CNNSI: Blue Jays - Marlins trade 1 year later

[G-Snarls]

Decent read:

 

http://mlb.si.com/2013/11/19/blue-jays-marlins-trade-jose-reyes-josh-johnson-mark-buehrle/

[GD]

sigh

[Ziggyy108]

It would be dope if we pulled a Marlins with our roster.

 

We could get a way bigger haul.

 

Trading Bautista and Encarnacion alone could bolster the depth tremendously of the entire organization.

[dineke]

It would be dope if we pulled a Marlins with our roster.

 

We could get a way bigger haul.

 

Trading Bautista and Encarnacion alone could bolster the depth tremendously of the entire organization.

 

Ownership and AA won't allow it. Beeston said we're going to make the playoffs next year remember?

[The_DH]

We'd probably get two Deck Mcgwires and a Brett Lawrie in return. And two of them would need surgery.

[eastcoastjaysfan]

It`s definitely a franchise crippling trade.

 

So much young, controllable talent there.

[eastcoastjaysfan]

Even if Desclafani wasn`t thrown in... it would look a lot better. Guy probably turns into a solid backend pitcher for the Marlins.

[leaffie]

Where are all the people that were so angry that the Jays were the team that supposedly plundered the Marlins. Where are all the managers and writers that had the Jays, not only making the playoffs, but making it to the WS. Where are those odd makers from Vegas that had the Jays as favourites to win the WS. Plus where are all those fans that were calling for Selig to deny the trade because the Jays were taking advantage.

 

Once the injuries happened and the team was decimated, all of a sudden all the experts knew this team was never going to amount to anything.

 

I know there were Jays fans that didn't like giving up all those prospects. But there was certainly lots of excitement, better attendance and TV ratings through the roof. So far other than Syndergaard, not one of those prospects has stood out as the next great thing.

 

Did the Marlins win the trade? I hardly think so, and even if they did, you won't really know for at least another year.

[Laika]

Did the Marlins win the trade? I hardly think so, and even if they did, you won't really know for at least another year.

 

I think it will end up mostly being a lose-lose trade.

[Angrioter]

I think it will end up mostly being a lose-lose trade.

 

Yunel was the best player, put him in the equation. Too bad that Loria made ​​him into s***.

Loria, tu eres maricon

[Abomination]

Somehow TB managed to win the trade.

 

I don't know, Dietrich could be rather interesting (especially if the Marlins would have let him properly bake in the minors instead of promoting him after a handful of games in AA).

[jays4life19]

But we got the explosive Reyes

 

Who we could have gotten in free agency anyways

 

Lmao

 

That's why trading is stupid. BC we are paying them anyways. At least if they were free agent signings we would have only lost money

 

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2

 

s***** trade. No way Reyes signs with Toronto though.

[FireAlexAnthopoulos]

But there was certainly lots of excitement, better attendance and TV ratings through the roof.

 

What excitement? Other than the fluke win streak, this was a very boring, bad, and unlikeable team. There was nothing exciting about our players flashing the "Lo Viste" sign while down a million runs or JPA mouthing off to the press.

 

TV ratings actually dropped from the previous year.

Attendance went from bad to mediocre. When it dawns on the casual fans that this team is going nowhere anytime soon, attendance will plummet back down to the basement again.

[leaffie]

Oh come on now. Attendance was up by 400,000 plus. You may have not liked the team or what happened during the season, but 2013 started out with great enthusiasm. TV ratings are counted in different ways compared to the U.S. and at the beginning of the season's the Jays had the largest increase.

 

TheJays numbers were still strong near the end of the season, when they were sending out a AAA team. There are a lot of things you can say about last year, but you cannot say that this season, wasn't the most anticipated in the last ten years. At least, not with a straight face.

[leaffie]

TV ratings for the Jays was actually up 21% over 2012, according to numbers from rogers.

[jays4life19]

TV ratings for the Jays was actually up 21% over 2012, according to numbers from rogers.

 

Sounds about right.

[leaffie]

Wow. I didn't know that, but I'm happy about it. Hopefully attendance drops next year too so management can stop hiding behind increased fan support.

 

Why would anyone that spends a lot if time posting on a Jays message board be happy if attendance dropped. Would you like it to join the Rays as the lowest in MLB?

[dineke]

Lets be honest, they'e not firing Beeston.

[Cooler Heads Prevail]

Why would anyone that spends a lot if time posting on a Jays message board be happy if attendance dropped. Would you like it to join the Rays as the lowest in MLB?

 

In terms of franchise value, Forbes has Tampa Bay dead last. They also have a habit of never winning a World Series. I guess some on here just like having a decent team on the field that plays to empty crowds and is never quite good enough to win it all. Jays have always had decent attendance but in the 1980s they had the same habit of being close but never winning the Series. Only by spending on a few quality free agents and trading Kent ( for example ) did they break through. Most of the Jays moves in the years immediately preceding the World Series wins would have been wildly panned on here as bad moves ( taking on "declining" veterans, trading away youth ).

[leaffie]

Well they have had a change from Labatts to inter brew. How was that change. Then they had the change from Gillick to Ash,., Then we had the JPR era where he was going to build a team using the Oakland A's. All leading to useless teams, terrible attendance and getting worse.

 

So Beeston came back, hired AA and ever since things have been on an upswing. attendance, ratings, payroll. Up until the trade last off season, AA was a god, a ninja. The prospect lovers thought they had died and gone to heaven.

 

But there is no realism here. AA is dealing with FA's that put Toronto on their no trade list, yet you expect him to be able

 

to just get anyone to come here. There are a zillion complaints about how cheap Rogers is. They step up, and yet still complaints.

 

I for one, am glad they took the chance and went for it last year. But I guess I am one of those strange fans that likes to start the season, knowing their team has a CHANCE, and last year they had a chance.

[John_Havok]

I for one, am glad they took the chance and went for it last year. But I guess I am one of those strange fans that likes to start the season, knowing their team has a CHANCE, and last year they had a chance.

 

I get what your point is here, but wouldn't you rather have AA "took a chance" with moves that made a bit more sense and not severely cripple the farm system in trading for old players with large overvalued contracts? Spending money doesn't mean much if you spend it poorly while simultaneously setting the long term health of the franchise back.

[leaffie]

[ Fan interest picked up because Rogers allowed their GM to increase payroll by 50%. Seeing as he does indeed have a pulse, he was able to exchange that $40 million for decent players. The fans responded.

 

And you don't think Beeston had anything to do with that?

 

 

 

No. Opinion of AA declined throughout the 2012 season among people on the board. The offseason trades were the final straw. Regarding free agents, they came here for JP, why not AA? I really don't buy "free agents won't come here!" as a viable excuse for making horribly inefficient acquisitions. Why not tackle the international market if indeed MLB players wouldn't come (which I don't buy)? Chapman, Puig, Darvish, Ryu, and Iwakuma were all available, but AA's army of scouts apparently didn't realize how good they were. "

 

 

Strange, I read the boards all the time, and all I saw was continued praise for the ninja. Yes, they came here for JP, because he overpaid. When the Burnett and Ryan signings went down, a lot of managers were ripping the Jays for pushing the market price up.

 

Or maybe Rogers hadn't given Beeston the go ahead to spend $50 million dollars in a posting fee for Darvish. Or just maybe the scouting department was spending so much time just trying to rebuild an entire farm system, that the international market was far down the list.

 

 

To each their own. I prefer sustainable success.

 

And what fan wouldn't want a team like the cards. But other than the Rays, which team out there has sustainable success from their farm system.

 

The Jays were in a unique position last year, in that the year before had been a total bust with all the injuries. AA HAD to do something. They just could not let the momentum that had been building slip away. AA went looking for pitching and he got what was available. What GM was going to trade away prospects if they could get the same thing in free agency. No one.

 

I prefer a team that has a chance to make the playoffs, and if that involves spending money, so be it. If it can be achieved through a farm system, that every year, somehow miraculously, has all their draft picks work out and all mature at the same time, then good for the fans.

 

But in the Jays case, injuries last year wiped out any chance to see exactly what this team could be. I think a lot of people forget that.

[leaffie]

I get what your point is here, but wouldn't you rather have AA "took a chance" with moves that made a bit more sense and not severely cripple the farm system in trading for old players with large overvalued contracts? Spending money doesn't mean much if you spend it poorly while simultaneously setting the long term health of the franchise back.

 

I actually didn't mind the Marlin trade. I didn't like the Dickey trade at all. But this according to Beeston and AA was a three year window. At the end of three years, they are not stuck with any long term contracts. Their farm system at the lower levels is ranked very well and should be pushing their way up. I am more than willing to wait until the end of the three year window before I state it was a big mistake. I don't think he crippled the farm system, and he built what was a top 5 system in three years, and could easily do it again.

[TheHurl]

Strange, I read the boards all the time, and all I saw was continued praise for the ninja.

 

I would say that there are a core 10 posters who started to think there were chinks in the armour throughout the 2012 and certainly by the time the Happ and Snider deals happened there were many questioning if he actually had a vision, or was he just spinning the tires. There was a lot of resistance and the comments weren't as strong as there are now but it was there. I remember when I started telling everyone that TdA was going to be traded (last August is when I first heard it), 95% of the board didn't believe it despite the fact that I'm almost never wrong.

[leaffie]

Well any more hot rumours to pass on?

 

I think TDA will be a passable catcher, who will deal with numerous injuries. Snider, IMO, was a kid, that just couldn't adjust. Lots of potential, but the mlb is littered with them. So far either our farm system does not have the top quality prospects that people think, or they just aren't being developed properly. But so far I doubt any of the core 10 could point to someone that has been traded that has been a big success in the majors that we should never have traded.

[ElNik2013]

I think the franchise as a whole has not shown the willingness to commit to a thorough build-through-the-farm and youth philosophy for a long time so I think even if the GM had such a vision, he would run into problems. I'm not trying to absolve AA of the blame here, I just think the problems start at the very top.

 

I really don't think the franchise is intent on building a model baseball franchise as much as they are in trying to create a buzz and/or hype even though, a well-run baseball operations dept would generate even more interest, ratings and ticket sales in the long run than taking risky shortcuts to achieve short term interest.

[TheHurl]

It would not. You burn an option when you spend 20 days in the minors after being added to the 40 man. I'd like to add to BTS' list is AA's 40 man management (including Nolin). I started in 2011 talking about how it was a mess...mostly because of all the relievers. Dealing assets for non-assets just to make room for a player is not good roster management. I think it's 3 straight off-seasons now where he kept a reliever on the 40 man who would be missing virtually the entire next season. Cut bait on these minor assets (f*** Luis Perez, there are a million of him out there).

[TheHurl]

Funny that we are talking about wasting Nolin's option and Leaffie asking me to spread my wisdom. I just got a text (from someone who has zero sources in the organization but like myself has a lot of friends in ball) saying that the Jays have discussed a trade where they offered up Nolin. He says that he has no idea who for or even a team. Mets asked for him before...could be them.

[TheHurl]

Interesting. Anything else said besides Nolin? Anything?

 

How does he find out about Nolin and nothing else?

 

Don't know. I hear s*** all the time like this. Sometimes it ends up being a twitter rumour (only thing about Nolin on Twitter is his girlfriend posting bikini shots from the Dominican) or just off some stupid blog somewhere. I'm not saying there is any validity to this at all.

 

Exact texts "jays offered up nolan in a deal"

 

my response "Ryan?"

 

Him: "Shawn"

 

Me: "Sean Nolin?"

 

Him: "f*** spelling, no word on who to or who they talked about"

 

Him: "Did you hear the jays talked to the dodgers about kemp. Maybe that is who"

[TheHurl]

Marisnick is raw. He is said to have all 5 tools but he has only consistently tapped into 2 of them. Defense and throwing. Obviously he is young but it doesn't look hes going to make the type of contact needed to tap into what was potentially 20+ homerun power at premium position. I haven't seen much improvement since A-Ball and was baffled that he was called up after a small sample size of success. Lots of swing and miss and doesn't walk. #Sucks

 

DeSclafani has back of the rotation potential. He already has good fastball and slider. The changeup took a nice step forward and he has nice 3 pitch mix. His command should help him move quickly to the bigs. #Intriguing

 

Nicolino is unimpressive to me. I don't see him sticking in the rotation because he gives up to much contact. He really struggled in Double-A and he doesn't have the kind of stuff to miss bats. The fact that he was in the same sentence with Syndergaard and Sanchez is an absolute joke. #Swingman

 

BA has called Marisnick's defense and arm elite and among the best in the minors. That alone puts him above "Sucks" you are also judging him on a season where he was coming off surgery and broke his hand in spring training. he still managed to put up a .294/.358/.502 line in 300 PA's in AA. Yes his aggressiveness got exploited in the majors on a two level jump but he'll get a half year in Vegas and will, at a minimum, put himself into a position of high trade value.

 

Nicolino still has #3 upside...smooth delivery guys that know how to change speeds are valuable in this league. If the curve develops or he adds a slider (like he tried at the end of next year) he's still going to be a starter in the bigs.