BigCecil

Didn't think it was possible but that presser created the worst of all outcomes for this franchise. Even if his version of the Berrios move is technically accurate, I like Atkins less = snake. And if it is accurate, Schneider has to go. I just don't believe the FO didn't create the environment for Schneider to feel he needed to make that move. And we still only scored 1 run in 18 innings, coupled with horrendous base running. I wonder if Shapiro delayed his media engagement to read the room on the reaction. He can come in and be the demonstrative hero and make change.

This presser will create another round of controversy now. To me itÂ’s unfortunate the Berrios decision will dominate discourse when the even bigger issue for me was scoring 1 run in 18 innings and making 2 questionable outs the bases in key situations.

If JS made that call without a FO directive Omar and Gov and others are vindicated lol and JS needs to go and Atkins should also go for hiring and then extending him. There must also be public square stonings (I kid)

Hate listening to Ross but wouldn’t miss this one. He is being more frank than usual. Heat is on. So JS owns the Berrios call he says. He was not involved. This will open up a bunch more intrigue.

Interesting. Ross throws JS under bus for Berrios decision. At least Mr Roboto is laying it on the line.

Max, you have to admit we got pretty lucky. Jano gets hurt every year and we traded away a pretty handy backfiill named Moreno. Think about in the context comparatively of Rays losing 3 top starters for the year, time from Glasnow and Lowe at 2B and Franco at SS. You are right about 16. But those are freakish years that cant be banked on. Depth is critical. 7 year event then.

We had a uniquely healthy rotation. We even got Ryu and Green back for the pen at the end. They didn't Kirby Yates. Rays lost Springs, Rasmussen and McClanahan. Glasnow missed time. The Yanks rotation, aside from an insane FA signing of Rodon, was problematic. I think MIA used over 10 starters. Seattle lost Ray their #2. Bautista goes down in BAL etc etc. Those teams don't specifically and internationally construct their pitching to be healthy? Thats an objective of every organization I'd bet, but there is a ton of luck involved. Credit is also due. AA did had a freakish year of pitching health too. Yep. I guess its a 7 year event in Toronto As for Manoah - he regressed beyond any expectation, which is a big blow. He needs to get in shape to start and hopefully he can get right. Next year will be interesting. I hope they don't bank on what happened this year and we assemble depth, and Manoah returns.

Concerning if the "under performance" of 3 overweight players and a 34 year old chandelier named Springer is where the fortunes of this team apparently rest. In a season where we had 100 year event health of our pitching staff and line up. And over performance from guys like KK and Belt.

No on mega deal and yes getting very close to decision time. There will be lots of orgs who look at his underlying numbers and see massive upside.

Are you surprised that its 56/44? I'm not on this Board. I voted to fire him but I'm torn myself in the absence of understanding the alternative. I cant stand Ned Flanders pressers and the FO decision on Berrios pisses me off to no end. But its a mixed bag on their performance for me. Lots of solid work and lots to criticize all of which is legit. A lot of people on this Board didn't like AA but its funny he is the GM here that brought back Gibby, which was controversial, after his first tenure. AA wanted a Manager who would push back some. I've heard him interviewed on his reasoning. Charlie and JS especially is just an Org puppet. And thats exactly what Shatkins wants. JS would not be Mgr if he wasn't a puppet, so I dont understand getting mad at him. Even if I think he is useless. I think the main reason I voted fire this year and not last, is I always believe the accountability should be at the top - not on JS or the coaches. The FO makes these decisions. The Berrios thing - the FO hiring of now two puppet Managers, who agreed to follow their directives. The state of the farm and over reliance on free agents, the price paid for a 2 WAR glove first OF'er and a pen arm, the lack of a true organizational edge and identity etc. If they get another year that makes 9 and wouldn't be the worst thing. If he goes I'm fine with that too. Despite the legit criticisms I do think we could do a lot worse.

I agree with this in principle. But they need to be open to creativity and opportunity as this evolves and information is gained. There are so many variables. If he goes all 2021 in '24 the whole the conversation shifts again. There is a possibility of extension discussions. The deadline in '24 and next off season become critical times as his control and thus value erodes, depending on where we are as a team/his production. We watched HOU remain competitive as Springer, Cole and Correa left. I don't want us to get so focused on 1 or 2 players, that we make sugar high decisions.

Some advanced #Analytics for the Wild Card round: Winning team home runs: 10 Losing team home runs: 1

No worries man. Lot of frustrations. I’m in the exact same boat. Keep thinking about it. It’s going to take a day or two before I can get into the teams playing on. Wishing we were there. But it’s always a good distraction. Playoff baseball the best.

Well I think we have beat this to death lol.

No s*** Sherlock. You always do this.lol I know 90 wins is not mediocre in win totals. Who doesn’t? What did the Phillies have last year? 87 But they went to the WS. Thats not a mediocre result. The mediocrity refers to 3 quick play off exits and missing the playoffs by a game the last 4 years. Maybe ownership is happy with that purely as a business. We are competitive. Keep fans in stands and eye balls on TV. I suspect they are. As a fan I’m not wildly excited and it just feels mediocre, even with 89 wins.

De-nial ain't just a river in Egypt. He wasnt saying a bad or good word about Mark and Ross - just how it all goes and went down. This was not a JS decision and he had no ability to stop it, other than taking a bullet. Which i guess he could have done. But they hired him because he does what they say.

Ya, I'm not taking any solace in it either. But it is a fact others had more painful seasons...which is hard to comprehend. This team feels adrift caught in eternal upper echelon 90 +/- 3 wins mediocrity.

For what its worth just listening to David Sampson on Bunkis pod. Said this it was a "Mark and Ross decision" telling JS to pull Berrios to Kooch all designed before the game. Not JS's decision. Its a directive. He also said the logic and math behind it was sound. It just didn't work. This seems obvious to me. Sampson is a pretty fan of Shapiro. At the end of the day we didn't score any runs.

Was just thinking about baseball narratives and how non linear the sport is. After 2021 it was "If only we played at the RC all year and our young core is going to learn so much from this". Fast forward to 2023 to a revamped team - Vlad is getting picked off 2B in playoff game as the tying run with our best hitter up. 2023 was a tough year overall. Some teams with high expectations had worse.

To be fair this org traded two top prospects for him and gave him a $131,000,000 deal. He sucked in 2022 posting 1 WAR and the org stuck by him never ragging him publicly and throwing him out there every 5th day. He gave them 3 WAR back this year. I think he is a really good dude and while upset, I'd like to think he isn't going to forget the orgs treatment of him when he was struggling in '22.

We saw same with Cabrera in game 1. He touched 99 3 times. Adrenaline was pumping. More consistent than normal. 2/3 of an IP 2K.

1. The Manager did not make this decision. It was made by FO and their analytics people. 2. #1 leads us to another issue which is it would good to have a Manager with balls. Unfortunately this FO will not hire such an animal. 3. We scored 1 run in 18 innings even with removal of Berrios, as much as it didn't help the flow of the game. 4. As good as Berrios was, and he was very good, I do think it was only a matter of time before he started getting hit by the LH bats in that line up. A BB and a bomb etc like game 1.

Trying to understand this honestly. What is a "baseball decision" in your view? Approving a large Free Agent contract for a particular player? Making a trade involving a top prospect asset, which has a monetizable value? Going to the Board to ask for approval for a payroll budget and defending the rational and break down of that budget, and most importantly forecasting? Ross could decide to just move a valuable asset like Tiedemann on his own with no involvement or approval from Shapiro? These are duties of a CEO in a pubco. They are accountable to the Board and ownership. Not Ross or JS. To me those are "baseball decisions". I do believe he isn't involved in a baseball decision to send Bowden back down again, or PH Espy, for example. But the idea that he just runs renos, and isn't very involved in decisions around major investments and asset transactions, major roster decisions vis a vis the team does not seem realistic in my experience with pubcos. Buck stops with him.

So much irony in the anger at JS. The decision to pull Berrios was not his call and we scored 1 run in 18 innings. Last year the FO fired Charlie who seemed to be blamed for a lot of things. Maybe the issue(s) isn’t the rotating Managers?

End of the day ultimately the decisions of the coaching staff hired by the FO are on the front office, and they are accountable. Last year the FO chose to fire Charlie in response to team performance. How much rope the ownership gives the FO is the open question now.