Spring training thread

[Sparda]

Stroman's career high IP is 111 and he has never pitched above Double-A. I don't see the upside in him starting the year as the 5th starter, especially since they don't have the "fear of PCL" excuse to justify promoting pitchers straight to the Majors from Double-A anymore. Let him finish with 150 minor league innings this year, or at least wait until June to promote him. He might be the best option out of ST, but that doesn't mean it makes sense from a development standpoint. Same goes for Hutchison (who lacked innings even before his Tommy John Surgery).

 

Go with a tandem rotation of Rogers, Redmond, and McGowan for two months (have the hottest pitcher pitch and use the others in the pen to back that pitcher up).

 

He did throw some in the AFL this season, so the actual total is 123.1 innings pitched. Not a huge difference or anything, but I don't see why he couldn't go 160-170 this season. Limit his pitch counts some and if the team is blowing out the opposition during one of his starts, give him an early hook. If he's your 5th best option, you're wasting innings by having him throw in Buffalo.

[TheHurl]

Stroman's career high IP is 111 and he has never pitched above Double-A. I don't see the upside in him starting the year as the 5th starter, especially since they don't have the "fear of PCL" excuse to justify promoting pitchers straight to the Majors from Double-A anymore. Let him finish with 150 minor league innings this year, or at least wait until June to promote him. He might be the best option out of ST, but that doesn't mean it makes sense from a development standpoint. Same goes for Hutchison (who lacked innings even before his Tommy John Surgery).

 

Go with a tandem rotation of Rogers, Redmond, and McGowan for two months (have the hottest pitcher pitch and use the others in the pen to back that pitcher up).

 

He threw 120 innings in 2012 (College and Pro) and got a late start last year with the suspension. Arm strength really shouldn't be an issue. He averaged over 6.333 innings a start after July 1st, including an 8 inning gem where he was hitting his top speed in the 7th on September 2nd last year.

[GeorgiaPeach]

What do you honestly think you're getting back for Todd Redmond? He's a smoke and mirrors pitcher with a below average fastball and huge flyball tendencies. It's extremely unlikely that he duplicates the "success" he had last season if they throw him into a starter's role again.

 

Not much, as I explained in the post before this.

 

I don't wanna see McGowan, Drabek, Hutch or Stroman breaking camp with the Jays in the rotation. McGowan's best suited in the 'pen and Drabek's not far off with him. As for Hutch & Stroman, there's absolutely no reason why they can't be in Buffalo for a couple months. The Jays are not contending this year and there's no reason to rush them.

[Angrioter]

Stroman's career high IP is 111 and he has never pitched above Double-A. I don't see the upside in him starting the year as the 5th starter, especially since they don't have the "fear of PCL" excuse to justify promoting pitchers straight to the Majors from Double-A anymore. Let him finish with 150 minor league innings this year, or at least wait until June to promote him. He might be the best option out of ST, but that doesn't mean it makes sense from a development standpoint. Same goes for Hutchison (who lacked innings even before his Tommy John Surgery).

 

Go with a tandem rotation of Rogers, Redmond, and McGowan for two months (have the hottest pitcher pitch and use the others in the pen to back that pitcher up).

 

Jose Fernandez 20: 134 single A innings

Debut: 172.2 innings, 4,2 WinsAR

[GeorgiaPeach]

Stroman

"First day of camp in the books! Awesome personalities all over the clubhouse. Excited to be a part of it! #BLUEJAYS"

 

 

5th starter

 

Please no.

[GeorgiaPeach]

Redmond isn't very good. He threw 70ish acceptable innings and suddenly he's solid as a rock. We can't put pressure on hutch, drabek, McGowan, romero or stroman though....we have to run Redmond out for a few months and him fail before we bring one of those guys in so that there isn't any pressure on them. Give me a break. Redmond is chin min wang.....we should be putting out the best arm from day one...every game matters and working through some things from day one will be best for whoever that arm is.

 

Saskjayfan seen and overheard:

(tears welling up in eyes, lower lip quivering) "I'm gonna be sooooo mad if the Jays don't break camp with the absolute best team in 2014....a non-contending year, because I'm a fan and I deserve to see the best possible team without any considerations for the future where the team has a chance to be better.

 

Screw depth and the future, I'm a Blue Jays fan and we're a powerhouse"

 

BARF!!!!!!

[TheHurl]

The Jays are not contending this year and there's no reason to rush them.

 

No way management or anyone should be thinking this way, it's just not done and certainly not with a $150M payroll team. A understand putting guys in the minors who have the options. I don't even mind the Jays optimizing innings by using lots of minor league options (saving the pen).

[GeorgiaPeach]

This team has zero shot....love it. Great post.

 

Its called being realistic.

[GeorgiaPeach]

Man Kratz has some pretty impressive minor league numbers. Might be a diamond in the rough (assuming he can play defense).

 

He's 34 in June.

[KingKat]

Redmond last year:

 

[TABLE=class: sortable stats_table row_summable]

[TR]

[TH=class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center]IP[/TH]

[TH=class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center]H[/TH]

[TH=class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center]R[/TH]

[TH=class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center]ER[/TH]

[TH=class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center]HR[/TH]

[TH=class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center]BB[/TH]

[TH=class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center]IBB[/TH]

[TH=class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center]SO[/TH]

[TH=class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center]HBP[/TH]

[TH=class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center]BK[/TH]

[TH=class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center]WP[/TH]

[TH=class: tooltip, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center]BF[/TH]

[TH=class: tooltip hide_non_quals, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center]ERA+[/TH]

[TH=class: tooltip sort_default_asc hide_non_quals, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center]WHIP[/TH]

[TH=class: tooltip sort_default_asc hide_non_quals, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center]H/9[/TH]

[TH=class: tooltip sort_default_asc hide_non_quals, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center]HR/9[/TH]

[TH=class: tooltip sort_default_asc hide_non_quals, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center]BB/9[/TH]

[TH=class: tooltip hide_non_quals, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center]SO/9[/TH]

[TH=class: tooltip hide_non_quals, bgcolor: #DADCDE, align: center]SO/BB[/TH]

[/TR]

[/TABLE]

[TABLE=class: sortable stats_table row_summable]

[TR=class: full hl, bgcolor: #FFFFAA !important]

[TD=align: right]77.0[/TD]

[TD=align: right]70[/TD]

[TD=align: right]38[/TD]

[TD=align: right]37[/TD]

[TD=align: right]13[/TD]

[TD=align: right]23[/TD]

[TD=align: right]2[/TD]

[TD=align: right]76[/TD]

[TD=align: right]6[/TD]

[TD=align: right]0[/TD]

[TD=align: right]1[/TD]

[TD=align: right]324[/TD]

[TD=align: right]95[/TD]

[TD=align: right]1.208[/TD]

[TD=align: right]8.2[/TD]

[TD=align: right]1.5[/TD]

[TD=align: right]2.7[/TD]

[TD=align: right]8.9[/TD]

[TD=align: right]3.30

 

[/TD]

[/TR]

[/TABLE]

Will he replicate that? Almost assuredly he will not because those are some serioulsy awesome number but just because he won't repeat that doesn't mean we should completely ignore that it happened either. He could be a lot worse and still be a serviceable 5th starter. I don't understand the rush to bury this guy at all. He's earned some rope.

[Angrioter]

Jose Fernandez Tommy John's 2014.

 

Tom Verducci is a joke.............. Random predictions

[Sparda]

Not much, as I explained in the post before this.

 

I don't wanna see McGowan, Drabek, Hutch or Stroman breaking camp with the Jays in the rotation. McGowan's best suited in the 'pen and Drabek's not far off with him. As for Hutch & Stroman, there's absolutely no reason why they can't be in Buffalo for a couple months. The Jays are not contending this year and there's no reason to rush them.

 

The Jays aren't contending this year? That's news to me. I don't think they're a powerhouse, but they're a good team. Certainly good enough to where they shouldn't have below average starters crack the opening day rotation for the sole purpose of showcasing them and maybe bringing back a marginal return later in the season. That's something a rebuilding team would do... are you suggesting they blow up the entire team and start building for 5 years down the road again?

[GeorgiaPeach]

No way management or anyone should be thinking this way, it's just not done and certainly not with a $150M payroll team. A understand putting guys in the minors who have the options. I don't even mind the Jays optimizing innings by using lots of minor league options (saving the pen).

 

Wow....too many people are all-in on this Jays being a powerhouse. Sorry Kev, they're coming up short in my books. And if it means that the team is throwing caution to the wind like the Yankees do, then this organization is in huge trouble going forward.

[GeorgiaPeach]

The Jays aren't contending this year? That's news to me.

 

It's my opinion. And for me contention is being in a pennant race up until mid-September or making the playoffs.

 

I don't think they're a powerhouse, but they're a good team.

 

I agree

 

Certainly good enough to where they shouldn't have below average starters crack the opening day rotation for the sole purpose of showcasing them and maybe bringing back a marginal return later in the season. That's something a rebuilding team would do...

 

Based on how the FO is currently operating the Jays should be doing everything they can to be competitive, yet still efficient.

 

are you suggesting they blow up the entire team and start building for 5 years down the road again?

 

Nope. I expect a GM to cut to the bone once and only once. After that I expect re-tooling, not a full gutting of the team again.

[Abomination]

He threw 120 innings in 2012 (College and Pro) and got a late start last year with the suspension. Arm strength really shouldn't be an issue. He averaged over 6.333 innings a start after July 1st, including an 8 inning gem where he was hitting his top speed in the 7th on September 2nd last year.

 

I'd assume he was probably throwing during the suspension too, just not in actual games. Not sure exactly how the rules work for that, but you can probably tack on the equivalent of another 30 innings to the total.

[John_Havok]

I'm not saying sell them all. But hanging on for too long is just lazy or stupid. As for moving Redmond, I would expect a prospect or two in the low minors with a little bit of upside who would take the place of a promotion to start weeding out organization guys in the higher levels.

 

Its a replenishing process.

 

I doubt Redmond would fetch that much, but if you could get it, by all means.

[Sparda]

Based on how the FO is currently operating the Jays should be doing everything they can to be competitive, yet still efficient.

 

Nope. I expect a GM to cut to the bone once and only once. After that I expect re-tooling, not a full gutting of the team again.

 

I agree, which is why I think bringing in Redmond as the 5th starter if he's not your 5th best option isn't a good idea. You can't sacrifice wins for a little future value if you're trying to win now. Right now I think the Jays are fringe contenders (82-84 win team with average luck and average health) and even a single win is important to teams like that. Some fringy prospects you might get back for Redmond aren't worth that.

[Angrioter]

Heyman: Blue Jays among three teams looking at Jimenez

 

According to Jon Heyman of CBS Sports, a source familiar with the situation of Ubaldo Jimenez has told him that the free agent pitcher is currently being pursued by three teams, one of which is the Toronto Blue Jays. The other two teams are “unnamed” but Heyman goes on to assume the Baltimore Orioles are also “likely” interested and the other team “could be” the Seattle Mariners.

Heyman connected the same three teams to interest in Ervin Santana last week while Ken Rosenthal and Jon Morosi of Fox Sports reported that according to their source the Blue Jays and Orioles were among the teams to contact Santana’s agency Proformance Baseball. However as we wrote at the time, Mike Wilner of The Fan 590 says the Jays are not one of the teams “closing in” on Santana.

 

Where this leaves us I’m not exactly sure. It’s become a borderline ridiculous situation with most of what we are reading at this point likely posturing from agents. Obviously the Jays are interested in signing one of Jimenez or Santana. I thought four years at $14 million per was fair market value and although it’s unclear with draft compensation attached the price for either appears to have suppressed even lower than that.

 

The Mariners are a team to watch and could be more interested in signing a free agent pitcher now that Hisashi Iwakuma will be sidelined for 4-6 weeks with a finger injury. Like the Blue Jays, Seattle also has a protected first round pick and according to Rosenthal would lose the 46th overall pick by acquiring another FA with draft compensation attached.

 

As fans we’ve been sitting on pins and needles for months waiting for the Blue Jays to make a move that will upgrade their rotation. Pitchers and catchers had their first workout today and the question remains – will they be joined in Dunedin by a new teammate?

 

 

http://jaysjournal.com/2014/02/17/heyman-toronto-blue-jays-among-three-teams-looking-at-ubaldo-jimenez-news-rumors-hot-stove/

[TheHurl]

Wow....too many people are all-in on this Jays being a powerhouse. Sorry Kev, they're coming up short in my books. And if it means that the team is throwing caution to the wind like the Yankees do, then this organization is in huge trouble going forward.

 

I think they are coming up short too...but this is pretty much the exact team that they were going in with last year, with more depth in starting pitching. If anyone believed in them last year (which head office more than did, they mortgaged our future and put their future on the line) then they are sure to think this team can recover and contend. To not play for the playoffs with this payroll and the age of the team would be completely stupid and even more crippling to the fanbase. Everything that is happening right now is exactly the stuff that was mentioned last year when asked "what if it doesn't work, what's plan B" (to which all but a few people said, no way it'll fail or he'll rebuild the farm again...which we knew wouldn't happen as this would kill the casuals). The answer is and was there is no plan B so you have to hope that all things fall into place now and they have a 2012 O's kind of season. Which probably means making the most out of your pitchers with options.

 

I know you don't ever care about the casual fanbase and a team more concerned about putting butts in the seats in comparison to setting themselves up for the future. But truthfully your way is "fantasy" real world you have take fans into consideration. The unfortunate part with this F.O. is that (IMO) they forgot about baseball (or never knew a thing about it in the first place) completely and played to selling tickets.

[Convo]

it’s become a borderline ridiculous situation with most of what we are reading at this point likely posturing from agents.

 

this

[Angrioter]

Jays playoff team? ---->

[eastcoastjaysfan]

Someone go over to the Danforth and make sure Alex is still alive.

 

This is a f***ing joke. Another day, no action.

[saskjayfan]

Its called being realistic.

 

The Jays scored 712 runs last year. This was 9th in baseball, 8th in the AL. Detroit was 2nd with 796. The Jays got 712 runs with the following:

 

Reyes - 93 games

Melky - 88 games(games played were with a tumor on his spine

Lawrie -107 games

buatista 118 games

rasmus - 118 games

encarnacion - 143 games

a full season of JPA where he produced a .592 OPS

worst 2nd base production in the league

 

The core players missed over 300 games combined...that's 2 players missing 2 full seasons!

 

The Jays gave up 756 runs with 685 being earned runs. Pitching was not good and defense was not good. Goins will improve the defense. Navarro will be an improvement on defense over JPA. Having your core players healthy and playing will improve the defense.

 

The 3 and 4 starters in Johnson and Morrow did not play and when they did they played hurt or terrible. There was no depth in the rotation leading to wang, Ortiz, laffey, rogers, Redmond etc..pitching a lot of innings.

 

Morrow looks healthy. Jimenez or Santana could be signed.

 

A rotation of Dickey, Buehrle, Morrow Jimenez, Happ and better depth behind and defense behind can't shave 56 runs? 700 runs isn't a big stretch and would probably put them 20th or so in baseball...but an extra 90 runs on offense from having guys stay healthy would be a run differential of 100.....even if the run differential is 50 or 60 they should have a shot. The Yankees scored 650 runs and gave up 671 last year and won 85 games despite have a -21 run differential.

 

No shot...zero. Yes you are being realistic. Give me a break. A team with Bautista, Reyes, EE, Rasmus, Lind and Lawrie have no shot...none. You sound a lot more like a pessimist.

[GD]

The Yankees scored 650 runs and gave up 671 last year and won 85 games despite have a -21 run differential.

 

That's called 6.5 games of pythagorean luck.

[GeorgiaPeach]

I think they are coming up short too...but this is pretty much the exact team that they were going in with last year, with more depth in starting pitching. If anyone believed in them last year (which head office more than did, they mortgaged our future and put their future on the line) then they are sure to think this team can recover and contend.

 

I wasn't on board with them as a WS contender like most. I felt they were in the mix to possibly make the playoffs, but not as optimistic as most.

 

To not play for the playoffs with this payroll and the age of the team would be completely stupid and even more crippling to the fanbase. Everything that is happening right now is exactly the stuff that was mentioned last year when asked "what if it doesn't work, what's plan B" (to which all but a few people said, no way it'll fail or he'll rebuild the farm again...which we knew wouldn't happen as this would kill the casuals). The answer is and was there is no plan B so you have to hope that all things fall into place now and they have a 2012 O's kind of season. Which probably means making the most out of your pitchers with options.

 

I'm not a hoper. Either the team on paper is good enough to put up against other teams for me to believe they're a playoff team, or they aren't. If Alex swings and misses on Jimenez, Santana & Drew by design or a failure to do so, then I have them in the same boat as last year. They're a good team, don't get me wrong, but too much is riding on everything going right.

 

I know you don't ever care about the casual fanbase and a team more concerned about putting butts in the seats in comparison to setting themselves up for the future. But truthfully your way is "fantasy" real world you have take fans into consideration.

 

I'm well aware the casual fanbase has a purpose. A bigger one than I care to acknowledge. My problem is, if the Jays had continued on their path of making shrewd moves of building the farm, acquiring guys like Morrow, Rasmus & Lawrie and continued and continued to do that. Eventually you have a good, young sustainable team. And you keep digging to make the entire team better, pushing the ceilings of future teams higher and higher.

 

The FO pretty much pulled the future back and said we're competing now. Well, if you're gonna do that, then do it. Don't waffle on free agents prices. Heck Beeston said the owners have never said "no" when they've asked for money, so what's the hold up? Go offer Jimenez or Drew a real contract and get them here. If the FO is low-balling these guys, then the big boy team is just a dream.

 

The unfortunate part with this F.O. is that (IMO) they forgot about baseball (or never knew a thing about it in the first place) completely and played to selling tickets.

 

I chalk that completely up to Beeston.

[The_DH]

Someone go over to the Danforth and make sure Alex is still alive.

 

This is a f***ing joke. Another day, no action.

That would be funny if he'd been dead fora few months.

[saskjayfan]

I wasn't on board with them as a WS contender like most. I felt they were in the mix to possibly make the playoffs, but not as optimistic as most.

 

 

 

I'm not a hoper. Either the team on paper is good enough to put up against other teams for me to believe they're a playoff team, or they aren't. If Alex swings and misses on Jimenez, Santana & Drew by design or a failure to do so, then I have them in the same boat as last year. They're a good team, don't get me wrong, but too much is riding on everything going right.

 

 

 

I'm well aware the casual fanbase has a purpose. A bigger one than I care to acknowledge. My problem is, if the Jays had continued on their path of making shrewd moves of building the farm, acquiring guys like Morrow, Rasmus & Lawrie and continued and continued to do that. Eventually you have a good, young sustainable team. And you keep digging to make the entire team better, pushing the ceilings of future teams higher and higher.

 

The FO pretty much pulled the future back and said we're competing now. Well, if you're gonna do that, then do it. Don't waffle on free agents prices. Heck Beeston said the owners have never said "no" when they've asked for money, so what's the hold up? Go offer Jimenez or Drew a real contract and get them here. If the FO is low-balling these guys, then the big boy team is just a dream.

 

 

 

I chalk that completely up to Beeston.

 

Everything doesn't have to go right. I think you must be blind to the fact that everything went wrong last year! Tumor on a guys spine. A full year of JPA. Over 300 games lost to your core 6 position players...that's 2 full seasons. Losing 40% of your rotation....guys just have to play to their abilities and be reasonably healthy.

[GeorgiaPeach]

The Jays scored 712 runs last year. This was 9th in baseball, 8th in the AL. Detroit was 2nd with 796. The Jays got 712 runs with the following:

 

Reyes - 93 games

Melky - 88 games(games played were with a tumor on his spine

Lawrie -107 games

buatista 118 games

rasmus - 118 games

encarnacion - 143 games

a full season of JPA where he produced a .592 OPS

worst 2nd base production in the league

 

The core players missed over 300 games combined...that's 2 players missing 2 full seasons!

 

The Jays gave up 756 runs with 685 being earned runs. Pitching was not good and defense was not good. Goins will improve the defense. Navarro will be an improvement on defense over JPA. Having your core players healthy and playing will improve the defense.

 

The 3 and 4 starters in Johnson and Morrow did not play and when they did they played hurt or terrible. There was no depth in the rotation leading to wang, Ortiz, laffey, rogers, Redmond etc..pitching a lot of innings.

 

Morrow looks healthy. Jimenez or Santana could be signed.

 

A rotation of Dickey, Buehrle, Morrow Jimenez, Happ and better depth behind and defense behind can't shave 56 runs? 700 runs isn't a big stretch and would probably put them 20th or so in baseball...but an extra 90 runs on offense from having guys stay healthy would be a run differential of 100.....even if the run differential is 50 or 60 they should have a shot. The Yankees scored 650 runs and gave up 671 last year and won 85 games despite have a -21 run differential.

 

No shot...zero. Yes you are being realistic. Give me a break. A team with Bautista, Reyes, EE, Rasmus, Lind and Lawrie have no shot...none. You sound a lot more like a pessimist.

 

The smartest thing you said were the last 8 words.

 

I'm pessimistic about everything in life. And when something good happens, I appreciate it. Sorry if I don't think the best of every situation is gonna happen.

[saskjayfan]

The smartest thing you said were the last 8 words.

 

I'm pessimistic about everything in life. And when something good happens, I appreciate it. Sorry if I don't think the best of every situation is gonna happen.

 

 

so at the end of the season, if by some small miracle according to you, the jays make the post season or are right there the last week of the season people will say..oh you were the idiot who said they had zero shot and that will somehow make you feel good? Do you hire someone each morning to kick you in the balls first thing in the morning so your day can't get any worse..lol.

[GeorgiaPeach]

Everything doesn't have to go right. I think you must be blind to the fact that everything went wrong last year! Tumor on a guys spine. A full year of JPA. Over 300 games lost to your core 6 position players...that's 2 full seasons. Losing 40% of your rotation....guys just have to play to their abilities and be reasonably healthy.

 

I'm not blind to what happened at all. I think you're blind to what is and isn't happening with all the other teams. And I don't think it's fair for you to comment on the Jays if you're oblivious to what's happening elsewhere.

 

Before the 2013 season started I was not as optimistic as the rest of the fanbase in thinking the Jays were WS bound. So all your little injury talk about all these man-games missed means nothing to me. I didn't think they were good enough before all these injuries befell the Jays once again.