General 2016 Blue Jays discussion thread

[puphood]

Well old people get banged up more and slow down a lot. I think a lot of it has to do with the growing age. Durability usually goes down as age climbs. Obviously Donaldson's an exception because he's playing through a leg injury since May and a recent hip injury.

 

But that's not even really my argument lol. What I meant to say with my original post is when people talk about an old group of players they usually say its good to have "experience" on your side. Where's this experience when we've seen so many blunders, why isn't the belt being tightened? This team looks like they're accepting the fact they're free-falling. Maybe there's a problem with leadership? Not enough leaders?

 

Or maybe there's a clubhouse issue? I don't know what exactly is the problem but it doesn't look like anyone wants to really win right now. You can see after strikeouts, very tame depressed looks going back to the dugout.

I think this leadership/club house issue is right on the money. There are some big personalities on this club and their relationship with each other is questionable.....

[THANOS]

Well old people get banged up more and slow down a lot. I think a lot of it has to do with the growing age. Durability usually goes down as age climbs. Obviously Donaldson's an exception because he's playing through a leg injury since May and a recent hip injury.

 

But that's not even really my argument lol. What I meant to say with my original post is when people talk about an old group of players they usually say its good to have "experience" on your side. Where's this experience when we've seen so many blunders, why isn't the belt being tightened? This team looks like they're accepting the fact they're free-falling. Maybe there's a problem with leadership? Not enough leaders?

 

Or maybe there's a clubhouse issue? I don't know what exactly is the problem but it doesn't look like anyone wants to really win right now. You can see after strikeouts, very tame depressed looks going back to the dugout.

 

That's the biggest thing. No one looks to give a f*** about the free-fall.

[VE2OH]

That's the biggest thing. No one looks to give a f*** about the free-fall.

 

Just a guess, but ever since they (management) screwed with the rotation, the pitchers were the first to show their displeasure, and now the rest of the team is also upset with management.

JD's blow up with Gibby just one example.

[Olerud363]

Travis one of the few guys producing, despite his bone headed base running 2 nights ago.

 

Vetrin presents is one of the most over rated value adds in baseball. A young Yankees team just swept our asses.

 

I'm finding it nauseating to listen to Buck and Tabby fap on about it while we get crushed in Sept.

 

It's Nauseating listening to them...

 

Pat - "I'd send the runner... You gotta get something going"

 

Buck - "No question... They can't sit back and just wait for the 3 run homer"

 

(runner get;s caught stealing)

 

You can f***ing sit back and wait for the 3 run homer.. it works. If it doesn't math doesn't work.

[fatcowxlive]

Just a guess, but ever since they (management) screwed with the rotation, the pitchers were the first to show their displeasure, and now the rest of the team is also upset with management.

JD's blow up with Gibby just one example.

 

What? Atkins presented scenarios to Gibby, Walker and the pitching staff in person and they chose with the 6 man what are you talking about? Thats why Gibby doesn't want any more complaints about the 6 man rotation, they chose it, gotta bite the bullet if your regret it

[Olerud363]

It's worth noting that we're an average age team with 3 40 year old pitchers that haven't been the problem during this slump.

 

??? We are 3rd oldest batter, 2nd oldest pitcher...

 

We are old. The core of offense is 5 slow right handed sluggers with an average age of 33.... Bill James would say that's not an offense, that's a recipe for 150 double plays

[CHRIS]

What? Atkins presented scenarios to Gibby, Walker and the pitching staff in person and they chose with the 6 man what are you talking about? Thats why Gibby doesn't want any more complaints about the 6 man rotation, they chose it, gotta bite the bullet if your regret it

 

I haven't seen the full agenda for the pitching/6-man rotation meeting, but I strongly feel they should have deferred the "team never hits again" bullet point for the offseason.

[puphood]

http://bluejayhunter.com/2016/09/can-the-blue-jays-hit-88-wins-and-fend-off-their-wild-card-rivals.html

 

The Jays have in a less than a month gone from winning the division, to winning the WC to .....Can they get to 88....?

[fatcowxlive]

I haven't seen the full agenda for the pitching/6-man rotation meeting, but I strongly feel they should have deferred the "team never hits again" bullet point for the offseason.

 

hahaha

 

But seriously though, this team the whole season hasn't hit. We've had hotspots here and there but overall our offence wasn't doing as good as we thought they were. At least for me I love looking at RD, but then I realized this team has been riding the rotation for much of the season. I mean if we take Stromans terrible starts this year and give him last year's offence he'd come out a winner. I just can't help but think imagine this rotation that we had matched with the offensive output of last season... Like literally when Estrada's back starts acting up more and Sanchez gets rusty the problem with the offence became so much more prevalent. Even our BP, they've done a GREAT job this second half and seeing Biagini and Grilli become less sharp down the stretch is just a side effect of how bad the offence is. They continue to not hit so when the starters go through the rough stretch we saw against NY and Boston we overwork them.

 

Above all, the mental hiccups and bad defence really reflects the team has either a really big problem or is really depressed

[Olerud363]

http://bluejayhunter.com/2016/09/can-the-blue-jays-hit-88-wins-and-fend-off-their-wild-card-rivals.html

 

The Jays have in a less than a month gone from winning the division, to winning the WC to .....Can they get to 88....?

 

If they got 88 they'd still have a decent chance of getting a wild card ...

 

If Implosion continues the final number will be a little less than that.

 

Not much time left.

[RealAccountant]

The Six Man rotation was the beginning of the downfall. Whether it actually impacted and started something negative we will never know

 

Navarro trade didn't help much. He may have restarted those cliques we heard about in 2014.

[BigCecil]

He has had a s*** yr in WAS so ill probably get slaughtered for this, but this team really misses what LHH Revere did for us 2015.

 

No power and didn't walk much but he had a .354 OBP and was slashing the ball all over with speed. Tons of contact and only 28Ks.

 

He played better D than we get from Saunders, who has had a miserable 2nd half along with Smoak who were supposed to be our LH bats.

[jerb]

 

Andy

‏@_rallycap

 

#BlueJays hanging on to the Wild Card https://t.co/3XGBsR4Wc5

[jaysfan2014]

He has had a s*** yr in WAS so ill probably get slaughtered for this, but this team really misses what LHH Revere did for us 2015.

 

No power and didn't walk much but he had a .354 OBP and was slashing the ball all over with speed. Tons of contact and only 28Ks.

 

He played better D than we get from Saunders, who has had a miserable 2nd half along with Smoak who were supposed to be our LH bats.

 

Ben Revere has been garbage in Washington. .261 OBP, but the D's been good. However, his numbers have been so awful Washington stopped playing him regularly.

[VE2OH]

What? Atkins presented scenarios to Gibby, Walker and the pitching staff in person and they chose with the 6 man what are you talking about? Thats why Gibby doesn't want any more complaints about the 6 man rotation, they chose it, gotta bite the bullet if your regret it

 

Does that mean they liked it.

Just look at the record since that happened.!!!!!!

[LGBJ29]

Does that mean they liked it.

Just look at the record since that happened.!!!!!!

 

you're out to lunch if you think their pitching has been the problem

[Brownie19]

hahaha

 

But seriously though, this team the whole season hasn't hit. We've had hotspots here and there but overall our offence wasn't doing as good as we thought they were. At least for me I love looking at RD, but then I realized this team has been riding the rotation for much of the season. I mean if we take Stromans terrible starts this year and give him last year's offence he'd come out a winner. I just can't help but think imagine this rotation that we had matched with the offensive output of last season... Like literally when Estrada's back starts acting up more and Sanchez gets rusty the problem with the offence became so much more prevalent. Even our BP, they've done a GREAT job this second half and seeing Biagini and Grilli become less sharp down the stretch is just a side effect of how bad the offence is. They continue to not hit so when the starters go through the rough stretch we saw against NY and Boston we overwork them.

 

Above all, the mental hiccups and bad defence really reflects the team has either a really big problem or is really depressed

 

Is Sanchez really rusty? or is he simply tired and wore out by all the innings?

[Brownie19]

That's the biggest thing. No one looks to give a f*** about the free-fall.

 

From my experience. Jumping up and down and yelling at one another to try harder is also ineffective. Baseball is a grind. You can't get too high or too low. I'm not even sure WTF you guy think it looks like when they are "trying to win".

[fatcowxlive]

Does that mean they liked it.

Just look at the record since that happened.!!!!!!

 

I don't think the record since that happened really has anything to do with the starting rotation. Because if you look close into those games you'll see Sanchez -- who has been our best pitcher pitched way less than he did before and his starts were taken away by Dickey and Liriano, both doing meh in that role. Happ had a slight regression which was expected, and Stroman was the positive in the rotation. As for Estrada it came out that he wasn't healthy and is pitching with a herniated disk, which makes sense why he's a CY Young pitcher for 4-5 innings before blowing up in the last inning before he gets pulled. It seems like there's a limit where his back goes which makes the fastball and curveball hard to spot and the changup flatter than a BP fastball.

 

Is Sanchez really rusty? or is he simply tired and wore out by all the innings?

 

I think he's rusty. Lots of great movement still on his pitches and velo didn't drop, but it would make sense that pitching every like 9 days you lose your touch. His biggest issue has been his walks but his stuff is still there. Also I believe (could be talking out of my ass here but based on what I've seen) he gets better as the game has went on for his past 3 starts. It's his first few innings that are loaded with walks.

[BigCecil]

Ben Revere has been garbage in Washington. .261 OBP, but the D's been good. However, his numbers have been so awful Washington stopped playing him regularly.

 

I know that. He has also had some injuries. Im just contrasting(lamenting) what seemed to work last year for the final 70+ game of the season that is missing now.

[Brownie19]

It's Nauseating listening to them...

 

Pat - "I'd send the runner... You gotta get something going"

 

Buck - "No question... They can't sit back and just wait for the 3 run homer"

 

(runner get;s caught stealing)

 

You can f***ing sit back and wait for the 3 run homer.. it works. If it doesn't math doesn't work.

 

Honestly - is there anything (besides the actually play by play) those 2 f***s say that isn't nauseating? They are a broken record. By my count, they are a perfect 149 for 149 in suggesting someone from the Jays should simply bunt or slap the ball against the shift. To suggest the nonsense they spit out is what the general public wants to hear makes me want to donkey punch a lot of people.

[Brownie19]

I think he's rusty. Lots of great movement still on his pitches and velo didn't drop, but it would make sense that pitching every like 9 days you lose your touch. His biggest issue has been his walks but his stuff is still there. Also I believe (could be talking out of my ass here but based on what I've seen) he gets better as the game has went on for his past 3 starts. It's his first few innings that are loaded with walks.

 

No offense, but this reminds me of when people assuming the 6 man rotation was screwing up Estrada....when all along it's been the herniated disk in his back.

 

If they kept Sanchez in the rotation and he blows out his arm - management is stupid because they didn't protect him

If they shut down Sanchez - management is stupid because they need to win

If they put Sanchez in the bullpen - management is stupid because they need to win

If they spot start others to keep his innings in check - management is stupid because he's rusty

 

People suck.

[fatcowxlive]

No offense, but this reminds me of when people assuming the 6 man rotation was screwing up Estrada....when all along it's been the herniated disk in his back.

 

If they kept Sanchez in the rotation and he blows out his arm - management is stupid because they didn't protect him

If they shut down Sanchez - management is stupid because they need to win

If they put Sanchez in the bullpen - management is stupid because they need to win

If they spot start others to keep his innings in check - management is stupid because he's rusty

 

People suck.

 

Lol no offence taken, actually now that I think about it I do sound like all those other people. The only thing is I wouldn't have any other explanation on Sanchez. I don't think it's like the league is figuring him out, he's walking a lot of people and missing his spots. Is that a side effect of fatigue? Could be but like I said the spin looks the same and the velo's not dropped. Maybe it's just a bad stretch? He hasn't had one this season yet

[jerb]

 

Bob McCown

‏@FadooBobcat

 

Shapiro and Beeston in studio...together... today at 5 pm EDT!

[fatcowxlive]

 

Bob McCown

‏@FadooBobcat

 

Shapiro and Beeston in studio...together... today at 5 pm EDT!

 

This is why I still listen to Bobcat, lots of good pulls

[THANOS]

From my experience. Jumping up and down and yelling at one another to try harder is also ineffective. Baseball is a grind. You can't get too high or too low. I'm not even sure WTF you guy think it looks like when they are "trying to win".

 

How about a little energy in that dugout? The camera pan in there most days look like they're in a funeral parlor. The head down morose looks after every poor AB was never seen at any point last year, even when they were a .500 team. The "wait and see/it's early" mindset/comments from team members/coaches were never there last season but have been here all season long in 2016, even up to now. They never EXPECTED to just magically be better because of individual pedigrees, they did everything they could to force it with excellent ABs and low offensive K totals.

 

Some will laugh at the terms "team chemistry" or "tenacity" but they very much are a thing, and from most interviews I've heard, ranging from Stephen Brunt to Dan Shulman, that clubhouse is as solemn and quiet as it's been in years. Apparently, they came into camp "cocky" instead of "hungry" - Shulman.

[Brownie19]

How about a little energy in that dugout? The camera pan in there most days look like they're in a funeral parlor. The head down morose looks after every poor AB was never seen at any point last year, even when they were a .500 team. The "wait and see/it's early" mindset/comments from team members/coaches were never there last season but have been here all season long in 2016, even up to now. They never EXPECTED to just magically be better because of individual pedigrees, they did everything they could to force it with excellent ABs and low offensive K totals.

 

Some will laugh at the terms "team chemistry" or "tenacity" but they very much a thing, and from most interviews I've heard, ranging from Stephen Brunt to Dan Shulman, that clubhouse is as solemn and quiet as it's been in years. Apparently, they came into camp "cocky" instead of "hungry" - Shulman.

 

From what I recall - there were TONS of "wait and see/it's early" mindset/comments last year. I think you're miles off base in that respect. The team was thought to have been significantly better than a 0.500 team when they went out to get Tulo, Price, etc.

[GD]

Just a guess, but ever since they (management) screwed with the rotation, the pitchers were the first to show their displeasure, and now the rest of the team is also upset with management.

JD's blow up with Gibby just one example.

 

yes because that explains our offense

[Brownie19]

Lol no offence taken, actually now that I think about it I do sound like all those other people. The only thing is I wouldn't have any other explanation on Sanchez. I don't think it's like the league is figuring him out, he's walking a lot of people and missing his spots. Is that a side effect of fatigue? Could be but like I said the spin looks the same and the velo's not dropped. Maybe it's just a bad stretch? He hasn't had one this season yet

 

There's a strong possibility fatigue is affecting his command/control. I hope he's not, but he could be trying to throw harder (allowing him to maintain velocity and lose control) because he's fatigued. That's a common tendency for young pitchers - typically one that results in injury.

 

Could be rust too. Rust just sounds like an old cliché that guys like Buck/Tabby and Goose Gossage talk about.

[intentional wok]

yes because that explains our offense

 

People are looking for any magic answer that explains this inexplicable offensive implosion. People need to start realizing that it's just an inopportune cold spell (a very cold spell, tbh) that might be partially related to fatigue. It's not like some screw came off the cog. It just happens.

 

I mean it's still an utter choke in the making. I'm holding out hope it turns around. But it's not like there's some thread you look back on that unraveled everything.