glory

Damn that dude was starting over DS in the playoffs last season. Still not over that.

Over a larger sample it seems LHB's do better against him than RHB. Springer and Turner have good career numbers against him, but those are kinda meaningless when one at age 34 looks like 1997 Joe Carter and the other at age 39 can't hit RHP to save his life anymore. Whatever, vetrins gonna get priority on this team. Kinda wish Rogers cut payroll after the 2023 season. The team probably would have been better off.

Tonight's lineup against a RHP has Springer, Turner, and KK in it. No Horowitz and no Barger. Forget the Buffalo boys, just sign Abreu and call Votto up. Team Washed gonna lead us to the playoffs.

If they don't trade Bo, but somehow go on a magical run with something like this: CA Jansen 1B Vlad 2B Horowitz SS Bichette 3B Martinez RF Barger CF Varsho LF DS DH Turner/Springer ...then yeah, Atkins would look way better. That's a lineup with 7 homegrown guys, plus Varsho who they traded Moreno for. Seems like a very unrealistic expectation, but would be a fun ride if it happened.

I think this is the biggest issue. Even if you truly believe in the Buffalo boys to lead the team on a 2nd half run, how likely is it that they even get a chance to play over KK, Springer, and Turner? Atkins and JS genuflect in front of any vetrin with 6+ years of service time. It's not going to be easy to see a lineup of young guys with the vets on their last legs riding pine. I actually don't think it's necessary to cut bait on Turner and KK, just use them more to their strengths. Turner can still hit LHP. Platoon him. KK can still play defense and run, so make him a pinch runner and defensive replacement who occasionally starts depending on the matchup. Springer is a lot harder to figure out as he doesn't specialize in anything. Either way, the org would have to accept the vets on lesser roles, and I don't think they do that. Maybe desperation can change behavior, though.

If the playoff run comes on the back of the Buffalo guys (DS, Horowitz, Barger, Martinez, etc), and they simultaneously traded Bichette to add multiple long term pieces, then it would certainly bump the FO up a bit. It would show some semblance of success with player development and for once a proactive approach to asset management (trading Bo now instead of waiting a year). That seems very unlikely to happen, though. The Buffalo group might be decent MLB players eventually but they aren’t the Orioles prospects. DS was found money. Not sure we can expect that with other prospects, although I think Horowitz has a good chance to be what he’s shown so far (which plays much better at 2B than 1B/DH). Also I’d be shocked if they traded Bichette if they still had a chance at the WC.

With Yimi throwing 100 or damn close to it, I kinda figured this would happen at some point. Hopefully it's not serious.

Springer has a 32 wRC+ in June (49 PA), after having an 83 wRC+ in Mar-May (216 PA), but shockingly has started all but 1 game in June so far. DS was Barry Bonds for a month and a half, and then went 0-fer in his next 8 games, and that was enough for them to bench him permanently last season, including the playoffs where you kinda need home runs and he was one of the few HR hitters on the team. It's like they want any excuse to play him less. If Biggio wasn't a complete turd at the plate this season, then we'd probably still be seeing DS in a platoon role right now.

Almost feels like this season is an intentional sabotage to force a rebuild but the president and GM only have 1-2 years left on their deals respectively so they have no incentive to do that. Sadly this might be what they feel will help them win games, which is terrifying if this FO is going to stick around long term.

Unfortunately yes. They won’t be perma benching KK so it will be KK/Varsho in the OF against RHP, and JS would rather take a bullet to the chest than bench a vetrin, so Springer and Turner likely won’t be sacrificed either. Hard to see this team actually playing all the young guys at once very often. Probably will cycle the playing time around with vets getting the preferred treatment.

Yeah I’ve said before being a SP on this team has to be infuriating sometimes. You have to be near perfect to even have a chance of winning. Absolutely unwatchable offense.

I don’t think Atkins views the farm system as a mirage as much as he doesn’t want to be in a position where there is a rash of injuries and they have to sign Billy McKinney types to fill holes. In his mind he wants AAA to be well stocked so that if injuries happen they can have prospects fill in. That’s my guess at least. The problem with that is that he chose Turner, KK, IKF, and Vogelbach as his big league signings. Holding prospects back in favor of the most marginal big league talent you can spend $40m on is an issue. I don’t think even Horowitz, Barger, etc, are the answer. They are just better than 39 year old Turner, Vogelbach, etc, and you’re better off giving them a shot hoping one pulls a DS than the alternative. If the prospects fail, and some/most probably will, then no harm done. It’s better than watching an old bad (expensive) team. DS was literally the reason they made the wild card round last year and he didn’t sniff a playoff PA because they loved Biggio too much. Then he began April as a platoon player despite hitting righties better than lefties last season. They actually had a prospect pan out and they did everything they could to marginalize him until they had no choice. Like I said I’m not even sure what the plan is at this point, except that I hope moving forward they just roll with the Buffalo guys.

Is Varsho hurt or did JS actually pinch hit Kirk for Varsho on purpose?

Only ones they'd want are probably Tiedemann and Martinez, which I'd have no issues with, but not sure that would be enough. Others in the system lack the upside that would be enticing in trades unless you want to go further down with guys like Bonilla and Nimmala (neither one is setting the world on fire). Unfortunately it doesn't feel like the Jays have the system to make a blockbuster trade, but I agree, let the White Sox choose who they want. The Jays aren't developing anyone like Robert any time soon, unless someone from the lower minors breaks out.

Robert would add something the Jays need which is ceiling (lots of floor guys in the majors and minors). They need stars and while Robert is flawed in some ways, he still brings star potential on a team friendly deal. I wouldn’t be against it. There’s really no one in the minors I’d consider off limits. Do the Jays have enough to get a deal done? Probably not but it is the White Sox so who knows. Still seems like a Dombrowski move to me.

Barger hit LHP well in the minors over the past 3 seasons. He probably doesn't need to be platooned, but after how they treated DS in April, they probably aren't looking at splits.

Abreu had 120 PA and a 3 (!) wRC+. A completely washed George Springer has a 73 wRC+. That level of decline by Abreu is insane.

Not the 2018-19 Orioles.

Yeah if the Jays are going to be a middling team then do it with young players who might have potential, and even if they bomb, it’s still better than watching past prime vets on their last legs.

Atkins seems obsessed with depth no matter how marginal it is. So in his mind, having a fat DH like Vogelbach in the big leagues while a better player is in AAA to serve as depth makes the team better than having the better player in the Majors and having to find a Vogelbach equivalent to play in AAA. I guess that's not an exclusive trait to Atkins, a lot of GM's do that due to how options work, but he's a big believer in it based on how he's operated this season. There are ways to incorporate the prospects and use the vetrins more to their strengths (ex. platoon Turner with Horowitz, use KK as a 4th OF, etc), but for some reason Atkins wants to live or die with his old 0-1 WAR guys. I couldn't believe Roden started the year in AA given his age, and now it's mid June and he's still there. There's no plan or logic in place at all. As far as the Buffalo (and NH) guys, I think a lot of them possess a high floor, so that likely helps their chances of contributing to the big league roster. The only one whose floor is a little questionable is Orelvis, but he has big time power, so the ceiling might be worth the risk if he can play defense anywhere in the IF. Not sure a lineup with all of DS, Horowitz, Barger, Jimenez, Orelvis, and Roden would be any good, but I don't think that's a pure tanking lineup either. There's probably enough 2ish WAR potential with all of them to be respectable.

Yeah 2024 has been a s*** show. Just awful management from every aspect.

The first two months of the season were a masterclass on how not to build a “sustainable contender”. Platooning the only good hitting prospect you’ve developed in 5 years, keeping a 26 year old down in favor of guys who would be lucky to combine for a 1 WAR by the end of the season, calling up a prospect and immediately putting him at a position he’s never played in his pro life, etc. Unwatchable and poor decision making left and right.

I think he'll end up on the Phillies (they desperately need a CF and Dombrowski is a big move maker), but honestly I'm so underwhelmed with the Jays farm system that if they can sell high on some of them (Orelvis, Tiedemann, etc) for someone with Robert's upside/years of control, then I'd be ok with it even though I don't care for this core. I doubt they have the pieces to make it work though, unless they want to take some bad money or something.

Maybe but ultimately if the team wants to get under the tax, then they’ll have to start trading actual good players. The ones that need to be moved (Turner, KK, Springer, etc) won’t have any value or cost saving potential (maybe a bit with KK if his bat bounces back). I’d look to move Chad Green as well but he might be more of a 2025 trade piece as i don’t think the $10m he’s owed next season is going to be viewed as an asset by other teams, though maybe I’m wrong on that.

Agreed. They were obviously stuck with Springer due to the contract but it’s pitiful that they intentionally dropped nearly $25m on KK/Turner and expected a high floor from that. KK was coming off an offensive season he was unlikely to replicate (nevermind the team already had an elite defensive CF) and Turner is 105 after already starting to slip in 2023. The sad thing is they could probably maximize value out of those two with diminished roles. Use KK as a pinch runner/defensive replacement/4th OF and Turner as a platoon DH who only hits LHP. Springer is harder to use in a reduced role because he doesn’t really specialize in anything but playing less probably couldn’t hurt. Instead they’ll play almost everyday. This team needs to get younger and more athletic in a bad way.