Brownie19

yeah I picked up on that too. Just focus on the history of the game and how the official scoring used to work.

I see what your saying - but I think hearing he's never worked out is a lot better than hearing that he's been working out a ton over the past 3 years and these are the results.

I C&P this from a Fangraphs article. I thought it was interesting for those historians out there... Pop-boy Smith was credited with his only big-league win on September 21, 1919 when the Cleveland Indians edged the Washington Senators 3-2 in a game that went 13 innings. The home team won, with Al Gould, who pitched the final four innings in relief of Smith, getting the save. How is this possible? According to two experts I queried — SABR’s Jacob Pomrenke and Retrosheet’s David W. Smith — the answer to that question is both simple and complicated. Moreover, the occurrence wasn’t all that uncommon at the time. Per Pomrenke, the official scorer was likely using Henry Chadwick’s original, archaic logic for awarding wins, which is the pitcher that “pitched the most innings” or “did the bulk of the work” in the game. Also per Pomrenke, “Before official scoring became truly official around 1920, there was often no rhyme or reason to how wins and losses were awarded. American League president Ban Johnson had a bad habit of overruling the local official scorers, who could only ‘recommend’ scoring decisions to the league office, which had final approval. Johnson was extremely inconsistent in when and how he overruled the AL’s official scorers.” The modern rule for pitching wins, which includes the starters’ needing to go at least five innings, was formalized in 1950. As for how Retrosheet (which is the source of box scores at Baseball-Reference) handles the assignment of retroactive wins and saves. Smith informed me that their position on wins has been “to follow the officially recorded totals (in the daily player ledgers at the Hall of Fame) even if they would clearly be different today.” Saves are a different story. “The first save rule became official in 1969 and there have been four versions of it,” Smith explained. “For games from 1969 to the present we follow the official totals, just as with the wins, even though there are some strange cases. The 1974 rule was a real mess. For games played before 1969, we chose to agree with Pete Palmer, who first calculated these. For these games, the following criterion was used: The last pitcher on the winning team gets a save, no matter the score, how many innings he pitched, or how effective he was.” Pop-boy Smith earned his only career save by dint of Retrosheet’s pre-1969 criteria. On September 1, 1969, the erstwhile hurler entered in a tie game and pitched the final two innings of a 3-2 Indians’ walk-off win. In other words, “Pop-boy” got his only career save in a game where by modern rules he’d have gotten a win. Then, six days later, he got his only career win in a game where by modern rules he’d have gotten a save.

Just signed on to post this. Jano and Reese are great back there.

J4L19 - isn't it time to give this up? It's not funny anymore.

If you give a Koi fish more space, it will grow....just saying.

Almost hit the "hit it here sign" no?

that's not how racism works.

It's kind of fascinating that it's not illegal when it happens on a baseball diamond - even when fighting isn't 'allowed' (like it is in hockey).

Isn't assault, assault? German's is worse because it's a man hitting a woman? or are we suggesting Odor's was more acceptable because Jose "had it coming to him"?

I doubt anyone would argue that.

I would have said the same thing about Machado last offseason and here he is shiting the bed in 2019...

And Vazquez admits to having sexual encounters with a 13 year old. Good luck in jail bud.

Grant - please provide examples of MVP calibre players returning from injuries who were traded for solid returns. As BTS points out - good luck. Also, please point me to the pitchers with lesser value than Stro who were traded for a better package than SWR + Kay. Are you going to say Puig, Reyes and Logan Allen? JBB, Beer and Martin?

Bo didn't know who Macho Man was either. Pretty sad. Makes me feel old.

I'm confused by this. Is his mother saying that she doesn't have a daughter (named Priscilla)? You're suggesting Priscilla is some spiritual guide that Felipe has made up and she isn't actually a reason person? https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/17/sports/baseball/pittsburgh-pirates-felipe-vazquez-arrested.html That article explains that Priscilla is his half sister, who's also his agent and they live together in the offseason. She looks kinda real to me Ang. WTF?

I see no reason why Gurriel or Teo can't play RF...

I think he's just trying to say that Tulo, Martin, Pillar, Sanchez, Biagini (the fan favourites) weren't worth much in terms of value, when the FO traded them. You can't trade them for 'pennies on the dollar' when they aren't worth s*** to begin with. That's obviously omitting Stro, who had lots of value when traded. Time will tell if we actually traded him for 'pennies on the dollar' of if we got something of value for him. People like Grant suggesting they 'know' we traded them for less than their actual value are fooling themselves. None of us have any idea.

Joe Rogan does.

I have to think it was all about locking him up before he was worth a lot more. Maybe that breakout % was higher in their minds (30%?). No idea. Twins locked up Max Kepler before this year's breakout and I bet everything thinks they are brilliant for it. The probabilities for Kepler were probably very similar to those of Grichuk. That doesn't make Minnesota's FO brilliant and Toronto's stupid.

There's a pretty large difference between the team not being 'in' on big name FA's and the big name FA's not wanting to sign here.... Also - there's very recent precedence of a big name guy signing with a s***** team with a good core of young prospects (Machado)

Clemens was signed 4 years $40M with a opt-out after year 2 (which he exercised - didn't demand his way out) BJ Ryan was in this prime, signed long term to huge money AJ Burnett Paul Molitor Russell Martin How many mega contracts did the Padres sign before Hosmer/Machado? I mean f*** man, most teams don't have a major track record of landing big name guys

https://tht.fangraphs.com/ricky-romero-has-a-story-to-tell/ little story about Ricky Ro here.

Well - he was coming off seasons of 3.0, 2.2, 1.5 and 2.1 WAR and entering his prime (ages 28-30). I suspect there were positive signs of a potential breakout (3-4 WAR player) and they wanted to lock him up before that happened - recognizing if the breakout doesn't happen, then he should remain a 2 WAR player, which isn't so awful for $11M per. If I were to guess, the probabilities were likely: Breakout - 20% Maintain Current - 70% Pumpkin - 10% In 2019 - we got the f***ing pumpkin guys. Does that make this move a bad decision? I'd argue it doesn't - it's just bad results. His GB% is up a bit this year and for some reason the power is gone (otherwise, most of the #'s all look the same). I'd suspect there's a pretty high chance he can make adjustments and return to the 2 WAR level next year - albeit his breakout chances have diminished. If I were to guess, the probabilities for Sogard this year were likely: 2.2 WAR player, Jays best positional player, traded for a couple lottery tickets - 5% Below average bench player - 20% Cut in Spring Training - 75% I mean Sogard came with absolutely no risk, but I'm not going to praise Shatkins for turning him into 2 lottery picks. They got lucky.

This narrative has got to stop. What is this based on? Shatkins didn't sign big name guys in Cleveland? The Jays didn't sign big name guys under Beeston? I mean it's by no means a lock we'll be in on these guys (and maybe we won't obviously), but to rule that possibly out completely is just dumb. Shatkins has never been in this position with the Jays (good, cost controlled young core + lots of budget available). We all have no idea how they'll approach this.