Key22

I get it but chances are you know what an MB is going to do based on an MLB track record. You don't know for sure what a Syndergard is going to do. In many of these prospects you don't know if they will even make it or last 2 years. Many a top flight first round selection everyone was high on turns out to be a bum. Had the Jays kept all of their prospects and not had Dickey, MB, Reyes, Happ they'd be last place. All of the prospects they traded assume we kept. It's not like with that group we would be a WS contender in 5 years because none of the guys we traded are studs (at least no sure fire studs). I think Toronto has to be managed differently than other clubs because so many players have us on the no trade list. The problem with all the prospect talk is all the talk is that so few turn out to be anything. You might draft 3 guys who wind up being solid players in an entire draft. How can you build a WS winner with just a few excellent players? I agree that the balance is poor with too many expensive vets but to be fair most of the expensive vets the Jays have are actually performing reasonably well. I think the Jays are smart not to trade any of their youth. If they finish second and show a good finish and are close to the playoffs then we become attractive to free agents. We can drop guys like Morrow, Lind, Rasmus, Melky and use the money to get some free agents without trading youngsters. The team has some long term and short term potential here - if handled properly the Jays could be very good next year. Considering everyone was thinking we'd finish dead last - the results to me have been positive.

That's possible but until anyone shows some actual evidence that extra money and another year would work on every player the Jays tried to get we won't know. Burnett and Ryan aren't affected by the turf. The Jays can't overpay everyone in years and dollars or we end up with guys like Fielder. Remember all the fans raging and angry that the Jays didn't give Fielder a 10 year $200 million deal? I look at the NET costs. The Jays gave up what 12 prospects for Dickey, Buerhle, Reyes, Happ. Out of those prospects maybe 3 turn out to be good MLB players. None of whom are likely to be as good as the four guys we got. So in terms of MLB service we got the best actual players. Further maybe the Jays trade MB, Reyes, and Dickey and land a bunch of prospects and get 3MLB players back. SO the NET trading gives us 4 good MLB players and 3 MLB players and a lot of cash for 3 MLB players and 9 scrubs. An example would be say a Detroit who wants Bautista. They trade 3 of their top prospects (all in the top 200 let's say) for Jose. But here's the thing Jose is worth 3 top 200 prospects. He plays for Detroit for a year or two and then Detroit decides to trade him to San Francisco and what do you know they get 3 top 200 prospects for him. The prospects are somewhat meaningless because you can get them back later by simply moving the player or maybe you move someone else to retain Bautista. The prospects end up coming back to fill the organization.

Fact the Jays needed a guy who could hit - Valencia was doing that better than the other two guys versus lefty pitching. At a cost of $500k per year. At a cost of two players who could not make the Blue Jays MLB ball team. Giving up AAA (or AAAA) ballplayers like Kratz and Hendriks is hardly mortgaging the future. Headley had back problems and his WAR was coming from defense - I'm not exactly sure how a .229 BA and .296OBP and pathetic crappy .651OPS can generate positive WAR because OPS IS the hitting stat that actually tells you whether the guy is worthing putting into your line-up. The fact that WAR may be comparative to other lousy third basemen who should not be playing pro ball is beside the point. A .651 OPS from a third basemen is dreadful even if he is the Ozzie Smith of third base defense. Lawrie is our third baseman and he would man the position so all defensive war from the player can be ignored. The Jays needed a bat. Francisco has a .797 OPS and 16 bombs - on a team that needs offense why would you trade him for worse offensive players? If you think Francisco is a bad hitter you are not going to love Prado or Headley. Bottom line is all of this is irrelevant because Headley was NOT going to put us into playoff contention. His salary and Prados would just be pissing money down the drain for marginal at best better players than Valencia and Valencia at the time of the deal was hitting considerably better than BOTH of those guys! He costs less in money and we gave up AAA fodder for him. The Valencia trade was a good one. The Reimold pick up was a good one.

He has to because free agents will not sign here. The turf is too hard the dirt is too soft - a bunch of panzy ass athletes. Then there are the chickenshits who didn't want to play in a tough division and get rocked. Or they worry about the tax rate. We can get the PED guy who no one wanted or other scrubs desperate for a job. So he has to trade to get anyone. Everyone whines about all the prospects (soon to be scrubs) we gave up but now also complains that we're not making trades to land overthetop players. Take Buerhle, Reyes, Dickey, Melky, Navarro out of the roster and replace them with all the guys we traded and this would be a dead last place team. Even with the complaining about Reyes he is better than the other two guys who would be manning the position had we kept them. As for giving up too much - that will depend on what they do. Miami just traded some of the so called stud talent we gave them. So they were not exactly impressed either. Trading Alvarez was the one guy I didn't like moving at the time - I sort of understood it thinking he'd be a reliever but I would have tried moving other pieces.

Prado has underperformed. Headly has injury issues. He had a .651 OPS in San Diego. This is hardly a difference maker for a guy who would sit on the bench a couple of weeks for Lawrie to replace him. Valencia makes more sense for a replacement player given he was hitting better than Headley and in the AL. It was a far smarter baseball move at the time. Prado has been awful. Headly is the best of the three but it's not like he is a stud 3-4 hitter who can put a team over the top. He wasn't going to replace a healthy Bret Lawrie. Anyone who thinks Prado or Headley would turn this team into a WS winner is a tool.

I don't know what bautista is complaining about. To get Lester the Jays would have had to trade Bautista. Clearly Boston wanted a controllable right handed bat. Price was pitching for a division rival so that wasn't happening. So exactly who was trade outside of those two who would be an over the top difference maker? Nobody that's who - Cliff Lee? Yeah that would have worked out well. Prado/Headly/Valencia - kinda all the same. Considering the injuries and sucky play from EE, Lawrie, Lind, Morrow, Santos and Delabar and a gaping hole in CF and 2B I'm pretty impressed by how well the team has played. You just can't trade Sanchez and Stroman to a division rival for one year of a pitcher. And I'm pretty sure the asking price for ANYONE remotely good was one or both of those two guys. It's not about money - it's about doing something stupid to try to win this year. If one guy is that much of a difference maker then the team would likely get trounced in the first round anyway.

So is Jansen gone for the year? Is he going to need TJS? What's the scoop?

Colby did the unselfish thing here. It's selfish to always bash the ball right into the shift because you're trying for a double or home run. Bunting or hitting the ball the other way usually means the best you'll do is a single - it's completely unselfish! Further, if you don't want Colby to bunt for a single then stop with the shifts. What Colby did there he should always do - chances are it will help his average and it helps the team - puts a guy on - forces the opposing pitcher to throw more pitches to the next guy and eventually it forces the opposition to stop using the shift - then Colby can rake. If it was 8-0 the pitcher has a point but even then - The rules of such things are usually related to "after the 7th." Things like not taking the extra bass going from 1st to 3rd or stealing when the team is up by 7 after the 7th kind of thing. But 2-0 in the 5th. Now they need to teach Navarro to hit the ball the other way.

The other major problem is that no one on the free agent market wanted to come here. Even now - how many times do you read someone's no trade list of teams - Toronto is always listed as one of the teams. The ONLY way a free agent comes to Toronto is A) they're from Canada Toronto overpays them in BOTH years and dollars - (see Izturas) and C) if Toronto looks like they are spending money and looks like a contender. Players were not coming to Toronto as free agents with 15-20 years of losing and being in a division with spend-aholics like Boston and NY. Sorry but you have to put your place in the player's shoes and if I am a player and I want to win and if I happen to be single I am looking at New York and California (and Miami) Climate, women, weather, lower taxes better teams to win with, more fame (which results in more lucrative advertising deals for the player). If Bautista was in the States he'd be the face of Nike or something for $50,000,000 he won't get in Toronto. So the Jays (and or AA because he's not the only one making decisions clearly) they go and try and fail to sign free agents. So they are forced to make a trade to get a "star" player. In theory, had the Jays won last year or been close then free agents would opt for C - (the Jays have a chance to win). The Jays need to suck it up and have a ten year plan. They need to do what Epstein just did and unload to get top 50 prospects. Bautista, EE, Bautista, Dickey, Jansen, Reyes, Colby, Melky all need to be traded. The latter two before the deadline. The Jays supposedly have scouts so trade them for single A prospects that are generally lower in value as trade chips but may have high ceilings. So you might get two or three single A high quality guys rather than 1 AAA prospect. Teams are looking for bats. Jansen is also a must trade - the guy is going to cost a lot. The Jays are in middle ground - the spend enough to win yes - but they don't have the core talent. There is no "One Player" solution that can turn the team into a contender. The Jays need by my count 4 players that would have to be inserted into the team in order to be able to win (a real Ace, a set-up man, 2B, A RH bench bat). And they don't have either the money or the trade chips to do it. And they need to come back and stay healthy. They should trade Colby - there is no point to having him here if they're not extending him. Maybe they can get one top 50 prospect in return for him - a one for one trade like Marcum for Lawrie. Sweeten the pot and add something else if necessary.

I know it helps the Jays and all but it's pretty bush league of fans to celebrate an injury - I want the Jays to win and all but if the only way we can even have a HOPE to win is for their best players to get hurt then our team isn't worth celebrating. I want a team on the field that can beat a healthy Yankees team. Granted I wish Yankee fans had the same mindset with payroll - my team spends $200million then beating a team with a $50 million payroll is kind of the same thing. Watching Mike Tyson in his prime going boxing glove to boxing glove with a five year old girl isn't much of a sport.

TwistedLogic Didn't you know - we gotta win now. NOW I tell ya. This year is a must win situation! Now I tell ya - now!

Hmm could be the trade in the works - my fantasy Padres Jays trade of epic proportions. To San Diego Daniel Norris Aaron Sanchez Anthony Gose JA Happ, Sean Nolin Deck McGuire Dickie Thon Jr Kyle Drabek Kevin Pillar Dwight Smith Jr Ryan Goins AJ Jiminez Mike Zakurski Jays get Ian Kennedy Jesse Hahn Chase Headly Kevin Quackenbush 3 scrubs to fill holes for the Bisons.

Realistically though the Jays had a very hot month and that month combined with very mediocre performances from the other AL East clubs made us look better than we probably are. If Encarnacion is down and with the atrocious hitting in June/July it actually helps AA in terms of not making a trade that will cripple the farm. Indeed, if the Jays continue to lose - say we lose the next 5-7 in a row and fall to 3rd or 4rth place then rather than buying we might be in a position to sell. With Buerhle having a huge year we might be able to move him and Jansen for a similar package that the Cubs received. Not wishing to be sellers but I just have that gut feeling that we're not making the playoffs with the current team and with Buerhle's contract and Jansen heading for free agency these are both huge sell high options right now. And if we can land a premium positional prospect in return who will be ready really soon - it might be worth it.

Agreed - we don;t have an ace and we're not likely to land one without giving up our four best prospects. And I certainly don't want to trade upper level prospects for number 3 starters. Basically we have 5 guys (when Morrow comes back) who are 3-4 starters and Buerhle who is a number 3 pitching like an ace this year. Split the difference and call him a number 2. Get to the playoffs - lots of things can happen with a good offensive team - big game pressure - maybe EE gets crazy hot at the right time and does his 2 homer a game shtick and we manage to make things interesting. If we has a rotation that had a Halladay in it and we had a 10 game lead then I would consider trading the farm for a Shark or Price because then you go into the playoffs with a rotation of Halladay, Price and Beurhle and suddenly you have a sick 1-2-3 and a great offense. We get Morrow back and you kinda just have to hope for the best and he can dominate like he did at the end of 2012. And to support our rookies a bit - Hutchison and Stroman may not crumble with the pressure. For Stroman everything is pressure at this point and he has pitched very well in the rotation so far against good hitting teams. Hutchison has been very good at times. Beuhrle, Hutchison, Stroman as 1-2-3 isn't terrible.

Mine is gone too and worse - I will be flying to Vegas in July to go to the Star Trek Convention (never been to one and going to play poker in Vegas and when I saw the convention I thought what the heck. I am not an uber fan that knows the names of every episode but I have seen all the Original, TNG, DS9, Voyager episodes and all the movies. So I figure - once in a lifetime kind of thing. It's apparently the biggest one they've done so at least going at the right time. I only wish Patrick Stewart was going - I liked him all the way back to when he was in I, Claudius. Pretty impressive number of the cast going from each of the series. Besides there's a chance you take home a Klingon chick - and how can you pass that up? http://www.creationent.com/cal/st_lasvegas.html#menu

I see a lot of lower picks unsigned - is there anyone besides the first two picks that are deemed to be tough signs or players who will go well above slot if the do sign? Any of the lower picks that you really don't want to lose?

$10 million per is under the going rate for number 4 starters. His overall numbers since being here is still a good deal in terms of contract. The prospects are on AA. But until either prospect actually does something at the MLB level who knows. One of the best homer hitters in baseball hit 2 homers off him. It happens. Jays should be scoring more runs off scrub baseball teams like the White Sox.

I think we have to check the anger at Dickey at the door. We traded a lot for him and he was a CY young winner coming off three seasons where he led baseball in most number of quality starts (3 years not just one). So many were expecting an ace. What he is in the AL is a 1.3 WHIP innings eater who would be a number 3-4 starter on an elite team. If he were on that hypothetical team and was making $10 million per we'd all be very happy with him. The problem is the Jays brass gave up two big time prospects and touted him as a true Ace. So people will go on a rant every time he pitches less than 7 innings and gives up more than 3 runs. The frustration is that Jays fan know the reality that if we make it into the playoffs that our rotation doesn't have an Ace and we know that as good as our offense is that when we face a guy like Tanaka - our offense will get shut down and our number 3/4 starters are likely to give up 3+ runs. And we know the only way to get an ace is to trade our four best prospects (Sanchez, Norris + and +). So we kind of have to ride it out this year - maybe make the playoffs and be "lucky" that our offense gets red hot and guys like Buerhle and Happ and Hutch pitch career games in the playoffs (assuming we get there).

I missed the game but the highlights showed a couple of bloop hits doing the main damage on Hendriks. A bloop just passed Kawasaki and a dunker just in front of Melky. Was he as bad as the numbers?

Apparently AA has been trying to land Francisco for 2 years. They see something. So far I kind of understand why they've been after him. Francisco will probably wind up as the DH next season and can spell guys at 1B and 3B and maybe OF. You play the guys where they do the most good. Lawrie seems like he could play any position. Great jumping throw from second saved 2 runs possibly changed the game. If he doesn't like to play second I can't imagine why not? He seems quite good there.

The guy is a spaz. If he can calm down at the plate and he works with Seitzer to hit the ball where it's pitched then you can dream a bit on the kind of player he can become - the guy works hard - the other parts are there. He's 24. I'd like to see a future Seitzer bat or future Paul Molitor. You see he can hit to all fields and he appears to have the pop for 20 homers. But he's gotta calm down at the plate - maybe play some Reggae before the game and put something special in his brownies or something.

We added Kevin Seitzer. RH Power hitters are hitting the ball to right field a LOT when there is a runner in scoring position. Do that enough and teams can;t use their shifts - once they take down the shift you can rip the ball to your pull side and collect more hits. And most of the guys in the line-up are able to hit homers to the opposite field. It's a lot easier to pitch when you know your team is capable of scoring 5-10 runs most every night. And the team Defense seems a LOT better than it was last year. But yeah there are some holes - but most teams have some holes. I'd still like to see a more solid starter but I think we need to wait until around June 30 to see if we have a legit shot. The real Red Sox may show up and the Yankees aren't going away.

See R.A. Dickey

I would start looking at a bunch of teams falling out of the race. Once you establish which teams are in sell mode then you look at their rotations - see if there are SOLID pitchers who are getting paid too much - you can sometimes get those kinds of guys for less prospects. If the Jays still have financial room they could pick up a bad salary perhaps without having to give up any of their top 10 prospects. I don't think we need the highly touted guys - we just need solid guys who keep you in the game and can get to the 7th without getting lit up. Of course if the Jays brass thinks they're truly a contending team then they're probably going to need to go all in and trade for an Ace because making the playoffs is one thing but you need guys who can shut down the best teams (other playoff teams). You don't really want Dickey as the ace pitching games 1-4-7 against guys like Verlander or Kershaw. You want someone who has a chance at throwing 7-8 shutout innings in a crucial game IMO. So if you're going to trade the farm then trade it for a true ace. Don't trade your best prospects for fringey number 3 types with nice numbers in the NL. Ervin Santan looks like CY Young in the NL. Err Dickey won the Cy Young in the NL. Maybe you look at someone like Cole Hamels - a step down from that (a lot of money and a lot of years left I believe).

AA should just phone the rest of the league and say "which pitcher does Bean want?" Then you know which pitcher you should be trying to acquire. Then offer a bit more. Simple. Surely there must be a decent number 4 pitcher out there someplace. Just a solid 180ip 4.5 ERA guy would pretty solid.