Extensions for Hutchison and Stroman?

[BTS]

Conversely, you can look at Tim Lincecum. The Giants went year to year with him and they ended up giving him a ton of money in arbitration but by the time the years of control were up, he wasn't the same pitcher anymore and he wasn't commanding the kind of money it would have cost to lock him up earlier. There's something to be said for paying more in the short term to avoid the risk of a long term contract. This looks like the route the Jays are taking with Lawrie, for one, and as Moogy pointed out, his troubles staying on the field have vindicated the patient approach the Jays have taken. A couple of years ago, there were some fans just screaming for the team to lock Lawrie up. If that had happened, we would probably be asking ourselves today if it was really worth it because frankly he hasn't done a whole lot in recent years to justify an extension.

 

Still not really sure why people want to extend Lawrie. League average bats that draw a lot of their value from defense don't exactly clean up via arb/free agency. Combine that with his injury history and year-to-year seems to be the way to go.

[KingKat]

I don't remember TwistedLogic from the old board much less what he might have said about Romero but I don't think it's that far-fetched that he would have been against the Romero extension. Question marks about Romero go back to well before the extension. He had a pretty s***** minor league career and he only seemed to figure things out once he worked with Arnsberg. He turned it aroung pretty dramatically. I could understand why someone would have been skeptical of his turnaround. I believed in it myself mostly for the simple reason that I wanted to believe it. His turnaround was a great story but there were skeptics. Keith Law for one always spoke poorly of Romero. I don't think it's crazy to think TwistedLogic might have subsribed to Law's point of view.

[KingKat]

Still not really sure why people want to extend Lawrie. League average bats that draw a lot of their value from defense don't exactly clean up via arb/free agency. Combine that with his injury history and year-to-year seems to be the way to go.

 

Wait... people STILL want to extend him? I would have thought the last few season would have put some rain on that parade.

[Terminator]

How can anyone say yes/no on extending a player? Shouldn't the dollar amount play a factor?

 

Escobar, he who is fap material for the Rays fanboys of the board, is a guy who gets most of his value from defense and not so much his bat (much like Lawrie) yet everyone gushes over the extensions he has signed over the years.

 

AA has done very well in his extensions if I recall correctly so I wouldn't be opposed to extending Lawrie if the price is right.

[Atothe]

Wait... people STILL want to extend him? I would have thought the last few season would have put some rain on that parade.

 

Actually giving him an extension might not a bad idea. He's injury prone so you can ask for steep discount

[KingKat]

Actually giving him an extension might not a bad idea. He's injury prone so you can ask for steep discount

 

Perhaps... But I feel like you'd have to overpay. Otherwise, Lawrie and his agent will just turn around and hope he has a healthy season and raises his value. I don't think there would be a discount and frankly, it would have to be a hell of a discount to override concerns about him staying on the field. He'd have to be paid like a part time player that he essentially is and I can't see him and his agent accepting that.

[TheHurl]

Still not really sure why people want to extend Lawrie. League average bats that draw a lot of their value from defense don't exactly clean up via arb/free agency. Combine that with his injury history and year-to-year seems to be the way to go.

 

Because you lock him up while he's a league average bat and injured. Unfortunately he's also got a top 5 3B mind. He turns down all team friendly deals at his current level of pay IMO. However that was a year ago. Now he's arbitration ready and we all know that his defense will barely change that value in those hearings. So he's not going to jump up that much. Just play it year by year or lock him up 2 or 3 now if you don't want to bother meeting with him other than his disciplinary meetings.

[burlingtonbandit]

Izturis deal was a flop.

 

Your right completely forgot about that one. 10 Million down the drain. At least its not that bad a contract that cripples a team like Pujols or Hamilton.

[Frenchsoup]

In 2 or 3 years, Stroman could be another man on the bullpen; he's too short (5'2"). Extend Sanchez (6'9")!!

 

Yeah the height thing doesn't matter. The worry is if his stuff still plays when he loses a couple miles of velo.

[Frenchsoup]

When a $3 million deal is considered a "flop" I would say you have done a good job in that regard.

 

It was a 4 year deal no?

[burlingtonbandit]

It was a 4 year deal no?

 

3 years with an option of a 4th. 10 million combined.

[KingKat]

When a $3 million deal is considered a "flop" I would say you have done a good job in that regard.

 

You could say that but if your alternative to signing big free agent contracts yourself is to give up cheap controllable assetts to obtain them via trade (essentially the Marlins trade) then I'd say being risk averse on the free agent market hasn't worked out so great.

[TwistedLogic]

It's just about the ones that walk away, it's also about the ones that should have (Wells). That beind said, I get your point. The Jays generally extend players when they get close to free agency and they will probably continue to do it as long as the contracts are not of the Vernon Wells scale. On the other hand, what I think the Jays won't be doing anymore is the Lind and Romero type deals where the player is far away from free agency. That's what we're seing right now with Lawrie.

The fact that Wells got an atrocious contract is irrelevant to this discussion, no? The only points in relation to that contract that pertain to this discussion are that a) Ricciardi signed the contract and Anthopoulos got rid of it. AA didn't sign that contract. It is clearly part of his policy to not give out contracts that big and that long (cue Tabler joke?) in the first place. Which, yeah again, people rage about, but people rage about everything. So far, every single time he has chosen to sit out on a free agent because of years, it has worked out for him, so he has no reason to divert from that path. If he sticks to his guns, he's never gonna sign a Wells-like contract that he will ever even have a chance to regret.

[KingKat]

The fact that Wells got an atrocious contract is irrelevant to this discussion, no? The only points in relation to that contract that pertain to this discussion are that a) Ricciardi signed the contract and Anthopoulos got rid of it. AA didn't sign that contract. It is clearly part of his policy to not give out contracts that big and that long (cue Tabler joke?) in the first place. Which, yeah again, people rage about, but people rage about everything. So far, every single time he has chosen to sit out on a free agent because of years, it has worked out for him, so he has no reason to divert from that path. If he sticks to his guns, he's never gonna sign a Wells-like contract that he will ever even have a chance to regret.

 

I already shifted the discussion away from Wells in my own post.

[TwistedLogic]

Hindsight is always 20/20

 

I don't care if hindsight is 20/20, my judgement is not based on hindsight. Ive actually openly stated here how much I despise when people make their judgements based on hindsight, and that happens here 95% of the time.

 

If I refer to something in hindsight, it's because I had the same sentiment at that time. I can't be f***ed to sift through thousands of posts on my prosportsdaily account, but if someone is obsessed with proving me wrong (won't surprise me at all) they can feel free to go there and find it. I thought Romero was hot garbage even when people considered him the "ace of the staff", and I made that known in writing. Yes, maybe I was even wrong to an extent for being overly judgemental of him, but that was driven further by all of those annoying f***ing commercials where he's got his stupid focused face on, beating his own hype, acting like he's a top pitcher in the game. Even at the best of his career, the guy was never better than a #3 starter on a halfway decent team.

 

Every time I ever picked up the Jays roster in any kind of fantasy baseball game, Romero was always the first guy I'd get rid of, just because of how less I thought of him and how much more everybody else did.

[TwistedLogic]

I already shifted the discussion away from Wells in my own post.

 

I know that. I just wanted to expand on it anyway because people do have this misplaced sentiment that the Wells contract has any sort of bearing on current baseball operations. I'm sure it's there as a form of reference for bad contracts, but that's equally true for all bad contracts. I highly doubt that the Jays organization is suffering from some sort of PTSD specifically because of his extension.

[KingKat]

I know that. I just wanted to expand on it anyway because people do have this misplaced sentiment that the Wells contract has any sort of bearing on current baseball operations. I'm sure it's there as a form of reference for bad contracts, but that's equally true for all bad contracts. I highly doubt that the Jays organization is suffering from some sort of PTSD specifically because of his extension.

 

I think the only relevance of the Wells contract is as a huge red flag for a Colby extension but it looks like the team never really had the means to do that anyways and now he sucks so much, he's probably played himself out of Wells money anyways.

[TwistedLogic]

I think the only relevance of the Wells contract is as a huge red flag for a Colby extension but it looks like the team never really had the means to do that anyways and now he sucks so much, he's probably played himself out of Wells money anyways.

 

To be honest, I don't really see any form of comparison at all between those two players.

[KingKat]

To be honest, I don't really see any form of comparison at all between those two players.

 

Too much value tied to CF defense.

[TwistedLogic]

Extend Jeff Hoffman. - TL 2014

[burlingtonbandit]

I don't mind this strategy for position players but not pitchers. Even though I believe in both Hutch and Stro long term.

 

This. I think there is still value to targeting position players to team friendly deals early in their careers. Lawrie seems obvious that you don't need to do that becasue most of his value is tied to his defence. Maybe you sign him to something if he is going to play 2nd base because he could get a larger contract on the open market as a 2nd baseman. Still the injury concern is pretty high that I don't think you would want to risk it.

[GD]

Extend Jeff Hoffman. - TL 2014

 

Extend Josh Naylor. We haven't picked him yet? Semantics! - GD 2014

[abola2121]

Welcome to my ignore list!

[TwistedLogic]

Extend Josh Naylor. We haven't picked him yet? Semantics! - GD 2014

 

Lol'd at post. Lol'd harder at sig. That was a great thread.

[Angrioter]

Extend Josh Naylor. We haven't picked him yet? Semantics! - GD 2014

 

Over Goins?

 

f*** man, you're crazy as f***.

[GD]

Over Goins?

 

f*** man, you're crazy as f***.

 

Maybe we'll have room for both now that we've saved money by not having to extend Stud Deck McGuire.

[McD]

I don't care if hindsight is 20/20, my judgement is not based on hindsight. Ive actually openly stated here how much I despise when people make their judgements based on hindsight, and that happens here 95% of the time.

 

If I refer to something in hindsight, it's because I had the same sentiment at that time. I can't be f***ed to sift through thousands of posts on my prosportsdaily account, but if someone is obsessed with proving me wrong (won't surprise me at all) they can feel free to go there and find it. I thought Romero was hot garbage even when people considered him the "ace of the staff", and I made that known in writing. Yes, maybe I was even wrong to an extent for being overly judgemental of him, but that was driven further by all of those annoying f***ing commercials where he's got his stupid focused face on, beating his own hype, acting like he's a top pitcher in the game. Even at the best of his career, the guy was never better than a #3 starter on a halfway decent team.

 

Every time I ever picked up the Jays roster in any kind of fantasy baseball game, Romero was always the first guy I'd get rid of, just because of how less I thought of him and how much more everybody else did.

 

Be careful here. If you express 1000 opinions and are correct with one then maybe don't overhype yourself, still wrong with 999.

[TwistedLogic]

Be careful here. If you express 1000 opinions and are correct with one then maybe don't overhype yourself, still wrong with 999.

 

Find 999 instances where I was wrong, and you'll be onto something