GDT(2/3): Toronto Blue Jays @ Cleveland Indians - Buehrle vs. Kluber - 1:05 PM ET

[leaffie]

Buck Martinez when he managed the team did something similar. A blind friend of mine wanted some autographs and Buck quietly made it happen. He called in the players who weren't out there signing. He earned my respect as a person. I think that counts for something.

 

Absolutely right. My girls will never forget it.

[jays4life19]

18 games into the season: Jays tied in first. Sox are in last. It's only April 19th but f*** yes.

[Eragon]

18 games into the season: Jays tied in first. Sox are in last. It's only April 19th but f*** yes.

 

Agreed. Who knows... it may be the most meaningful baseball we get in the next 5-10 years.

[Cooler Heads Prevail]

Who said it's "all" luck. He's still been above average, but certainly not best in the league.

 

It is your preoccupation with statistics and what they mean that is delusional. You are over thinking everything. Nobody claims that Buehrle is the best in the league, even if he so far posted a best stat in a category. Saying he's been "above average" understates his start. You seem bothered by the concept that one of our starters has pitched like an Ace for a short run. He has. And he has done this in the past as well, but we don't need that all season, nor will he do that. What he might do is post one of his better seasons which would be a great thing for the Jays because frankly he looked to be losing his skills early last season. You want to do something useful you should look into whether strong positive momentum after 5 starts correlates well with season success for starters. I think it does, but data would help confirm it.

 

He pitched a 4 hit shutout for 7 innings and you chose to post repeatedly about how "lucky" he is. Pointless. He's going to pitch, Redmond or Rogers won't take his job. And if he outperforms his career norms it's a major positive for the Jays this season.

[GD]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-U2kx9Gfisq4/Tf96N17xrNI/AAAAAAAADys/imDlh0yknqY/s1600/Straw-man3.jpg

[havok24]

It is your preoccupation with statistics and what they mean that is delusional. You are over thinking everything. Nobody claims that Buehrle is the best in the league, even if he so far posted a best stat in a category. Saying he's been "above average" understates his start. You seem bothered by the concept that one of our starters has pitched like an Ace for a short run. He has. And he has done this in the past as well, but we don't need that all season, nor will he do that. What he might do is post one of his better seasons which would be a great thing for the Jays because frankly he looked to be losing his skills early last season. You want to do something useful you should look into whether strong positive momentum after 5 starts correlates well with season success for starters. I think it does, but data would help confirm it.

 

He pitched a 4 hit shutout for 7 innings and you chose to post repeatedly about how "lucky" he is. Pointless. He's going to pitch, Redmond or Rogers won't take his job. And if he outperforms his career norms it's a major positive for the Jays this season.

 

lol okay there Jack.

[theblujay]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-U2kx9Gfisq4/Tf96N17xrNI/AAAAAAAADys/imDlh0yknqY/s1600/Straw-man3.jpg

 

Please show me the strawman. I don't see anything wrong with what chp said, he's right. It's obnoxious to say that Burhrles only been good because of luck on batted balls. By watching the games he's started you can see that he's been pitching very well, hitting his spots and mixing pitches effectively. Lots of called strikeouts are an indicator of this.

[GD]

It's obnoxious to say that Burhrles only been good because of luck on batted balls.

 

This isn't what he's saying though.

[GD]

Who's start was better? Buehrle today or Hutch yesterday?

 

Can't really remember the statline but I'm inclined to say Hutch. Can't argue with 38 K's or whatever.

[fatcowxlive]

Who's start was better? Buehrle today or Hutch yesterday?

 

Based on outcome? Buehrle easily; less baserunners, longer distance and less runs allowed

[fatcowxlive]

Can't really remember the statline but I'm inclined to say Hutch. Can't argue with 38 K's or whatever.

 

Why? Buehrle's start is better, I don't think you can use sabermetrics to measure this in this case. This is literally comparing one start to another, what you saw unfold, which one was better.

 

Now if the question was "Would you want Morrow to pitch a game like Buehrle's last start or Hutchison's last start, independent of the outcome, what would you rather him pitch like?" the answer would be Hutchison. But from what we saw, Buehrle's luck aside, he had the better game

[G-Snarls]

18 games into the season: Jays tied in first. Sox are in last. It's only April 19th but f*** yes.

 

Yep. May not last, but it's better than the opposite!

[G-Snarls]

I have to admit, I also kinda like how under the radar we are. No one is paying any attention. We could sneak up on teams in the AL East.

[Orgfiller]

Why? Buehrle's start is better, I don't think you can use sabermetrics to measure this in this case. This is literally comparing one start to another, what you saw unfold, which one was better.

 

Now if the question was "Would you want Morrow to pitch a game like Buehrle's last start or Hutchison's last start, independent of the outcome, what would you rather him pitch like?" the answer would be Hutchison. But from what we saw, Buehrle's luck aside, he had the better game

 

I'm sorry but 3K's 3BB HBP<<<9K's 0BB.

 

No real argument to be made. One guy's stuff was clearly better.

[fatcowxlive]

I'm sorry but 3K's 3BB HBP<<<9K's 0BB.

 

No real argument to be made. One guy's stuff was clearly better.

 

I'm not saying that Buehrle's outing wasn't fluky, or that it was uglier, but when the question is "Who had the better start" does it not come down to results?

[Orgfiller]

I'm not saying that Buehrle's outing wasn't fluky, or that it was uglier, but when the question is "Who had the better start" does it not come down to results?

 

Not really, you always want to go with the start that will prove more productive most of the time. I mean sure if you want to look at it that way we could say that if it was guaranteed we'd take a 9 IP, 10 walk 0 runs game over 8 innings 15 K's 3 runs allowed, even though the large majority of the time the latter start proves to be more effective and contributes more to the team in the long run.

[admin]

So sad, if we didn't blow that game against Minni, and Dickey was even average, we'd be a couple games up on everyone already.

[fatcowxlive]

Not really, you always want to go with the start that will prove more productive most of the time. I mean sure if you want to look at it that way we could say that if it was guaranteed we'd take a 9 IP, 10 walk 0 runs game over 8 innings 15 K's 3 runs allowed, even though the large majority of the time the latter start proves to be more effective and contributes more to the team in the long run.

 

No see, this is what I am talking about and what I said in my post to GD! Comparing starts, IMO Buehrle is better if we are looking at result and outcome. If we are saying "lets take Buehrle's outing and Hutch's outing and pan them out on the course of the season" I doubt the buehrle performance would generate the same results and Hutch's would be dominant.

 

But on that note, with JFaS's question about who's start was better, IMO if we get luck on our side for once, I say we take it in stride lol

[Orgfiller]

No see, this is what I am talking about and what I said in my post to GD! Comparing starts, IMO Buehrle is better if we are looking at result and outcome. If we are saying "lets take Buehrle's outing and Hutch's outing and pan them out on the course of the season" I doubt the buehrle performance would generate the same results and Hutch's would be dominant.

 

But on that note, with JFaS's question about who's start was better, IMO if we get luck on our side for once, I say we take it in stride lol

 

But luck is still luck, and a lot of the results in Buerhle's game relied on luck, whereas Hutch relied more on skill and catcher framing/fooling the ump (there were quite a few called strike outs).

[fatcowxlive]

But luck is still luck, and a lot of the results in Buerhle's game relied on luck, whereas Hutch relied more on skill and catcher framing/fooling the ump (there were quite a few called strike outs).

 

Ah I see, thanks for clarifying!

 

So sad, if we didn't blow that game against Minni, and Dickey was even average, we'd be a couple games up on everyone already.

 

Kyle Gibson was carving us up, even if Dickey was average we would have lost :/

[kgm1]

So sad, if we didn't blow that game against Minni, and Dickey was even average, we'd be a couple games up on everyone already.

 

So true . I do believe dickey will get it together but if he was pitching to his potential ( Or getting as Lucky as Buehrle ... LOL ) we would have that two game lead . Personally I give a f*** if MB has a rabbits foot around his neck or a horseshoo shoved up his ass as long as when he leaves the game he has allowed less runs than what our offense has scored .

[Maahfaace]

Common sense would be that pitchers never keep ERAs under 2 and it's obviously not true talent.

Never say never, just ask Greg Maddux an Pedro Martinez

[BigBounceyBlueBalls]

But luck is still luck, and a lot of the results in Buerhle's game relied on luck, whereas Hutch relied more on skill and catcher framing/fooling the ump (there were quite a few called strike outs).

 

But isn't it also true that we make our own luck! Hence the pitches, the tempo and selection of the way mark throws May be more likely to produce the appearance of luck ! No stat can really truly measure luck ! As there are 10 or more variables that on every hit that never remain constant or in flux ! Luck is like beauty it is in the eye of the beholder! Say you are walking down the street. On the ground you see a hundred dollar bill. You stop,you pick it up! You seem lucky! To a child a quater or a loonie might feel the same! But now say same token Donald Trump happens upon that same hundred dollar bill. He bends and picks it up and he is actually costing himself money! As he earns more per second then a hundred dollars! Does Donald feel lucky ? Can the luck in of all three be measured the same way! I say not ? Humans and human conditions come into play ? Nobody can predict the outcome of the reaction to events of any given play! Luck is a brother of chance ! Will is a brother of strength . And heart is no doubt a brother of clutch. That is why regardless of being the underdog or heavily the favourite, we still play the games! That's how heros are made and become legends! Luck never won a game no more then fate ever predetermined it ! You can dress up all your fancy stats anyway you like but they will still fail you as sure as luck ever will. That is why the saying goes stats are for *******s! That is why again we play the game! Because no two are ever in reality the same......play ball !

Edited April 20, 2014 by BigBounceyBlueBalls

[ElNik2013]

Buehrle's pitching style is going to make him look lucky because he's a contact pitcher and also pitches on the corners. Hutchison's start was good, except that he threw close to 100 pitches in his 5+ IP. He was unlucky with that Kipnis IF single before the Santana HR. Without that IF single, Santana may not have hit the HR.

 

Anyway...

[saskjayfan]

Buehrle's pitching style is going to make him look lucky because he's a contact pitcher and also pitches on the corners. Hutchison's start was good, except that he threw close to 100 pitches in his 5+ IP. He was unlucky with that Kipnis IF single before the Santana HR. Without that IF single, Santana may not have hit the HR.

 

Anyway...

 

Buehrle did have a few walks today, but typically when you have a starter who averaged less than 2 walks per 9 they are going to have some success when they live on the corners and your defense is solid.

 

The Jays team as a whole is not clicking on all cylinders, has had some injuries and they are still a top of the heap. That's the sign of a team that can compete.