Can Ryan Goins stick?

[theblujay]

Goins was a power hitter in high school and college,but his power stroke tailed off dramatically after he got drafted.

 

Hmmmm.. Maybe he needs a dose of some DM cocktail.

 

Good point. Who knows what this guy is capable of.

[GD]

Who knows what this guy is capable of.

 

ahhh this is what I was waiting for

[theblujay]

ahhh this is what I was waiting for

 

Then I think you'll love this: if you're looking for someone who was just decent and an advanced age in the minors and then broke out, look no further than the other hot thread on this board. SABR's very own Josh Donaldson. Now I'm not comparing Goins to him, but he's a perfect example of why one shouldn't give up on these guys before we even see them play. Give the guy a chance

[GD]

Then I think you'll love this: if you're looking for someone who was just decent and an advanced age in the minors and then broke out, look no further than the other hot thread on this board. SABR's very own Josh Donaldson. Now I'm not comparing Goins to him, but he's a perfect example of why one shouldn't give up on these guys before we even see them play. Give the guy a chance

 

Why do you compare two very different players?

 

Why do you bank on the exception, not on the rule?

 

Why should we give a guy a chance when we simply can't afford that risk?

 

Why the f*** am I responding to this? (oh right cause I have homework I'd rather not do)

[theblujay]

Why do you compare two very different players?

 

Why do you bank on the exception, not on the rule?

 

Why should we give a guy a chance when we simply can't afford that risk?

 

Why the f*** am I responding to this? (oh right cause I have homework I'd rather not do)

 

I feel like I've said this 100 times in this thread already. But I'll say it again because, like you, I'm avoiding hw. I'm not banking on anything, and I don't think Goins should be our starting 2B if we can get someone better. It just frustrated me when people were writing him off before he even played a game.

[theblujay]

Donaldson was at one time a well-regarded prospect - KLaw ranked him 76th for 2008. Goins has always been seen as org-filler.

 

That's a massive difference. The two are not at all comparable.

 

I literally said I'm not comparing them. I'm comparing their situation, something Gordie has done with Goins and Thames countless times.

[Jays]

You're saying that because Donaldson overcame the odds, so can Goins.

 

But you're missing something: the rare guys who break the odds (Donaldson, Bautista, Davis, etc.) weren't complete surprises because they at one time were seen as potential Major League starters. Goins has never been seen as having ML tools or having a ML upside. He's just a guy. Every AAA team in baseball has three or four guys just like Goins, he's not special.

 

Oh you say that now but just wait until Goins hits 850 OPS with an 8 WAR next year

[theblujay]

You're saying that because Donaldson overcame the odds, so can Goins.

 

But you're missing something: the rare guys who break the odds (Donaldson, Bautista, Davis, etc.) weren't complete surprises because they at one time were seen as potential Major League starters. Goins has never been seen as having ML tools or having a ML upside. He's just a guy. Every AAA team in baseball has three or four guys just like Goins, he's not special.

 

Goins' upside isn't as high as those guys for that reason, but he could still be a good player. He may not be special, but he's young and happens to be in a situation where he might be considered for a roster spot next year. So I'm rooting for the guy and am optimistic about him because I like rooting for players on the Jays to be the best they can and keep getting better.

[theblujay]

HW? I thought someone with your closed mind would be of an older age.

 

Funny, I would say a lot of you are being closed minded, where I'm trying to stay open minded about Goins and consider traditional stats and SABR stats

[TheHurl]

It just frustrated me when people were writing him off before he even played a game.

 

You do know that many people here watch minor league games right? I'll admit that people here are quick to make assumptions without seeing a player but then there are 100 times more fans that see a player for a very short time and make way bigger assumptions.

[theblujay]

You do know that many people here watch minor league games right? I'll admit that people here are quick to make assumptions without seeing a player but then there are 100 times more fans that see a player for a very short time and make way bigger assumptions.

 

Maybe I just started to get frustrated after a few people starting saying they wanting Goins to fail and there was no chance he could get better.

[theblujay]

Except that you don't consider (or maybe just don't understand) many SABR stats and their value.

 

I haven't gotten much deeper than stats like WAR and FIP

[GD]

Read the entire Fangraphs glossary. It's a good start. I think that should be mandatory on this board.

 

I took like an hour and a half to do this when I started getting into stats and I'm so, so glad I did. The writing is awesome and so easy to understand.

[flafson]

Funny, I would say a lot of you are being closed minded, where I'm trying to stay open minded about Goins and consider traditional stats and SABR stats

 

When people are "right" they are open minded, when people are "wrong" they are closed minded.

It's also the same in politics which is always funny.

[Boxcar]

Maybe I just started to get frustrated after a few people starting saying they wanting Goins to fail and there was no chance he could get better.

 

Sounds like your stance on JP Arencibia at the start of the season.

[theblujay]

Sounds like your stance on JP Arencibia at the start of the season.

 

What's your point? My stance on all Jays players is that I'm rooting for them to perform well and get better.

[Boxcar]

What's your point? My stance on all Jays players is that I'm rooting for them to perform well and get better.

 

http://www.forums.mlb.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?tsn=110&nav=messages&webtag=ml-bluejays&tid=90517

 

"No! Its impossible for JPA to improve!

/s

 

I agree"

 

In response to:

 

"I get it...advanced stats matter for JPA and he's terrible...but they don't mean anything for lind as he is terrible too...lol.

 

JPA will hit 30+ homers this year and he will have lots of strikeouts, but he's going to be a very productive player and improve on his first two seasons.."

 

You think you'd learn.

[GD]

Hah, I tried to go see that but I'm banned.

[bzapple]

http://www.forums.mlb.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?tsn=110&nav=messages&webtag=ml-bluejays&tid=90517

 

"No! Its impossible for JPA to improve!

/s

 

I agree"

 

In response to:

 

"I get it...advanced stats matter for JPA and he's terrible...but they don't mean anything for lind as he is terrible too...lol.

 

JPA will hit 30+ homers this year and he will have lots of strikeouts, but he's going to be a very productive player and improve on his first two seasons.."

 

You think you'd learn.

 

Damnit Boxy, I should report you for linking a thread that contained posts from DJBluRay.

 

Also, who else misses RIPEXPOS?

 

Anyone?

[GD]

Also, who else misses RIPEXPOS?

 

Anyone?

 

Was he the one that called Arencibia the next Gary Carter?

[bzapple]

Was he the one that called Arencibia the next Gary Carter?

 

It's possible but I'm not sure. He was definitely a big JPA booster. Also big on Romero.

 

His opinions didn't tend to work out well.

[Jays]

I miss Grant77

[flafson]

Obviously JP sucked this year, but it's still possible he will develop at one point or another (or never) into a good hitter.

This year, that theory completely failed.

[theblujay]

Wow, that thread was the original Goins thread. So much cringe.

 

From that thread:

 

saskjayfan: JPA doesn't

 

theblujay: Don't bother arguing with them. They have it set in stone to hate JPA, its no use.

 

It is so bad that I have some optimism and don't hate players and root for them to fail?

[John_Havok]

It is so bad that I have some optimism and don't hate players and root for them to fail?

 

Not at all but it would be nice if that optimism was based on something other than an argument that pretty much boils down to " well I haven't seen him fail yet, so he obviously has a a real chance at being good"

[Boxcar]

Damnit Boxy, I should report you for linking a thread that contained posts from DJBluRay.

 

Also, who else misses RIPEXPOS?

 

Anyone?

 

I'd like to converse with him re: Ricky Romero and his bulldoggishness.

[GD]

And we're now seeing his bat outweigh his glove.

 

Off: -5.7 RAA

Def: 5.5 RAA

 

It was fun while it lasted.

[GD]

Same goes for you?

 

Nah I'm in too many leagues as is, but I appreciate the offer.

[G-Snarls]

The defense is legit, no doubt.

 

[Jays]

The defense is legit, no doubt.

 

 

He truly is Johnny Mac 2.0