice(with the O's) before getting dumped to the Jays(for John Bale who was not impressive) where he improved his OPS by 170 points in AA after a quick stopover in Dunedin.

 

Josh Phelps could hit pretty well. Lifetime .815 OPS

 

Reed Johnson could hit lefties, career .817 OPS

 

Josh Phelps?? He was never a premium player--he flamed out after 2004.. basically becoming a AAAA guy. At least Reed Johnson had a solid career--and JP Riccardi was stupid to give him up because they thought a washed-up Shannon Stewart was better..

[Brownie19]

Could add O-Dog. He had a solid career and was drafted by the Jays. And what about ROY Eric Hinske??? pinch hitter master...

 

 

What happened to Rios btw? did he officially retire yet? I guess it's kind of hard to stick around the majors when you don't really like baseball to start with (and you're a jerk).

[Brownie19]

It's sort of interesting, but, to exclude good position players and just focus on 'premium hitters' is silly imo. As is ignoring the development of pitchers as a reason why we haven't seen a good position player come along for a little while now.

 

I'm find with ignoring pitchers and just focusing on our inability to draft good position players (perhaps I missed that we were looking at premium hitters only). Even if you focus on pitching during the draft, even by luck alone you should stubble on some decent position players somewhere along the way.

[vilifyingforce]

Josh Phelps?? He was never a premium player--he flamed out after 2004.. basically becoming a AAAA guy. At least Reed Johnson had a solid career--and JP Riccardi was stupid to give him up because they thought a washed-up Shannon Stewart was better..

 

He had a 902 OPS in 2007, but, yes, his career was short. Talent doesn't improve because you survive longer in the game, I forget what drove him out of the game, but, I seem to recall injuries playing a part.

[vilifyingforce]

Could add O-Dog. He had a solid career and was drafted by the Jays. And what about ROY Eric Hinske??? pinch hitter master...

 

 

What happened to Rios btw? did he officially retire yet? I guess it's kind of hard to stick around the majors when you don't really like baseball to start with (and you're a jerk).

 

Hinske only played 2 games in the minors for the Jays, wasn't really developed here. Arguments could be made for Jayson Werth and Casey Blake being developed here. Same with Michael Young.

[AdamGreenwood]

It's a good topic.

I've noticed it too. Jays are incredibly lucky to have the offense that we have given how bad our drafting/development of hitters has been.

 

The reason it's important, is, if we are really bad at it, then, we need to either:

 

1) Re-evaluate our drafting process. I know at one point, under AA, we were all about the athletic players. Then Gose taught us that having the hit tool is kinda important.

2) Re-evaluate our development process. We seem to have ruined some decent hitting prospects (Lawrie, Hinske, Snider).

3) Forget about developing hitters. We kick ass at developing pitchers. Focus on that, and then trade for the hitters that we need.

[vilifyingforce]

It's a good topic.

I've noticed it too. Jays are incredibly lucky to have the offense that we have given how bad our drafting/development of hitters has been.

 

The reason it's important, is, if we are really bad at it, then, we need to either:

 

1) Re-evaluate our drafting process. I know at one point, under AA, we were all about the athletic players. Then Gose taught us that having the hit tool is kinda important.

2) Re-evaluate our development process. We seem to have ruined some decent hitting prospects (Lawrie, Hinske, Snider).

3) Forget about developing hitters. We kick ass at developing pitchers. Focus on that, and then trade for the hitters that we need.

 

I think writing the teams offense as simply lucky is an incredible disservice to the pro talent evaluators and instructors who have been around the team the last several seasons.

[Jimcanuck]

Surprised no one has mentioned Shannon Stewart yet. Several years averaging 3+ WAR.

 

He came after Green, prior to Rios and Wells.

[Grant77]

Could add O-Dog. He had a solid career and was drafted by the Jays. And what about ROY Eric Hinske??? pinch hitter master...

 

 

What happened to Rios btw? did he officially retire yet? I guess it's kind of hard to stick around the majors when you don't really like baseball to start with (and you're a jerk).

 

We didn't draft Hinske or even develop him much.

[John_Havok]

What's the point of this discussion?

 

Whether you draft and develop players that end up on your major league team and you end up competing for a world series, or whether you use your drafted and developed players to trade for major league talent that fills your roster and you compete for a world series, what's the difference?

 

No team in baseball succeeds with 100% homegrown players, so why does the % of homegrown talent matter if the end result is a world series?

 

Maybe the warm and fuzzy feelings of drafting and developing make the world series win more meaningful?

[L54]

The point is the Jays have three major contributors offensively slated to hit the FA market, and fans are starting to wonder how that production will be replaced if they can't internally.

[Captain Adama]

What's the point of this discussion?

 

Whether you draft and develop players that end up on your major league team and you end up competing for a world series, or whether you use your drafted and developed players to trade for major league talent that fills your roster and you compete for a world series, what's the difference?

 

No team in baseball succeeds with 100% homegrown players, so why does the % of homegrown talent matter if the end result is a world series?

 

Maybe the warm and fuzzy feelings of drafting and developing make the world series win more meaningful?

 

The arbitrary attributes "defined" has created this really dumb criteria what for what defines "homegrown" and "elite" Like...who cares? You apply this to every team and suddenly, most of them have trouble creating premium talent. Just win FFS.

[vilifyingforce]

The point is the Jays have three major contributors offensively slated to hit the FA market, and fans are starting to wonder how that production will be replaced if they can't internally.

 

Thankfully next season is still months(months!) away. There's no guarantee the three of them are gone, not that Bautista has done anything to help the Jays win this season, or Saunders since the ASG. If those 3 are major contributor's that must give the Jays six major contributors offensively, holy crap that's kind awesome! They may also sign Free Agents if there are no options found internally. Or trade with Billy Beane again.

[Brownie19]

We didn't draft Hinske or even develop him much.

 

My bad. Forgot we traded Koch for Hinske! Ahhh good times

[JoeCarter]

What's the point of this discussion?

 

Whether you draft and develop players that end up on your major league team and you end up competing for a world series, or whether you use your drafted and developed players to trade for major league talent that fills your roster and you compete for a world series, what's the difference?

 

No team in baseball succeeds with 100% homegrown players, so why does the % of homegrown talent matter if the end result is a world series?

 

Maybe the warm and fuzzy feelings of drafting and developing make the world series win more meaningful?

 

Lol, you're right: why don't we just replace every single thread on this message board with one single thread entitled "TEECH ME HOW TO WIN TEH WORLD SERIEZZZZZ!!!!"

 

Sometimes individual topics merit a discussion. If you don't want to be part of it, you can show yourself out.

[5minutesforframing]

Lol, you're right: why don't we just replace every single thread on this message board with one single thread entitled "TEECH ME HOW TO WIN TEH WORLD SERIEZZZZZ!!!!"

 

Sometimes individual topics merit a discussion. If you don't want to be part of it, you can show yourself out.

 

Calm down Joe.

[Krylian]

Calm down Joe.

 

He is calm...and he is right.

[Orgfiller]

Lol, you're right: why don't we just replace every single thread on this message board with one single thread entitled "TEECH ME HOW TO WIN TEH WORLD SERIEZZZZZ!!!!"

 

Sometimes individual topics merit a discussion. If you don't want to be part of it, you can show yourself out.

 

[Olerud363]

Lol, you're right: why don't we just replace every single thread on this message board with one single thread entitled "TEECH ME HOW TO WIN TEH WORLD SERIEZZZZZ!!!!"

 

Sometimes individual topics merit a discussion. If you don't want to be part of it, you can show yourself out.

 

Joe -- is there a board that reaches a happy medium??

 

This board has excessive government and to much regulation -- there are not enough threads because the government only allows a limited number of threads.. so it is a bit like North Korea media... where you only get a couple of TV Channels

 

The other board did not have effective regulation -- so there were way too many threads and in particular too many dog threads

 

In a perfect world there would be a perfect board that reflected a perfect political system... but alas there is no perfection in our world

 

Perhaps you could visit Orioles hangout... that might be a nice play. I do not know as I do not have a membership to that website.

[KingKat]

I don't think Havok's point was that there are too many threads on this board. I think he was just saying that he thought this thread in particular was a clown thread.

[John_Havok]

Pretty much.

 

I'm morbidly curious as to if it realy matters to the OP or if it's just a discussion point to kill time...

[TheHurl]

So a better question is...do you need to draft (or sign as an amateur FA) and develop your hitters to be effective. Of the starting 9 (I'll say projected starting 9 in case of current injuries) of the top 10 offense in the majors this year, I'll figure out the D&D hitters:

 

Red Sox 6

Mariners 2

Indians 5 (4 depending on what OF you put out for Brantley)

Cubs 2

Cards 4

Jays 1

O's 3

Tigers 2

Angels 2

Giants 4

 

 

5 worst

Braves 1

Phillies 5

Reds 5

Royals 4

Yankees 3

 

From this I conclude that nothing was proven...you can win without drafting and developing or you can lose.

[Laika]

So a better question is...do you need to draft (or sign as an amateur FA) and develop your hitters to be effective. Of the starting 9 (I'll say projected starting 9 in case of current injuries) of the top 10 offense in the majors this year, I'll figure out the D&D hitters:

 

Red Sox 6

Mariners 2

Indians 5 (4 depending on what OF you put out for Brantley)

Cubs 2

Cards 4

Jays 1

O's 3

Tigers 2

Angels 2

Giants 4

 

 

5 worst

Braves 1

Phillies 5

Reds 5

Royals 4

Yankees 3

 

From this I conclude that nothing was proven...you can win without drafting and developing or you can lose.

 

Every team these days needs some portion of cost controlled talent (first 6 years of control). The amount needed depends on payroll!

 

Toronto is in a decent spot right now with some D&D and therefore cost controlled dudes: Aaron, Marcus, Roberto, Devon, Kevin... a couple more would be nice. It helps that they are all actual DUDES though; stars and borderline stars.

[TheHurl]

Every team these days needs some portion of cost controlled talent (first 6 years of control). The amount needed depends on payroll!

 

Toronto is in a decent spot right now with some D&D and therefore cost controlled dudes: Aaron, Marcus, Roberto, Devon, Kevin... a couple more would be nice. It helps that they are all actual DUDES though; stars and borderline stars.

 

I've always liked the theory of develop your pitchers, buy your hitters.

[Orgfiller]

Are you not including IFA's? If so then the Cubs would have Contreras, Baez, Soler and Bryant.