Offseason Roster Thread

[Spanky__99]

I don't recall a single person here saying "Wow Sanchez is f***ing garbage." Actually this forum ranked him as our number one prospect in 2013.

 

Just a heads up, we're going into 16', brah?!

[Grant77]

He walked seven guys in 5.1 innings in the start before your sample. I wasn't born yesterday, Grant.

 

He walked only 3 and and 2 in the starts I didn't include. Use the whole season if you want, it makes literally no change in the discussion. Focusing on the periphery of my argument doesn't generate any meaningful baseball discussion.

 

The discussion I brought up is the merits of paying for an average starter when we have one in house. Lacava and others advocate signing 2 starters, presumably one mid-tier guy and another like Pelfrey. I'd rather put all of the money towards securing a better starter on a short term deal (ie. Kuma or Lackey vs Leake or Chen) and use the average starters that we already have in house, whether it be Sanchez, Osuna, Hutchison, or a combination. Do you care to actually offer thoughts on that philosophy??

[admin]

Just a heads up, we're going into 16', brah?!

 

PM me what it was again. I had to head out of town and forgot the exact deal we agreed up. What was the WAR over under?

[Daniel Labude]

Read a report that people around baseball think Jose Fernandez WILL be traded this offseason. What would we have to give up for him?

[Spanky__99]

Read a report that people around baseball think Jose Fernandez WILL be traded this offseason. What would we have to give up for him?

 

lol... everyone.

[admin]

Wat??

 

posted in the other thread.

[Laika]

I don't recall a single person here saying "Wow Sanchez is f***ing garbage." Actually this forum ranked him as our number one prospect in 2013.

 

- people were

- optimism on him really started dipping in 2013/2014 when his K rate fell as he rose the ladder and his BB rate didn't improve

- board opinions aren't directly relevant to the question of whether or not he was a s*** minor league starter. The stats are right there in the open.

- someone can be a s***** starter and still be a decent prospect

[o2cui2i]

- people were

- optimism on him really started dipping in 2013/2014 when his K rate fell as he rose the ladder and his BB rate didn't improve

- board opinions aren't directly relevant to the question of whether or not he was a s*** minor league starter. The stats are right there in the open.

- someone can be a s***** starter and still be a decent prospect

 

he's fine as a 7th inning guy, but I don't want him starting.

[Spanky__99]

posted in the other thread.

 

A pro-rated number is horseshit. Yet, I'll do it.

[admin]

- people were

- optimism on him really started dipping in 2013/2014 when his K rate fell as he rose the ladder and his BB rate didn't improve

- board opinions aren't directly relevant to the question of whether or not he was a s*** minor league starter. The stats are right there in the open.

- someone can be a s***** starter and still be a decent prospect

 

2014 maybe. But 2013 he was still highly regarded and considered a potential #1 or #2 starter. His walks were always a problem but everyone ignored that in previous years.

Like I said his walk rate was high, but other than that you can't say he was a s*** starter. He got rave reviews from scouts, 'experts', everyone. I don't know how you can sit there now that he's an average pitcher and pretend you saw it from day one.

[Grant77]

- people were

- optimism on him really started dipping in 2013/2014 when his K rate fell as he rose the ladder and his BB rate didn't improve

- board opinions aren't directly relevant to the question of whether or not he was a s*** minor league starter. The stats are right there in the open.

- someone can be a s***** starter and still be a decent prospect

 

I would say average is a much better description of his minor league stats than 's*****'. He's been several years younger than league average all of the way through as well.

[Laika]

I would say average is a much better description of his minor league stats than 's*****'. He's been several years younger than league average all of the way through as well.

 

s***** minor league starter relative to other prospects. Not necessarily s***** relative to all minor league starters.

[Laika]

I don't know how you can sit there now that he's an average pitcher and pretend you saw it from day one.

 

huh?

[admin]

huh?

 

Now that he's putting up mediocre numbers in the Majors, you're pretending like you weren't apart of the Sanchez bandwagon when he was our top prospect and saw it all along. His walks were high but everythign else was so good EVERYONE looked passed the walks thinking he could fix it.

[BTS]

Now that he's putting up mediocre numbers in the Majors, you're pretending like you weren't apart of the Sanchez bandwagon when he was our top prospect and saw it all along.

 

A lot of posters have been weary of Sanchez for a couple of years now.

[admin]

A lot of posters have been weary of Sanchez for a couple of years now.

 

33 of 38 people that took part in the 2013 midseason prospects ranked him #1. For a 's*****' starter in the minors, that's pretty good. And he was a 21 year old in AAA last year, I don't think anyone was expecting him to be lights out. It's silly for anyone to pretend like they knew this was coming. Not that I agree with it but even pre-2015 he was considered a top prospect by almost all outlets.

[Spanky__99]

huh?

 

Just ju1ced talking in absolutes, again.

[Spanky__99]

33 of 38 people that took part in the 2013 midseason prospects ranked him #1. For a 's*****' starter in the minors, that's pretty good. It's silly for anyone to pretend like they knew this was coming.

 

How about coming 14/15?

[Laika]

Now that he's putting up mediocre numbers in the Majors, you're pretending like you weren't apart of the Sanchez bandwagon when he was our top prospect and saw it all along. His walks were high but everythign else was so good EVERYONE looked passed the walks thinking he could fix it.

 

I'm not pretending anything.

 

I liked him a lot until the walk rate didn't improve in the upper minors and the K rate plummeted. At the time of the Dickey trade, him and Syndergaard were hard to separate.

 

When he didn't develop, my opinion shifted just like any rational person's would have and should have. The shine comes off of a prospect really fast when they reach A+/AA/AAA and their K/BB is that terrible.

[Grant77]

I'm still puzzled why the same posters who understand that a guy like Pelfrey can be an option for our rotation can't comprehend why Sanchez can do the same. His career K/BB and GB% are better, he's cheap, and he's just 23. It's not a huge stretch to believe that he is an average starter, especially on this turf and with a very good infield defense behind him. The list of pitchers that get 60% groundballs is very short; only 4 in the past 5 seasons.

[Spanky__99]

Now that he's putting up mediocre numbers in the Majors, you're pretending like you weren't apart of the Sanchez bandwagon when he was our top prospect and saw it all along. His walks were high but everythign else was so good EVERYONE looked passed the walks thinking he could fix it.

 

I've always had his back per se, but last year he should've been in Buffalo working on his secondary pitches and command.

[Spanky__99]

*control*

[Angrioter]

I'm not pretending anything.

 

I liked him a lot until the walk rate didn't improve in the upper minors and the K rate plummeted. At the time of the Dickey trade, him and Syndergaard were hard to separate.

 

When he didn't develop, my opinion shifted just like any rational person's would have and should have. The shine comes off of a prospect really fast when they reach A+/AA/AAA and their K/BB is that terrible.

Absolutely agree. He didn't develop as his talent level.

Nasty FB-CV combo, but lack of command, can't miss bats and he's getting old

[Laika]

I'm still puzzled why the same posters who understand that a guy like Pelfrey can be an option for our rotation can't comprehend why Sanchez can do the same. His career K/BB and GB% are better, he's cheap, and he's just 23. It's not a huge stretch to believe that he is an average starter, especially on this turf and with a very good infield defense behind him. The list of pitchers that get 60% groundballs is very short; only 4 in the past 5 seasons.

 

Just to be clear about my own opinions, I think Mike Pelfrey is terrible. I don't think he should even really be considered by Toronto and I agree that the talent gap between him and SP Sanchez isn't very wide.

 

So maybe you think they are both SP5 candidates and comparable.

 

I agree that they are comparable at least.

[admin]

I'm not pretending anything.

 

I liked him a lot until the walk rate didn't improve in the upper minors and the K rate plummeted. At the time of the Dickey trade, him and Syndergaard were hard to separate.

 

When he didn't develop, my opinion shifted just like any rational person's would have and should have. The shine comes off of a prospect really fast when they reach A+/AA/AAA and their K/BB is that terrible.

 

Well I don't see how you can like him for 3/4 of his minor league seasons then turn around and say he was a s***** starter.

I don't think there are too many pitchers in baseball who will be pitching in AAA at 21 and you can expect their K numbers to improve.

[Grant77]

Just to be clear about my own opinions, I think Mike Pelfrey is terrible. I don't think he should even really be considered by Toronto and I agree that the talent gap between him and SP Sanchez isn't very wide.

 

So maybe you think they are both SP5 candidates and comparable.

 

I agree that they are comparable at least.

 

I'd consider him for the right price, but only as depth after a top 4 of Stro, FA #2, Dickey, and Estrada. 30 starts of an ERA between 4 and 4.5 is what it is. I don't care if it comes from Mike Leake, Ian Kennedy, or Mike Pelfrey, as long as it is cheap. I'm honestly warming to the idea throwing 3-4 mil at Joe Blanton as a long guy. The fact that he made it to the Pirates on waivers shows than he isn't valued much, but he can't be worse than Scott Copeland.

[Spanky__99]

Just to be clear about my own opinions, I think Mike Pelfrey is terrible. I don't think he should even really be considered by Toronto and I agree that the talent gap between him and SP Sanchez isn't very wide.

 

So maybe you think they are both SP5 candidates and comparable.

 

I agree that they are comparable at least.

 

Big Pelf suxxxxx

[Spanky__99]

I think we're all on the same page with free agent stuff, Grant. I agree with cheaply filling the fifth spot and have long been a Blanton pusher. Rich Hill is another guy.

 

Rich Hill FTW!

[Laika]

Well I don't see how you can like him for 3/4 of his minor league seasons then turn around and say he was a s***** starter.

 

Then I'll make you see

 

- More than 50% of his MiLB innings came in his last 2 seasons (2013 and 2014), which were both very bad and not promising. So for the majority of the time he sucked.

- Scouting becomes less relevant as you climb the MiLB ladder; statistics become more relevant as you climb the MiLB ladder. In rookie ball you can almost throw the stats out the window and listen to the scouts; in full season ball and the upper minors statistics drive the projection bus.

- Sanchez is adored by scouts but once the statistics began to paint a more accurate pitcher of who he actually is, it became apparent that he was and is bad at being a starting pitcher. When the statistics began to really matter, he really sucked.

 

He was a s***** minor league starter, as far as prospects are considered, all things considered.

 

I don't want to say any more on the topic because I don't hate Aaron Sanchez and I hate talking in absolutes with sincerity. Anybody in the game can develop into a good player. He could still figure out how to start baseball games - he has some of the tools - it's just not likely, specifically because he's never really been good at it as a pro.

[Spanky__99]

Schooled^^^