Jeff Blair - Signs from FO strongly suggest both Melky and Colby gone next year

[Mikeleelop]

and what do you suggest?

 

fire PB and AA, blow it up and start over

[Mikeleelop]

Based off what is that "fair"? Just because this amount didn't get it done? What makes $150M fair (even though you wanted to spend more than $150M)?

 

This doesn't address anything. You didn't think the current level was "fair," simply because it left the team with what you saw as "holes."

 

So, again, what if, at the end of this year, at $158M, we still had "holes" and didn't make the playoffs? Would more expenditures then be "fair" in your eyes?

 

So you're just setting an arbitrary number cutoff different than what you see as ownership's arbitrary number cutoff as your "no mas" limit. OK. But that doesn't mean that ownership didn't give management a fair shake. It just means you picked a different random number one year later based on perceived need.

 

So what we're left with, is an adequate payroll, and an insufficient team.

 

Therefore, blame goes to management.

 

i think $150 is fair because it is what other large market teams are paying. we are a large market team

[Slot Machine]

People shouldn't be eager to do this... unless we are replacing those guys with really qualified/proven guys.

 

Well, unless the new plan is to poach Ruben Amaro or Dayton Moore it really can't get that much worse.

[Mikeleelop]

As I've stated many times before, and stated consistently, I thought the Marlins deal was s***. I wouldn't have even gone there. And getting Dickey was chasing bad money after bad. The whole thing was screwed from the beginning. But assuming the team was in the position it was in following last year, I would have torn it down, because it's fundamentally flawed.

 

Even with two gold mines, in Bautista and EE, they didn't have what it takes to build a quality org for a sustained winner. That's pretty f***ed.

 

So, you wipe the slate clean. No retool. There are enough tools on this team already [and maybe that skews my managerial decisions, but I'd like to think I'm smart enough to put aside my intense desire to choke out guys like Bautista and Lawrie (and that WOULD be fun as hell), and make the nuclear decision in the best interests of the org].

 

i agree, that you go clean. I'm a Buffalo Sabre fan (ugh) and i love what they have done. I can see the light at the end of the tunnel. Two or three years from now they will compete for Cup, not just hope to make the playoffs annually like the Leafs. We are at that point with the Blue Jays. Either clean it up and sell your assets now or Retool and continue to languish in mediocrity.

 

we disagree on what should have happened after 2013.

[GeorgiaPeach]

Bautista, EE and...

 

Wells

[Nox]

Bautista, EE and...

 

A Tony Reagins seizure or whatever lead him to think taking on Wells' contract was a good idea.

[BTS]

Wells

 

Has any other GM in the game had more than one such stroke of franchise-altering luck in the last 4 years? Edwin/Bautista/Wells is just a ridiculous run. I'm trying to think of similar breaks for other GMs.

[Nox]

Has any other GM in the game had more than one such stroke of franchise-altering luck in the last 4 years? Edwin/Bautista/Wells is just a ridiculous run. I'm trying to think of similar breaks for other GMs.

 

The only thing close is the Dodgers and their near infinite budget offering to take the Crawford/Gonzalez/Beckett contracts off Cherrington's hands (While flipping them a few semi-useful pieces in the process).

Edited July 15, 2014 by Nox

[glory]

When he spent the money is irrelevant. Would it have made a difference if he acquired Reyes and Dickey after 2013, rather than 2012? They still ended up there. If you go grocery shopping every week, but decide to do two weeks worth of grocery shopping one week, it isn't a horra that you didn't go out that second week and buy more.

 

I'm not arguing that his 2012 spending was bad. It was. I'm saying he never made a single follow-up move with the exception of Navarro, which proves either he's a moron who thought Goins at 2B, two rotation spots unfilled, and Sierra on the bench was going to push them to contention, or he didn't have the capability of making further moves.

 

 

I neither dodged nor misunderstood the question. It's a stupid, irrelevant question, and yet I pointed out that additions and subtractions happen all the time. Sometimes, they barely do anything to add, but they lose. Sometimes, they lose a ton and spend a ton just to get back to where they were ... or not even back to where they were. Sometimes they open up more holes than they plug. Sometimes they spend like crazy and address a lot of holes. Sometimes they leave potential holes unaddressed.

 

Again, is there a well run high payroll team out there that spends an entire off-season doing nothing but minor league signings and waiver pick-ups?

 

You can choose not to answer the question if you want, or choose to throw insults for no reason, but I'll save you the trouble and tell you that you'd be wrong (again) if you suggested that a will run team (ownership and GM) would operate like that.

 

 

What are my claims?

 

A quick summation: everything is within the GM's control.

 

 

I am assuming no such thing. And your attempt to characterize what I'm saying in this manner is "insanely stupid."

 

Which answer best describes your opinion:

 

A) AA's moves this off-season were meant to improve the roster.

AA's moves this off-season were not meant to improve the roster.

 

If your answer is A, then you're delusional. A GM looking to save his ass is not going to spend all winter signing minor league free agents and waiver pick-ups. He'd be doing something, anything, to improve the MLB roster within the limitations of payroll. That's logical.

 

So why didn't Alex do anything? You are clearly implying that the roster construction lay entirely at his feet, so explain to me how he felt signing nothing but minor leaguers and a s***** catcher was his way of improving the team…..one freakin' winter after trading about a dozen prospects for expensive experienced vets?

 

Is Alex bipolar? He wants to hoard assets one season, spend recklessly the next, and then do nothing the year after that?

 

 

 

What? Explain what point you're driving at here and what relevance this question has to said point.

 

Most likely that his hands were tied. I'll get to it below.

 

 

 

What the hell are you trying to get at here?

 

Are you suggesting that, not only was Rogers concerned about not increasing payroll, but that they somehow didn't want him to make any moves at all, regardless of their net effect on expenditures? If so, that's just insane thinking.

 

That's not insane thinking when it has happened twice in five years.

 

Yes, I am flat out suggesting that Rogers tied the hands of the GM. Ricciardi did not make any MLB transactions in the 2009 off-season. Not a single one. Everyone he signed was on a minor league deal. He signed all his arby eligible players, then signed nothing but MiLB deal. He was fired at the end of that season.

 

Fast forward to 2014. Alex signs a catcher to a deal that he himself admitted was identical to what JPA would have made in arbitration, and then nothing but minor league signings and waiver claims. He'll probably be fired after this season, barring a playoff appearance.

 

So please explain to me, since you are so sure that my position is wrong, why did two almost identical modes of behavior happen within five years and not once is the ownership group responsible for it? Was it a weird coincidence? Are you that naive?

 

 

 

It was probably the Illuminati.

 

And you're either lying, or have a faulty memory. He traded Scott Rolen. Waived Rios (and luckily, at the time, got someone to take him on). Signed Millar. Signed Dellucci.

 

What exactly are you trying to claim here?

 

Yes, because the Rolen and Rios moves happened in the off-season, and Millar and Dellucci were MLB deals.

 

Read. Please.

 

 

That's only because you don't understand business. It can all be explained logically if you stop looking for conspiracies and crazy "mind/action-control" s***.

 

Dodging an argument by insinuating that you're arguing with a crazy person is both a time waster and proof you are also crazy (a sane person wouldn't argue with a crazy one).

 

On that note, we are running in circles here. When Alex is fired, payroll is reduced after the season, and the new GM hypes up a brand new rebuilding phase that ends prematurely, we can rekindle this argument about how great Rogers is. So, I'll see you in about four years.

[Nox]

Yes, I am flat out suggesting that Rogers tied the hands of the GM.

 

He tied his own hands with the moves he made. If I were Rogers, I probably wouldn't trust him with an extra $20M to spend going forward either. They might very well have tied his hands but you know what, maybe that's a good thing. There's a non-zero chance he'd set that hypothetical $20M on fire even more spectacularly than he did pre 2013.

 

On the other hand, if ownership does not trust management to such a degree (as might be the case here), then they should fire said management group. That's probably Rogers' biggest failure over the past 12 months.

[Nox]

^ What did you do with Darrell #2?

[BTS]

The only thing close is the Dodgers and their near infinite budget offering to take the Crawford/Gonzalez/Beckett of Cherrington's hands (While flipping them a few semi-useful pieces in the process).

 

Ironically enough, that one break lead to a WS win, and Cherrington is pretty dumn himself.

[Inklink]

I have a hard time believing Blair. Like Mcown ,sounds like he makes up sources to sound like he's in-the-know.

 

That said, they should re-sign Melky!!

[TheHurl]

Has anyone seen the free agent list next year? Who the heck are the Jays going to replace Melky and Rasmus with? Aoki and overpay for Cruz? If they make a deadline trade, they won't have enough to acquire a guy in a trade. I for one do not want to see Pillar trotting out there everyday.

 

Also look forward to seeing Izturis being the everyday 2nd baseman again.

 

Here is a crazy thought...how about looking for someone to replace Melky who maybe isn't putting up good offensive numbers but will next year or at least will put up way more value. Someone like Scott Van Slyke (who can play all three OF positions and 1B (Mattingly sucks this guys dick all the time so I don't think he'd be as easy to trade for as before...but there are always guys like him out there)...Chris Heisey, Eric Young, maybe a cheap platoon. It's really not tough to replace Melky.

[fireballW]

Id take Melky over any of those guys. The thing about signing guys for value is that you do it so you can spend the saved money on something else. It is evident that players not wanting to sign here is becoming an increasing problem. Top stars need to be way overpaid for. Mediocre guys usually have a few similar offers and wont choose to come here all things being equal. The value reclamation projects dont want to come here at all (turf/bad pitchers park). We can probably usually only sign guys who have hardly any other place interested in them, or overpay like with Macier. These value guys people want, usually they want them for a reaaon, which means other teams probably want them too. So why would they even bother to go to Toronto.

[GeorgiaPeach]

Here is a crazy thought...how about looking for someone to replace Melky who maybe isn't putting up good offensive numbers but will next year or at least will put up way more value. Someone like Scott Van Slyke (who can play all three OF positions and 1B (Mattingly sucks this guys dick all the time so I don't think he'd be as easy to trade for as before...but there are always guys like him out there)...Chris Heisey, Eric Young, maybe a cheap platoon. It's really not tough to replace Melky.

 

Kev, who would say no to this deal?

 

Encarnacion or Bautista to the Mariners for Nick Franklin, Dustin Ackley, Victor Sanchez, Tyler Pike & Dominic Leone?

 

We address 2B with Franklin, we get an upgrade in LF defensively with Ackley and maybe a change of location opens his offensive game up, two young SP's in the high minors & a hard throwing back of the pen arm.

[GD]

Jays should never ever ever ever ever do that ever

[GeorgiaPeach]

Jays should never ever ever ever ever do that ever

 

As much as never, ever, ever extend them when their contracts are up.

[GD]

I'd rather keep them than trade them for that return. A decent MIF prospect, a crappy LF, TNSTAAP x2 and a reliever for a top tier player? We could do a lot better.

[shortstop]

Moog, I get the off-season non-happenings from Rogers perspective. I get the theory of a lame-duck GM, Rogers hands off guys pulling the strings. What's interesting about all that is AA came out of last season saying the $$'s would be there for priorities - pitching. You don't come out with that unless you have assurances you do in fact have the $$'s to spend. Then the tap was cut off.

 

 

Anyways, the issue is the here & now...say in the past month or so, did AA want to make a trade & bring on some salary for the remainder of this year (I get why Rogers wouldn't want to take on any salary moving forward) but could not do so b/c he could not add salary? What about right now - is AA able to take on some salary - say $3-$6M for a player whose a free agent at the end of the year?

 

B/c if so, that's just stupid on Rogers part, power play or whatever, when you had a team in first & currently, only 4 games out & 2.5 away from the wild card.

[GeorgiaPeach]

Everyone who ever had a rooting interest for the Blue Jays. And anyone who has ever been to Toronto and liked the city. And anyone who has ever heard of Canada.

 

A real fan would have never posted a silly hypothetical trade like this. Only a casual fan, not worthy of a discussion about baseball.

 

#reelbazeballfanzrool

 

I was wrong. Let's make that trade for Cliff Lee. 25m per over multiple years for a banged up, mid 30's pitcher.

 

I'm down for that.

[GeorgiaPeach]

I may start spamming the forum with more dumb trades to get myself banned.

 

I miss the good ol' days when people got upset.

[saskjayfan]

I may start spamming the forum with more dumb trades to get myself banned.

 

I miss the good ol' days when people got upset.

 

Is it really that hard for you to just ignore a post if it presents a trade so ludicrous that it doesn't merit a response.

[GeorgiaPeach]

Is it really that hard for you to just ignore a post if it presents a trade so ludicrous that it doesn't merit a response.

 

But the projections....and Cliff Lee and that reasonable contract and now and don't worry and gonna get raped by Amaro and who cares.

[saskjayfan]

But the projections....and Cliff Lee and that reasonable contract and now and don't worry and gonna get raped by Amaro and who cares.

 

they were debating the merits of a cliff lee trade yesterday on MLB radio. Clearly their is risk and upside. You negotiate the contract and the player. You're not going to take on the full contract and give quality players. If Philly eats more of the contract they get better players. A Cliff Lee trade could work out well for a team trading for him. He could return to previous glory, or he could fall off a cliff.

 

While Lee isn't a great fit for Toronto, the Jays still should be looking to add a headley, hill, prado...etc. There should be money available at this point in the season, even if there was none at the beginning of the season.

[GeorgiaPeach]

they were debating the merits of a cliff lee trade yesterday on MLB radio. Clearly their is risk and upside. You negotiate the contract and the player. You're not going to take on the full contract and give quality players. If Philly eats more of the contract they get better players. A Cliff Lee trade could work out well for a team trading for him. He could return to previous glory, or he could fall off a cliff.

 

While Lee isn't a great fit for Toronto, the Jays still should be looking to add a headley, hill, prado...etc. There should be money available at this point in the season, even if there was none at the beginning of the season.

 

I fear an unpalatable trade coming.

[Governator]

If it's easy to find a solid replacement LF that's equal to Melky's value, then how come the Jays have had below average LF options for the better part of the past decade? They aren't a dime a dozen. Not signing Melky and then having to subsequently trade assets for a replacement would bring much less value to the organization than giving Melky a qualifying offer, especially when he's worth close to the value of it to begin with.

[Nox]

Encarnacion or Bautista to the Mariners for Nick Franklin, Dustin Ackley, Victor Sanchez, Tyler Pike & Dominic Leone?

 

The idea itself of trading one of Bau or Edwin is not crazy but they'd be able to fetch a much better package.

[GeorgiaPeach]

Wait, what?

 

Your suggested trade was horrible value for the Jays.

 

And hypothetical trade posts are usually something young kids and casual fans utilize.

 

Cliff Lee has nothing to do with that reality.

 

No one player or hypothetical trade suggested on here means anything.

 

Cliff Lee, Prado, Headley, Scott VanSlyke, Ian Kennedy, it's all just speculation.

 

Me personally I'd rather pay a little more in trade to nab a younger piece who'll be here longer than 2 months, or 8 months dependent on their contract.

 

Take Prado or Chase Headley for example. The D-Backs or Pads could eat some of their contracts and we'd still be giving up a good prospect. They're not looking to bring back a s*** prospect, just because we're saving them some money. So instead of giving up a good prospect for a short term fix, give up a better prospect for a short & long term solution.

[Frenchsoup]

No one player or hypothetical trade suggested on here means anything.

 

Cliff Lee, Prado, Headley, Scott VanSlyke, Ian Kennedy, it's all just speculation.

 

Me personally I'd rather pay a little more in trade to nab a younger piece who'll be here longer than 2 months, or 8 months dependent on their contract.

 

Take Prado or Chase Headley for example. The D-Backs or Pads could eat some of their contracts and we'd still be giving up a good prospect. They're not looking to bring back a s*** prospect, just because we're saving them some money. So instead of giving up a good prospect for a short term fix, give up a better prospect for a short & long term solution.

 

Younger guys usually equal more volatility though. Look at Xander everyone on this board thought he was ready to step in after one month, not so fast.