Jays to go with six-man rotation for the time being

[glory]

Extra rest for starters is a good thing (especially Sanchez, Estrada, and Stroman for different reasons), but I can't see this lasting long. Someone is going to struggle and they'll be pushed aside or skipped.

 

This does appear to be a PR move to placate Sanchez and probably a lot of his teammates. Maybe they were not expecting the backlash that they got. There are ways to work around this without putting him in the pen, they'll just need to skip him some times and/or make sure Gibbons does not extend him in games unnecessarily (this is the tough one since Gibby keeps starters in the game for 100 pitches regardless of performance).

[vilifyingforce]

It's not a new concept. Have heard that argument for decades. Whether it's an old wives tale I don't know... But I'm guessing there has to be some sort of data that would have lead to this argument being raised in the first place.

 

I guess we'll wait and see what happens.

 

Bottom line. Nothing would be better than all 6 performing well.

 

Maybe they're over throwing because they're rested just a it more then usual? Seems like hooey to me, pretty sure the Japanese league run with 6 men rotation to seemingly no ill effect.

[RealAccountant]

Apparently player pressure had a lot to do with it if you believe Griffin

[Jonn]

Call it whatever you want. Shapiro and Atkins wanted to try something different. I would like to think most players understand this situation gets played out every year. If we are .500 right now nobody is talking about it. As much as a 6 man rotation is annoying. I'd rather he continues to start over going to the pen where Gibbons would be tempted to use him everynight. If Lirano and Dickey give us a chance to win this will work out beautifully.

 

The piggy backing days appear to be over. Sean Reid-Foley isn't being treated with kid gloves. Hes being pushed in starts and despite how fast he comes. Will have built up enough innings to hit the ground running. Knock on wood.

[puphood]

Lot of face saving going on here as number 2 goes out to face the players. With a 6 man rotation Martin will be worked more which may or may not be good....Kratz in the wings

[Governator]

Lot of face saving going on here as number 2 goes out to face the players. With a 6 man rotation Martin will be worked more which may or may not be good....Kratz in the wings

 

That's a great point.

[glory]

Osuna has thrown 4 times in 5 days.

 

With Gibbons managing, it would be hard to make a convincing argument that Sanchez is less likely to get hurt in the pen. He will be run to the ground in the pen. At least Gibbons has been fairly consistent at keeping him at around 100 pitches as a starter.

 

I understand Shapiro's argument, but without more science based fact about whether it actually helps a starter remain healthy, it's kind of pointless. With how hard Sanchez throws, he could get hurt at any moment. There's really no way to predict it or prevent it.

[Angrioter]

53 games remains

 

53/6 = 9 outings

53/5 = 11 outings

 

 

This move is about rest, not about innings. This will lasts 1 or 2 rounds in the rotation, if Liriano can stick then Sanchez will pitch out of the bullpen; also will depend of the standing

[glory]

Lot of face saving going on here as number 2 goes out to face the players. With a 6 man rotation Martin will be worked more which may or may not be good....Kratz in the wings

 

I was curious about this as well. They'll have to have Thole catch at least one more starter in addition to Dickey to avoid Martin burning out. They want Martin to "fix" Liriano so Thole won't be catching him. Might have to mix him in during a Estrada or Happ start every now and then.

[GeorgiaPeach]

They certainly discussed the possibility. I think everyone believes in him, we just don't have the luxury to deal with a bunch of stinkers down the stretch.

 

Say Liriano throws up a couple of good starts and Dickey gets rocked. Does Dickey go to the 'pen? And if so, why not?

[Jonn]

Osuna has thrown 4 times in 5 days.

 

With Gibbons managing, it would be hard to make a convincing argument that Sanchez is less likely to get hurt in the pen. He will be run to the ground in the pen. At least Gibbons has been fairly consistent at keeping him at around 100 pitches as a starter.

 

I understand Shapiro's argument, but without more science based fact about whether it actually helps a starter remain healthy, it's kind of pointless. With how hard Sanchez throws, he could get hurt at any moment. There's really no way to predict it or prevent it.

 

Sanchez isn't really a max effort guy though. He doesn't need to throw as hard as he can to hit 95-96. It did appear he was trying to over throw in his last start vs Baltimore though. He wasn't practically good in that outing despite the 7 innings and 2 earned runs.

 

I don't want to see Sanchez being used like Osuna though either. That would be the nail in his coffin. Osuna has been used in some bizarre situations this year. And nights we could have really used him hes been unavailable. Lets hope Grilli, Benoit, and Cecil can do an adequate job down the stretch so we don't have to see Osuna with 4 run leads or nightmare situations where he already has to come in with runners on instead of starting a clean inning because Gibbons tried to strech his starter to far.

[Jonn]

I was curious about this as well. They'll have to have Thole catch at least one more starter in addition to Dickey to avoid Martin burning out. They want Martin to "fix" Liriano so Thole won't be catching him. Might have to mix him in during a Estrada or Happ start every now and then.

 

If I had to pick someone else for Thole to catch it would be Stroman. Leave Sanchez, Happ, and Estrada alone. Rosters can't expand quick enough. Martin is going to have to be horse in August. I doubt he gets much time off unless its a day game after a night game. They might try to align Dickey to pitch those games as often as they possibly can.

[RealAccountant]

With the whitesox out the Jays should find a way to reacquire Navarro ( I don't think anyone else will want him) and get him on the roster on Aug 31.

 

We aren't going to be using Thole in the playoffs

[The Cats Ass]

With the whitesox out the Jays should find a way to reacquire Navarro ( I don't think anyone else will want him) and get him on the roster on Aug 31.

 

We aren't going to be using Thole in the playoffs

 

You don't really need a 2nd catcher in the playoffs. You'd only need them if the starter got injured.

[Krylian]

Maybe they're over throwing because they're rested just a it more then usual? Seems like hooey to me, pretty sure the Japanese league run with 6 men rotation to seemingly no ill effect.

 

How would you know there's no affect in the Japanese league if they don't do 5 man rotations? Need a comparison base.

[jays4life19]

Maybe they're over throwing because they're rested just a it more then usual? Seems like hooey to me, pretty sure the Japanese league run with 6 men rotation to seemingly no ill effect.

 

They do but they also throw more pitches per game.

[RealAccountant]

You don't really need a 2nd catcher in the playoffs. You'd only need them if the starter got injured.

 

Right and if Martin did get injured we are looking at Thole starting or Kratz

[Grant77]

Osuna has thrown 4 times in 5 days.

 

With Gibbons managing, it would be hard to make a convincing argument that Sanchez is less likely to get hurt in the pen. He will be run to the ground in the pen. At least Gibbons has been fairly consistent at keeping him at around 100 pitches as a starter.

 

I understand Shapiro's argument, but without more science based fact about whether it actually helps a starter remain healthy, it's kind of pointless. With how hard Sanchez throws, he could get hurt at any moment. There's really no way to predict it or prevent it.

 

Your closer has to step up to the plate in save situations. He's mixed in Barnes and Biagini in set up situations and used Grilli for a save, but there's only so much he can do.

[vilifyingforce]

How would you know there's no affect in the Japanese league if they don't do 5 man rotations? Need a comparison base.

 

I think the only difference is changing a guys routine. Do they do pitch f/x for the NPB?

[vilifyingforce]

Right and if Martin did get injured we are looking at Thole starting or Kratz

 

Atkins said a few days ago that AJ Jimenez will likely be given a shot down the stretch. Mentioned him by name.

[Brownie19]

 

This move is about rest, not about innings. This will lasts 1 or 2 rounds in the rotation, if Liriano can stick then Sanchez will pitch out of the bullpen; also will depend of the standing

 

Say Liriano throws up a couple of good starts and Dickey gets rocked. Does Dickey go to the 'pen? And if so, why not?

 

I truly think they are just buying some time to evaluate a number of things.

 

1. Can Liriano turn it around.

2. Can Dickey turn it around.

3. Can Sanchez remain strong.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if they run the 6 man rotation 3 times through and then re-evaluate and go from there. In the meantime, Estrada's back and old man Dickey get more rest and innings get limited for Sanchez and Stroman. The only guy who doesn't benefit is Happ - who's f***ing rolling right now.

 

That actually seems like a really smart/logical approach if you ask me.

[vilifyingforce]

They do but they also throw more pitches per game.

 

How many though? I looked at Yu Darvish and admittedly him alone just out of curiosity.

 

He averaged just under 7.2IP per start in NPB over 164 starts(he has 3 games in relief that I ignored as I can't find the data on how much he threw in those 3 games so the number is insignificantly higher then reality)

 

In the MLB over 90 starts he averaged right in between 6 and 1/2 and 2/3 IP per starts. Given the differences in his WHIP between the two leagues I'm not sure he would of actually averaged more pitches.

[RealAccountant]

Atkins said a few days ago that AJ Jimenez will likely be given a shot down the stretch. Mentioned him by name.

 

I don't think a backup catcher with no mlb experience should be considered the right debt

 

We should get Navarro who has exp with the staff and has good chemistry

[THANOS]

I truly think they are just buying some time to evaluate a number of things.

 

1. Can Liriano turn it around.

2. Can Dickey turn it around.

3. Can Sanchez remain strong.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if they run the 6 man rotation 3 times through and then re-evaluate and go from there. In the meantime, Estrada's back and old man Dickey get more rest and innings get limited for Sanchez and Stroman. The only guy who doesn't benefit is Happ - who's f***ing rolling right now.

 

That actually seems like a really smart/logical approach if you ask me.

 

Well, if there's any truth to the extra day adding velocity and only hurting sinker ball pitchers, then Happ could actually get a boost in effectiveness?

[KingKat]

Anyone know if McGuire has worked with Happ and Liriano in the past? Seems possible that he might have caught them in spring training last year. I don't think they'll add him to the 40 this year unless they have to but if something were to happen to Martin, he's probably the next best catcher on the depth chart and he might have some passing familiarity with at least part of the rotation. None of Kratz, Jimenez or Thole can hit a lick.

[vilifyingforce]

Anyone know if McGuire has worked with Happ and Liriano in the past? Seems possible that he might have caught them in spring training last year. I don't think they'll add him to the 40 this year unless they have to but if something were to happen to Martin, he's probably the next best catcher on the depth chart and he might have some passing familiarity with at least part of the rotation. None of Kratz, Jimenez or Thole can hit a lick.

 

Happ wasn't in Pitts for ST last season and the knock on McGuire is he can't hit a lick either.

[Maine Jays]

You don't really need a 2nd catcher in the playoffs. You'd only need them if the starter got injured.

 

And if Martin gets injured, we're starting Thole. If that isn't enough to make you puke in your mouth...

[vilifyingforce]

And if Martin gets injured, we're starting Thole. If that isn't enough to make you puke in your mouth...

 

Almost any team would be faced with having a garbage player get playing time.

 

CLE would be playing Chris Gimenez(501OPS)

BAL would be playing Caleb Joseph(468OPS)

TEX would be playing Bobby Wilson (629OPS)

HOU would be the exception with Castro and Gattis

[Governator]

Almost any team would be faced with having a garbage player get playing time.

 

CLE would be playing Chris Gimenez(501OPS)

BAL would be playing Caleb Joseph(468OPS)

TEX would be playing Bobby Wilson (629OPS)

HOU would be the exception with Castro and Gattis

 

 

That's not necessarily true. A lot of team's AAA starter are solid depth options but maybe not worth wasting as back ups? Earlier this year the Rangers played us with their AAA catcher, Brent Nicholas who has a solid bat (he smacked a homer against us).

[Atothe]

Anyone know if McGuire has worked with Happ and Liriano in the past? Seems possible that he might have caught them in spring training last year. I don't think they'll add him to the 40 this year unless they have to but if something were to happen to Martin, he's probably the next best catcher on the depth chart and he might have some passing familiarity with at least part of the rotation. None of Kratz, Jimenez or Thole can hit a lick.

 

Neither can McGuire. He's all glove