Ryan Goins Can Stick?

[Caper]

People are calling Jays talk shows and the talking heads on the fan are talking about it too. They are all asking what happens next year when Travis comes back. My god it's not even a conversation. Travis still has much better potential then Goins. Goins, hopefully will be on the bench... and will still probably play a lot.

[MunenoriKawasakiMVP]

People are calling Jays talk shows and the talking heads on the fan are talking about it too. They are all asking what happens next year when Travis comes back. My god it's not even a conversation. Travis still has much better potential then Goins. Goins, hopefully will be on the bench... and will still probably play a lot.

Like it or like it not, Goins is easily a top 3 defender at shortstop in the game imo and is an average hitter FOR A MIDDLE INFIELDER. When Travis was injured, the Jays started magically winning. I agree that Travis on paper is superior but the Jays seems to be helped more by Goins than Travis.

[Jimcanuck]

Like it or like it not, Goins is easily a top 3 defender at shortstop in the game imo and is an average hitter FOR A MIDDLE INFIELDER. When Travis was injured, the Jays started magically winning. I agree that Travis on paper is superior but the Jays seems to be helped more by Goins than Travis.

 

c'mon man, jays started winning at a good clip when Tulo, Price, Lowe, Hawkins arrived... Goins has played well lately but Travis is superior overall

[baubau]

Like it or like it not, Goins is easily a top 3 defender at shortstop in the game imo and is an average hitter FOR A MIDDLE INFIELDER. When Travis was injured, the Jays started magically winning. I agree that Travis on paper is superior but the Jays seems to be helped more by Goins than Travis.

 

1. Goins is not "easily" a top 3 defender at shortstop. Hechavarria, Simmons, Escobar and Crawford are all better. You can argue that he isn't even better than Tulo.

2. When Travis got injured the team "magically" got Tulo replacing Reyes, added Revere replacing Colabello in the OF, added David Price, added Sanchez, Lowe and Hawkins in the pen. A player going down doesn't "magically" make a team have a .800 winning %. It is a team game.

3. On paper and in real life Travis has been better. Travis has had 2.3 WAR, 136 wRC+ and Goins is 1.5 WAR, 88 wRC+ in more games. Goins is the better defender, but Travis providers better overall value and is younger.

 

I am not going to break down the stats further. You seem like you've got your mind set on this and regardless of what I type chances are you won't read it or care. So to save a long pointless debate: we'll agree to disagree.

[gruber92]

As of right now, Goins is a better starting middle infield option for over half the teams in the NL. No matter what happens with the Jays, Goins will be employed in the MLB for the next 8-10 years (on a 25 man roster). AA would be foolish to include him in any trades, as he's a valuable piece in spelling Tulo and Travis and providing overall solid depth. Travis' offensive talent and potential overrides the defensive upgrade Goins provides, although if Goins continues to improve offensively, the difference will squeeze. It's a good problem to have if that does happen.

[gruber92]

c'mon man, jays started winning at a good clip when Tulo, Price, Lowe, Hawkins arrived... Goins has played well lately but Travis is superior overall

 

No, he's right. The Jays have a better record with Goins vs Travis way before the trades.

[Jimcanuck]

No, he's right. The Jays have a better record with Goins vs Travis way before the trades.

 

ok gruber... who is the better 2nd baseman overall, Goins or Travis

[JoeyBats2010]

It's baffling to me how so many people are brushing off travis' all star calibre play before he got hurt. Oh wait that's right these same people weren't watching before the trade deadline bandwagon rolled out

[BigCecil]

Goins is the best defensive 2nd baseman in bluejays history.

 

Hill was a good 2B

 

I watched Alomar play and I agree - Goins is as good or better defensively. Alomar was flashier. And a much better hitter. But in terms of purely making outs? Goins is about as good as it gets.

 

Garcia, Hill, Alomar and Orlando Hudson and Goins is THE BEST defensive 2B ever?

 

I have to think about that for awhile. Its a very big statement for Goins.

[BigCecil]

It's baffling to me how so many people are brushing off travis' all star calibre play before he got hurt. Oh wait that's right these same people weren't watching before the trade deadline bandwagon rolled out

 

That's not the case. I just think a lot of people are blown away pleasantly surprised at how well Goins has filled in.

 

I think the vast majority on this Board say Travis > Goins.

[Hipfan]

I watched Alomar play and I agree - Goins is as good or better defensively. Alomar was flashier. And a much better hitter. But in terms of purely making outs? Goins is about as good as it gets.

 

Well I agree that Goins is a great defender, and he definitely reminds me at times of Alomar, he is in no way better than Robbie. Alomar is in the HOF in large part for his defence (while obviously being a great hitter, too); he was incredible and there's no way I buy the argument that Goins is at the same level. Whoever thinks that either forgot how good Robbie was or never saw him play.

[Caper]

Well I agree that Goins is a great defender, and he definitely reminds me at times of Alomar, he is in no way better than Robbie. Alomar is in the HOF in large part for his defence (while obviously being a great hitter, too); he was incredible and there's no way I buy the argument that Goins is at the same level. Whoever thinks that either forgot how good Robbie was or never saw him play.

 

He is a better defender.... He's obviously not near the same level of ball player.

[MunenoriKawasakiMVP]

Okay nobody is understanding what am I saying. Sure Travis is better than Goins stat wise, but this team benefits more from a beast defense up the middle than a another beast bat in the lineup. And Goins hitting isn't all that bad even if Travis is way superior. I know some of the guys wouldn't agree with me but we should try to flip Travis for a young, controllable starting pitcher such as Tyson Ross, Carlos Carrasco, etc.

[Hipfan]

He is a better defender.... He's obviously not near the same level of ball player.

 

I'll take Alomar's D over Goins; did you see Alomar play?

[RealAccountant]

I'll take Alomar's D over Goins; did you see Alomar play?

 

Yes I agree Goins over Alomar is a stretch especially considering the longetivity of Alomars greatness. Doesn't Alomar hold the record for consecutive games without an error

[RealAccountant]

Looked it up Alomar went 104 games without an error

[nextyear]

As of right now, Goins is a better starting middle infield option for over half the teams in the NL. No matter what happens with the Jays, Goins will be employed in the MLB for the next 8-10 years (on a 25 man roster). AA would be foolish to include him in any trades, as he's a valuable piece in spelling Tulo and Travis and providing overall solid depth. Travis' offensive talent and potential overrides the defensive upgrade Goins provides, although if Goins continues to improve offensively, the difference will squeeze. It's a good problem to have if that does happen.

 

 

I think this is a good comment, it is basically how I feel. Devon Travis is a natural hitter whereas Goins has to work at it. Goins has developed such a bad image offensively from 2013, 2014 and the first part of 2015 that it would take one full season of 100 wRC+ to convince people that he can hit consistently.

 

As you stated, it's will be a good problem to have if Goins continues to improve offensively, as to whether to keep him on the bench next year (especially if the Blue Jays go deep into the playoffs with Goins at 2nd base). One thing that I wonder is whether Goins can handle the pressure of people expecting him to perform offensively at the level that he has since July 1st?

 

In any case, I am a big Goins fan so hopefully he will continue to perform well offensively and will get into at least a hundred games next year as a Blue Jay.

 

Baseball: the best reality TV out there, with a 150 year history

Edited September 7, 2015 by nextyear

[BigCecil]

Goins is the best defensive 2nd baseman in bluejays history.

 

Was just looking at all time D WAR on Baseball Reference and Orlando Hudson and Hill have posted some of the top D WARS in Jays history.

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/TOR/leaders_bat.shtml

 

He is very good, I don't think we can say this about Goins just yet.

[TBJESE]

It's baffling to me how so many people are brushing off travis' all star calibre play before he got hurt. Oh wait that's right these same people weren't watching before the trade deadline bandwagon rolled out

 

Or maybe they've been watching for decades and they understand that a come-from-nowhere rookie who put up 150 great at-bats then got injured is extremely unreliable.

 

Even healthy Travis would be a "that's excellent, prove it's not a fluke" situation. Chronic injury Travis is a whole new level of uncertainty.

[Caper]

Was just looking at all time D WAR on Baseball Reference and Orlando Hudson and Hill have posted some of the top D WARS in Jays history.

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/TOR/leaders_bat.shtml

 

He is very good, I don't think we can say this about Goins just yet.

 

 

 

Yeah... you could be right.

[Sorrow]

I'd still argue that Hudson is the best defensive second basemen that's played in Toronto.

 

It should also be no argument that Travis should be starting over Goins as long as Travis is healthy.

[Brownie19]

Or maybe they've been watching for decades and they understand that a come-from-nowhere rookie who put up 150 great at-bats then got injured is extremely unreliable.

 

Even healthy Travis would be a "that's excellent, prove it's not a fluke" situation. Chronic injury Travis is a whole new level of uncertainty.

 

+1. I'm certainly not sold that Travis is a 130 wRC+ hitter. We traded Gose to get him. I like him and I'm rooting for him, but he still has a lot to prove.

[Brownie19]

Was just looking at all time D WAR on Baseball Reference and Orlando Hudson and Hill have posted some of the top D WARS in Jays history.

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/TOR/leaders_bat.shtml

 

He is very good, I don't think we can say this about Goins just yet.

 

Defensive metrics do not agree with Alomar being phenomenal defensively. It's really hard to compare then to now, but I do think a lot of people's memories have faded over time.

 

Goins is at 1.5 dWAR this year in about 800 innings of work. Highest for a 2nd baseman in team history is Hudson in 2004 with a 2.8 dWAR over 1125 innings. Prorate Goins to those innings and he finishes with 2.1. O-Dogg wins.

[EMK19]

Right now I want Travis back if anything just so that Pennington gets pushed back in the depth chart... He's been so horrendous with the bat...

[Spanky99]

Hot month...he suxxxxxx

 

An efficient 25th guy.

[Boxcar]

Was just looking at all time D WAR on Baseball Reference and Orlando Hudson and Hill have posted some of the top D WARS in Jays history.

 

http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/TOR/leaders_bat.shtml

 

He is very good, I don't think we can say this about Goins just yet.

 

IIRC, Cesar Izturis also played some 2B for us back in the day.

[Boxcar]

Or maybe they've been watching for decades and they understand that a come-from-nowhere rookie who put up 150 great at-bats then got injured is extremely unreliable.

 

Even healthy Travis would be a "that's excellent, prove it's not a fluke" situation. Chronic injury Travis is a whole new level of uncertainty.

 

As opposed to a long time minor leaguer who has never hit well putting up a decent month or 2 that still isn't better than Travis' line for the year. Yup, makes sense.

[Stangstag]

I think people are going a bit overboard with giving Travis the "chronic injury" tag. The dude hurt his shoulder and then came back too early and re-agrivated the injury. I don't think the shoulder thing will bother him at all next year.

[Sammy225]

I think people are going a bit overboard with giving Travis the "chronic injury" tag. The dude hurt his shoulder and then came back too early and re-agrivated the injury. I don't think the shoulder thing will bother him at all next year.

 

Dudes f***ed might as well bury him 6ft under lol

[Laika]

Devon Travis was worth almost twice as much WAR as Ryan Goins this year, in 2/3 of the playing time. There's a reasonable chance that if Travis doesn't get hurt he's second on the whole team in fWAR right now.