Marcus Stroman Recovery Thread

[Zaun of the Dead]

estrada will be going to the bullpen. and personally I think that is the right move.

[tpurewal97]

Why won't they go with a 6 man rotation

[Krylian]

Why won't they go with a 6 man rotation

 

While I'm not an advocate of that generally speaking, that might not be a bad compromise for maybe a couple of trips through the rotation. Gives the pitchers an extra day off late in the season, gets stroman in to really see if he's ready, and doesn't remove anyone from the rotation that doesn't deserve to be removed as they're all doing a bang up job right now.

[ValiantJaysFan]

Nice problem to have but like Zaun said, it wouldn't be fair to pull someone out of the rotation when everyone is pitching well. Maybe he starts in place of Hutch on the road? Maybe he makes spot starts? I dunno. Glad I don't make those decisions.

 

It was funny watching his leave the field on the highlights last night though...he's so short and has such a baby face, he legit looks like he's 11 years old lol.

[fireballW]

Because Price needs to go every five days and it's hard to manage a rotation with pitchers on different schedules.

 

Estrada should go to the pen.

 

Pretty risky to go with Stroman over Estrada, who despite his previous roles with our team has been a fairly decent pitcher over a number of years. It would probably be the best decision for politics though, as Estrada will probably be gone after this year and Hutch will still be here (and neither would probably start in the playoffs anyway). There have been lots of times I've gone with that stats over what I see, but I really think people need to have their heads buried deep in the sand if they can't see Hutch has been elevating pitches and throwing very hittable stuff most of the year. He looked better for a couple starts but his last start looked not great to me despite his results.

 

Either way it is a tough decision. With Stroman, who people were comparing his pitches to Halladay, Pedro etc... pretty hard to not go with him but then everyone has been lights out and Stroman is a 24 year old with only about 20 starts. Do we use 3 or 4 pitchers in the playoffs. I would not want to be the manager that has to tell MB that he's being skipped in the playoffs, since it seems impossible not to have a ton of respect for the guy and with how well he's pitched all year.

[RealAccountant]

Because Price needs to go every five days and it's hard to manage a rotation with pitchers on different schedules.

 

Estrada should go to the pen.

 

Estrada has arguably been the Jays best pitcher

 

Hutch to the pen

 

Actual results matter

[Mac Outlaw]

Estrada should go to the pen? Why?

 

For being the 2nd best pitcher on the staff?

 

Because of XFIP? Because XFIP shortchanges pitchers who have great changeups?

[KingKat]

XFIP shortchanges pitchers who have great changeups?

 

Got anything to back that up?

[Governator]

Estrada has arguably been the Jays best pitcher

 

Hutch to the pen

 

Actual results matter

 

Well if you're going to go by results Hutch's 13-2 is pretty dazzling. If you're going to go by ERA which is just a stat in itself why not look at other stats that are more meaningful?

[Followthelight]

estrada will be going to the bullpen. and personally I think that is the right move.

 

No he won't, Hutch will. Not saying I agree with that but the writing is on the wall for hutch when they sent him down during the road trip.

[Followthelight]

Well if you're going to go by results Hutch's 13-2 is pretty dazzling. If you're going to go by ERA which is just a stat in itself why not look at other stats that are more meaningful?

 

Stats are great but at times people use them as gospel too much, they never tell the whole story and Hutch is a perfect example....FIP, XFIP do not account for a pitcher missing his spots constantly and leaving hittable pitches down the pipe. His slider flattens out, and hitters stop chasing it and sit dead red fastball. When he is off this is what he does, no command and leaves hittable pitches down the middle of the plate. If you ever want to see why Stats do not always give a totally accurate picture, just look at Hutch in 2015. He is wildly inconsistent because he throws across his body and loses his release point. Stats won't show this.

 

This is why at times he looks dominant, and other starts he gives up 5-6 runs in 3 innings.

Edited September 3, 2015 by Followthelight

[SpeedyGose]

We are all in this season, if Stroman does not join the rotation it's a massive fail. Who cares about feelings and egos, move Estrada to the pen and put Stroman, the much better pitcher into the rotation

[LGBJ29]

Hard to take Estrada out when he's pitched this well for an a good portion of the season. With Buehrle sore and needing extra rest often I wonder if they can piggy back him with hutch, or do something like home/away split with those 2

[burlingtonbandit]

anyone post? http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=27387

[Dr. Dinger]

We are all in this season, if Stroman does not join the rotation it's a massive fail. Who cares about feelings and egos, move Estrada to the pen and put Stroman, the much better pitcher into the rotation

 

Bump anyone but Price for all I give a s***; Stroman is our 2nd best pitcher and must be in the rotation accordingly. This is no time for pussy-footing.

[43211234]

anyone post? http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=27387

Player Profile

Marcus Stroman

by Nick Shlain

 

Player Background

 

After being selected by the Washington Nationals in the 18th round of 2009 draft out of high school, Stroman opted to go college at Duke University, where he started as a two-way player and starred on the mound. In his freshman season, Stroman started 44 games at second base and hit .265 while making 17 appearances at pitcher, including five starts. He was named ACC Freshman of the Year. Stroman went to the Cape Cod League that summer and was named an all-star after he didn’t allow a run in his first 21 innings.

He continued to play second base as a sophomore, but it was clear that his future would be on the mound as he led the team with 90 strikeouts in 64 1/3 innings. Stroman’s 3.27 career ERA at Duke is the second-lowest in school history in the aluminum-bat era (since 1974) and the sixth-lowest of all time. In 2011, he was a member of the USA Baseball Collegiate National Team, serving as the team’s closer. Stroman didn’t allow a hit in 8 1/3 innings over seven scoreless appearances. He struck out 17 of the 27 batters he faced and walked one. The next year he was named to the All-ACC First Team as he led all NCAA pitchers in strikeouts with 136 in 98 innings.

The Toronto Blue Jays picked him 22nd overall in the 2012 draft, making him Duke’s first first-round pick. Stroman signed quickly for $1.8 million and had already reached Double-A working as a reliever just months after signing when he tested positive for a stimulant and was suspended for 50 games, ending his season and costing him the first month of 2013.

He began 2013 back at Double-A New Hampshire, but this time as a starter. In 20 starts, he had a 3.30 ERA, 1.12 WHIP, and 129-to-27 K:BB ratio. Stroman went to the Arizona Fall League, where he dazzled with a 0.94 WHIP and 13 strikeouts in 11 2/3 innings. While there had been some debate about where Stroman’s future would ultimately lie, possibly stemming from his diminutive 5-foot-8 frame, his deep repertoire of pitches would be wasted in the bullpen. Stroman has a starter’s arsenal and once he used it to breeze by the Eastern League in his second pro season, the debate about his future role was over. He entered 2014 as the no. 27 prospect in baseball, based on our rankings.

He took the Stro Show to the majors, initially coming out of the bullpen with five relief appearances and shaky results before joining the rotation. Almost immediately, Stroman became the Blue Jays’ best starter. As a starter, his ERA was 3.29 and he had a 20 percent strikeout clip and 5.5 percent walk rate.

Perhaps most impressive was the way Stroman’s pitch mix evolved as the season went along, as he began heavily featuring his sinker, which has been compared to Roy Halladay’s. He relied on his sinker heavily over the last two months of the season, throwing it 31 percent of the time in August and 44 percent of the time in September, according to Brooks Baseball. As his sinker usage increased, so too did his ground-ball rate, which was 48 percent in the first half but went up to 58 percent over the last two months. Only Dallas Keuchel had a higher ground-ball percentage in 2014.

“I found a sinker, I found a completely new pitch and it did wonders for me,” Stroman said. “I just toyed around with grips. At the All-Star break last year I found that grip and my groundball percentage went way up and it allowed me to go deeper into games. I had never thrown a complete game in my life before the big leagues, before that pitch.”

While Stroman has six pitches he can throw and many of them are comparable to other ace’s offerings, his sinker is in his own estimation his most important pitch. If he continues to pound sinkers once he’s back in the major leagues and those ground -all gains hold, then he’ll have upside beyond his preseason PECOTA projection of 3.35 ERA and 1.19 WHIP, which came along with a projected 48 percent ground-ball pace.

What’s Happened So Far in 2015

 

Stroman and the Blue Jays were dealt a nearly cataclysmic blow in spring training, when he tore his ACL during a fielding drill where the pitcher pulled up and heard his knee pop. Stroman wasn’t down for long, though, after undergoing knee surgery performed by Dr. James Andrews on March 19th. Still a semester short of graduating from Duke, the 24-year-old took the opportunity to finish his degree at Duke while simultaneously doing two-a-day rehabilitation workouts six times a week on his way to beating the odds and returning to pitch on a professional mound in September. Stroman has also spent a lot of time working on his changeup while rehabbing and says the pitch feels really good. An improved changeup could be another positive to take from the time he’s had off, which has almost been a blessing in disguise.

Stroman took the mound just before 7:05 p.m. at Lansing Cooley Law School Stadium and warmed up to “Miss Me,” a track off Drake’s second album Thank Me Later. He worked especially quickly in the first inning, excitement possibly stemming from the layoff or maybe Drizzy’s “World Series attitude, champagne bottle life” line was still ringing in his ears. He joked after the game that he was pitching like Mark Buehrle in the first inning. In his first professional start in nearly a year, Stroman said his return to the mound felt “natural.” He looked great. Stroman’s fastball sat 93-94 mph in the first inning and the rest of the outing. In total, he went 4 2/3 innings while allowing no hits and one walk while striking out seven. He threw 69 pitches with 44 strikes. He broke off a few hellacious sliders before the night was over and he was simply no match for the Great Lakes Loons, the Dodgers’ Low-A Midwest League affiliate. Stroman seemingly could have pitched all night without allowing a hit.

What to Expect the Rest of 2015

 

Stroman is set for one more rehab start with Triple-A Buffalo on Monday where he’ll throw 85-90 pitches before he joins the Jays’ active roster. That would line him up for a start in next weekend’s series against the Yankees in the Bronx, where he was originally slated to open the season as the Jays Opening Day starter before he got hurt. While many have questioned Stroman throughout his career for a litany of reasons—including his height, which he likes to remind the doubters hasn’t been an issue with the hashtag #HDMH for Heart Doesn’t Measure Heart—he has no doubt that he’s ready to return to the majors. “I’ve been throwing through this whole process too because I was throwing when I couldn’t walk,” he said. “My arm’s ready and my knee’s ready.”

“I’m more motivated and hungry now than I’ve ever been.”

6ix god help us all.

The Great Beyond

 

Assuming Stroman makes it back to the majors healthy and in the rotation, the Blue Jays are going to the World Series. I mean, how is a team with David Price, Stroman, and that lineup not going to the World Series? I guess we’ll see. While how Stroman does the rest of this season will be interesting for a number of reasons, his potential future looks about as good as anyone’s. He made the most out of what was almost a lost summer, proving once again that there’s something really special about this diminutive right-hander.

[Brownie19]

Well if you're going to go by results Hutch's 13-2 is pretty dazzling. If you're going to go by ERA which is just a stat in itself why not look at other stats that are more meaningful?

 

Exactly....which "actual result" is more meaningful RA? Wins or ERA?

[Dr. Dinger]

anyone post? http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=27387

 

Player Profile

 

Marcus Stroman

 

by Nick Shlain

Player Background

After being selected by the Washington Nationals in the 18^th round of 2009 draft out of high school, Stroman opted to go college at Duke University, where he started as a two-way player and starred on the mound. In his freshman season, Stroman started 44 games at second base and hit .265 while making 17 appearances at pitcher, including five starts. He was named ACC Freshman of the Year. Stroman went to the Cape Cod League that summer and was named an all-star after he didn’t allow a run in his first 21 innings.

He continued to play second base as a sophomore, but it was clear that his future would be on the mound as he led the team with 90 strikeouts in 64 1/3 innings. Stroman’s 3.27 career ERA at Duke is the second-lowest in school history in the aluminum-bat era (since 1974) and the sixth-lowest of all time. In 2011, he was a member of the USA Baseball Collegiate National Team, serving as the team’s closer. Stroman didn’t allow a hit in 8 1/3 innings over seven scoreless appearances. He struck out 17 of the 27 batters he faced and walked one. The next year he was named to the All-ACC First Team as he led all NCAA pitchers in strikeouts with 136 in 98 innings.

 

The Toronto Blue Jays picked him 22^nd overall in the 2012 draft, making him Duke’s first first-round pick. Stroman signed quickly for $1.8 million and had already reached Double-A working as a reliever just months after signing when he tested positive for a stimulant and was suspended for 50 games, ending his season and costing him the first month of 2013.

He began 2013 back at Double-A New Hampshire, but this time as a starter. In 20 starts, he had a 3.30 ERA, 1.12 WHIP, and 129-to-27 K:BB ratio. Stroman went to the Arizona Fall League, where he dazzled with a 0.94 WHIP and 13 strikeouts in 11 2/3 innings. While there had been some debate about where Stroman’s future would ultimately lie, possibly stemming from his diminutive 5-foot-8 frame, his deep repertoire of pitches would be wasted in the bullpen. Stroman has a starter’s arsenal and once he used it to breeze by the Eastern League in his second pro season, the debate about his future role was over. He entered 2014 as the no. 27 prospect in baseball, based on our rankings.

 

He took the Stro Show to the majors, initially coming out of the bullpen with five relief appearances and shaky results before joining the rotation. Almost immediately, Stroman became the Blue Jays’ best starter. As a starter, his ERA was 3.29 and he had a 20 percent strikeout clip and 5.5 percent walk rate.

 

Perhaps most impressive was the way Stroman’s pitch mix evolved as the season went along, as he began heavily featuring his sinker, which has been compared to Roy Halladay’s. He relied on his sinker heavily over the last two months of the season, throwing it 31 percent of the time in August and 44 percent of the time in September, according to Brooks Baseball. As his sinker usage increased, so too did his ground-ball rate, which was 48 percent in the first half but went up to 58 percent over the last two months. Only Dallas Keuchel had a higher ground-ball percentage in 2014.

 

“I found a sinker, I found a completely new pitch and it did wonders for me,” Stroman said. “I just toyed around with grips. At the All-Star break last year I found that grip and my groundball percentage went way up and it allowed me to go deeper into games. I had never thrown a complete game in my life before the big leagues, before that pitch.”

While Stroman has six pitches he can throw and many of them are comparable to other ace’s offerings, his sinker is in his own estimation his most important pitch. If he continues to pound sinkers once he’s back in the major leagues and those ground -all gains hold, then he’ll have upside beyond his preseason PECOTA projection of 3.35 ERA and 1.19 WHIP, which came along with a projected 48 percent ground-ball pace.

 

What’s Happened So Far in 2015

Stroman and the Blue Jays were dealt a nearly cataclysmic blow in spring training, when he tore his ACL during a fielding drill where the pitcher pulled up and heard his knee pop. Stroman wasn’t down for long, though, after undergoing knee surgery performed by Dr. James Andrews on March 19th. Still a semester short of graduating from Duke, the 24-year-old took the opportunity to finish his degree at Duke while simultaneously doing two-a-day rehabilitation workouts six times a week on his way to beating the odds and returning to pitch on a professional mound in September. Stroman has also spent a lot of time working on his changeup while rehabbing and says the pitch feels really good. An improved changeup could be another positive to take from the time he’s had off, which has almost been a blessing in disguise.

 

Stroman took the mound just before 7:05 p.m. at Lansing Cooley Law School Stadium and warmed up to “Miss Me,” a track off Drake’s second album Thank Me Later. He worked especially quickly in the first inning, excitement possibly stemming from the layoff or maybe Drizzy’s “World Series attitude, champagne bottle life” line was still ringing in his ears. He joked after the game that he was pitching like Mark Buehrle in the first inning. In his first professional start in nearly a year, Stroman said his return to the mound felt “natural.” He looked great. Stroman’s fastball sat 93-94 mph in the first inning and the rest of the outing. In total, he went 4 2/3 innings while allowing no hits and one walk while striking out seven. He threw 69 pitches with 44 strikes. He broke off a few hellacious sliders before the night was over and he was simply no match for the Great Lakes Loons, the Dodgers’ Low-A Midwest League affiliate. Stroman seemingly could have pitched all night without allowing a hit.

 

What to Expect the Rest of 2015

 

Stroman is set for one more rehab start with Triple-A Buffalo on Monday where he’ll throw 85-90 pitches before he joins the Jays’ active roster. That would line him up for a start in next weekend’s series against the Yankees in the Bronx, where he was originally slated to open the season as the Jays Opening Day starter before he got hurt. While many have questioned Stroman throughout his career for a litany of reasons—including his height, which he likes to remind the doubters hasn’t been an issue with the hashtag #HDMH for Heart Doesn’t Measure Heart—he has no doubt that he’s ready to return to the majors. “I’ve been throwing through this whole process too because I was throwing when I couldn’t walk,” he said. “My arm’s ready and my knee’s ready.”

 

“I’m more motivated and hungry now than I’ve ever been.”

 

6ix god help us all.

 

The Great Beyond

Assuming Stroman makes it back to the majors healthy and in the rotation, the Blue Jays are going to the World Series. I mean, how is a team with David Price, Stroman, and that lineup not going to the World Series? I guess we’ll see. While how Stroman does the rest of this season will be interesting for a number of reasons, his potential future looks about as good as anyone’s. He made the most out of what was almost a lost summer, proving once again that there’s something really special about this diminutive right-hander.

[JuniorFelix]

estrada will be going to the bullpen. and personally I think that is the right move.

What has Estrada done to deserve going to the pen? I see it playing out that one of the current 5 not named Price, Buehrle, or Dickey that is the first to falter will lose their spot.

[SpeedyGose]

Bump anyone but Price for all I give a s***; Stroman is our 2nd best pitcher and must be in the rotation accordingly. This is no time for pussy-footing.

 

100%. Especially when almost all of them could be gone in the offseason. Also, further proof Zaun is a complete moron. Saying Stroman should be in mop up duty until he proves he can face MLB hitters. Great way to treat your future ace, bro

[burlingtonbandit]

That article was so great I just read it twice and didn't give a f***. Thanks for posting guys.

[KingKat]

What has Estrada done to deserve going to the pen? I see it playing out that one of the current 5 not named Price, Buehrle, or Dickey that is the first to falter will lose their spot.

 

It's not about "deserve". He's done fine in his role but if Stroman pitches like Stroman, he's the team's second best starter after Price. SOMEONE will have to go. It will likely either be Estrada or Hutch and I don't see why anyone would make a big deal about either. That's just the way the ball bounces. If the Jays are in a position where they have enough pitching that they have to push someone who doesn't necessarily deserve to be bumped from the rotation, that's a good thing.

[Sammy225]

Bump anyone but Price for all I give a s***; Stroman is our 2nd best pitcher and must be in the rotation accordingly. This is no time for pussy-footing.

 

Dibs on Greg Zaun saying:

 

" You don't mess with Success you don't bring someone in and not know what you are getting to disrupt the excellent pitching they have been getting"

 

FTW lol

[Governator]

Stats are great but at times people use them as gospel too much, they never tell the whole story and Hutch is a perfect example....FIP, XFIP do not account for a pitcher missing his spots constantly and leaving hittable pitches down the pipe. His slider flattens out, and hitters stop chasing it and sit dead red fastball. When he is off this is what he does, no command and leaves hittable pitches down the middle of the plate. If you ever want to see why Stats do not always give a totally accurate picture, just look at Hutch in 2015. He is wildly inconsistent because he throws across his body and loses his release point. Stats won't show this.

 

This is why at times he looks dominant, and other starts he gives up 5-6 runs in 3 innings.

 

 

That doesn't mean Hutch is less of a pitcher than Estrada who's had a ton of luck go his way. Estrada sports a .229 BABIP... His HR/FB is at a career low while his FB% is the highest it's been in 5 years. Statistically it's made for great results but not when you think about an inevitable regression. He could get tattooed anytime and Stroman replacing him just seems like the right option. Estrada is comfortable out of the pen, we don't know what Hutch would bring and he's a great back up arm to use as a spot starter or long man.

[Sammy225]

It's not about "deserve". He's done fine in his role but if Stroman pitches like Stroman, he's the team's second best starter after Price. SOMEONE will have to go. It will likely either be Estrada or Hutch and I don't see why anyone would make a big deal about either. That's just the way the ball bounces. If the Jays are in a position where they have enough pitching that they have to push someone who doesn't necessarily deserve to be bumped from the rotation, that's a good thing.

 

Sadly it will likely be Hutch to go.... I can't see them looking past the ERA and saying he is the weak link... It will be a sad day. Hopefully he lights it up on friday.

[Dr. Dinger]

Dibs on Greg Zaun saying:

 

" You don't mess with Success you don't bring someone in and not know what you are getting to disrupt the excellent pitching they have been getting"

 

FTW lol

 

His argument for keeping Hutch in the rotation was as rambling and flimsy as George Costanza's argument for a breakup.

[JuniorFelix]

It's not about "deserve". He's done fine in his role but if Stroman pitches like Stroman, he's the team's second best starter after Price. SOMEONE will have to go. It will likely either be Estrada or Hutch and I don't see why anyone would make a big deal about either. That's just the way the ball bounces. If the Jays are in a position where they have enough pitching that they have to push someone who doesn't necessarily deserve to be bumped from the rotation, that's a good thing.

I agree that someone will move, and I am all for that. I am not sure it should be Estrada though. But like you, having Stroman take over for either him or Hutch is a positive.

 

One thing to consider is who out of Hutch and Estrada would you rather see coming out of the pen? For me, it is Hutch and by a large margin. I think his stuff would play better. He has the type of arm that could be dominant out of the pen.

 

We are really in a great position either way. I can't believe how this season is playing out...It's really hard to fathom that all this is actually happening lol.

[Dr. Dinger]

Sadly it will likely be Hutch to go.... I can't see them looking past the ERA and saying he is the weak link... It will be a sad day. Hopefully he lights it up on friday.

 

This decision doesn't have to be made yet, we can basically see two starts each from Hutch and Estrada before it needs to be made.

[youngtea]

I think you guys are reading to much into his start at A baseball. Let's see how he does against better bats and than decide if he is ready.

[JuniorFelix]

That article was so great I just read it twice and didn't give a f***. Thanks for posting guys.

 

Great article indeed. BUT, in the article it says "#HDMH for Heart Doesn’t Measure Heart"....isn't it "Height doesn't measure Heart"?